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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1634 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 ... 1190 1191 1192 1193 1194 ... 1200 1400 1600 1634 · «PREV / NEXT»
3lion
3lion


Known Hero
posted October 10, 2015 05:12 PM

Storm-Giant said:
GenyaArikado said:
Why are the 7 magic schools bad again? Because they have less spells?

Among other reasons:

- Less spells per school. Something that is furthered aggravated by the overall low amount of spells featured in all three Ubisoft Heroes.
- Less spells per school also mean a more troublemaking Magic Guild. In H7, we see problems when it reaches level 4 spells, where sometimes you get a spell from a school you didn't specialise, but the one that faction prefers. Having two spells in level 4 would easen this problem, but with the limited amount of spells there are in game it just gets worse.
- More skills required just to be able to learn from all seven Schools. This makes designing the skill system a more difficult task, which leads to more restrictions for Magic Heroes.
Now, I know in H7 Ubilimbic tried to lessen this issue through the hero class system, with 6 classes per faction, each hero class could have had different set of schools in their skillwheel, but it ultimately failed in their implementation.
- Less uniqueness Schools. It is much more difficult to make 7 Magic Schools unique and feel different from each other. In H7 they are jack-of-all-trades, and I feel it is better when choosing one or another School changes your gameplay (see Elvin's post about Light Inferno or Sylvan Inferno, etc).



Professor from university which I graduated, kept saying that he could rate my any work as fail and prove it, as well as he could rate the same work as outstanding and also prove it. It depends on a goal you want to achieve, he said. Like hammer is a perfect tool for driving nails but not so good for digging.
What you trying to do now it to prove, that 7 magic schools is bad.
But why not to prove that 7 magic schools is good? What 7 magic schools are good for? If you know that hammer isn't good for digging, why not to try to find what hammer is good for instead?
Let's see...

- More schools = less spells per school which is good, because you have only useful spells while you still have quite many spells in total. You don't have to waste your time flipping pages of your spell book, and you can focus your strategy and tactics around couple spells and master it. Even in H5 where you can specialize in fire magic for instance, you won't use any Chaos spells except fire spells (which are few).

- More schools gives more diversity between heroes and gives them additional uniqueness. Meeting master of Chaos is not the same as meeting master of Air. And not the same as meeting master of Fire. Or Earth. Or Water... You can develop a certain tactics against particular spellcaster. And those tactics will be different depending on magic school in which your opponent specialized. Which is good because it gives you more varied gameplay.

- More schools makes guilds more unpredictable. In a good way. You called it troublemaking, I call it spellhunting mini game. It's the very same beloved element of random: either you are lucky to get wanted spell in your magic guild, or you have to explore the map in search of this spell. Pretty same as a randomness in skill wheel. You either must get the most from skills that Random gave to you, or you have to look for mentor. And I don't even say that even with 4 spell schools there is a randomness in what kind of spell you will get from a top rank Magic Guild.

- More schools gently forces you to spend skill points in one or two magic schools  in order to make it more efficient. Which is not only gives you a chance to play with different magic schools, but also makes you to learn and develop various tactics. Because when you have one Magic School for all damaging spells (for all factions), you will play only with few of them and will never try others.

- Despite the fact that some magic schools in H7 are not as differ as I wish them to be, it will be incorrect to say, that they are not unique at all. They have different aftereffects and different specializations (like air for ranged attacks, fire for melee). And Dark with Prime are not just different from any other schools, they are really unique. And the fact that some classes from some factions are can't master some schools makes it more challenging. So picking a class or a factions changes your gameplay even more with this kind of 'school restrictions'.

See? This hammer is good for driving nails more than digging

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted October 10, 2015 05:15 PM

Maurice said:
GenyaArikado said:
Are they literally unable to cast those spells or just unable to spec dark magic/get dark magic spells from haven towns? Because if its the later i dont see the big deal.


Haven Heroes cannot get Dark Magic as a School skill on the skillwheel and regardless of how much Arcane Knowledge they have, they will never get Dark Spells in their spellbook.

Etore showed a picture of a Haven Hero with a Dark Spell in their spellbook, but if you look closely, it's due to a spell scroll in the Hero's inventory.

I've made sure to get Dark Magic spells in the Mage Guild of some other faction and hired a Haven Hero. While all other spells appeared in that Hero's spellbook, the Dark Magic spells were absent.


I understand. Thats silly.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted October 10, 2015 05:27 PM

3lion said:
Professor from university which I graduated, kept saying that he could rate my any work as fail and prove it, as well as he could rate the same work as outstanding and also prove it. It depends on a goal you want to achieve, he said. Like hammer is a perfect tool for driving nails but not so good for digging.


The problem that has been created is that the tools were pretty much defined before the goal it has to achieve. Erwan himself admitted in one of the interviews that they didn't have a clue in which direction to aim the Heroes 7 game. If you start to create tools without having a clue as to the goal you need to achieve, you're very likely to end up with a hammer when you need to dig, or a shovel when you need to drive in some nails. Forcing the goal to match the tools you've created is backwards thinking - but this is precisely what the Lore (which is holy to them) has forced them into. Seven Dragon Gods, hence seven Magic Schools, one corresponding to each.

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted October 10, 2015 06:29 PM

A nice video about luck and randomness in gaming. After the video reading a few of top comments is also a good idea. So, let's not be afraid of chance-based mechanics.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted October 10, 2015 06:43 PM

Isn't there much of this in H7?
____________

Science isn't about WHY. It's about WHY NOT.

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted October 10, 2015 07:43 PM

PandaTar said:
Isn't there much of this in H7?

I thought mostly of this in terms of skill-system. Besides, I don't feel that there are so many luck-based mechanics, especially in the creature abilities' department. There are very few abilities that are chance-based, or to be more precise, trigerred by critical strikes. There are of course special weeks, that save the situation a little. Overall, the game feels... confined. It tries to replicate the mecanics of previous titles but when it does that, something is blocking it. It still plays quite well, especially with random skill system on, even though it is deeply flawed (3 abilities per one skill limit) but it could have done so many things in a much more decided way, like increasing the variety between the creatures. I may even go as far to say that it feels like devs were afraid to perform certain tasks like giving units more skills...

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3lion
3lion


Known Hero
posted October 10, 2015 08:23 PM

Maurice said:
you're very likely to end up with a hammer when you need to dig, or a shovel when you need to drive in some nails.

Funny thing is that I do not know whether we need to "dig" or "drive nails". Does any one know? In such circumstances talking about how good or bad magic schools are - is simply ridiculous.

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TD
TD


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 10, 2015 09:56 PM

Seven magic schools isn't bad itself, it's just bad execution. The schools currently aren't distinctive and there is no synergy/combinations that you could do with different spells/magic-schools. Not to mention schools only have 7 spells + adventure spell each.

Let's say you throw tsunami in enemy army which makes them soaked. soaked units will take extra damage more electricity and if soaked units are in contact with each other it will chain the damage further like chain-lightning. Soaked units are also more resistant against fire magic. If soaked unit/area get ice-magic cast on it, it will freeze stopping unit from moving and the frozen area will have x% chance for ground units crossing it fall down ending their turn/movement. That is the kind of stuff I would expect after h6, instead they just dumbed down the system.

Or just on the schools like earth magic, make them distinctive
-Erect earth barrier which blocks movement
-Erect earth spire which works like h6 tower for shooter
-quick-sand which slows down or stops movement
-Summon comet to 3x3 area in 3 turns dealing extreme damage

Or make combinations between magic like in h4, maybe even take it further than that to actually combine spells rather than get new ones.

If stuff like this is completely off-limits, why make so many schools? With less schools they would at least feel specialized. It wouldn't feel like some of the cool spells get cut just because it's hard to copy them to other schools so others would have something roughly the same.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 10, 2015 10:12 PM

Pawek_13 said:
A nice video about luck and randomness in gaming. After the video reading a few of top comments is also a good idea. So, let's not be afraid of chance-based mechanics.


That was such a good video. A simple yet clear explanation of why luck is such an important part of games.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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3lion
3lion


Known Hero
posted October 10, 2015 10:15 PM
Edited by 3lion at 22:20, 10 Oct 2015.

TD said:

Let's say you throw tsunami in enemy army which makes them soaked. soaked units will take extra damage more electricity and if soaked units are in contact with each other it will chain the damage further like chain-lightning. Soaked units are also more resistant against fire magic. If soaked unit/area get ice-magic cast on it, it will freeze stopping unit from moving and the frozen area will have x% chance for ground units crossing it fall down ending their turn/movement. That is the kind of stuff I would expect after h6, instead they just dumbed down the system.

It's a good idea but it has nothing to do with quantity of magic schools.

TD said:

If stuff like this is completely off-limits, why make so many schools?

See above.

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TD
TD


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 10, 2015 10:39 PM

@3lion Well yes and no. It has to do with the elements being the magic schools instead of using smaller number of different classification like in h4 and h5. There schools were specialized and really felt different from each other so there wasn't the need to make something special(which would have been simply plus). In h7 on the other hand all schools feel about the same, just different colors and main difference is one or two spells that feel at least little different from others. It makes little difference if you see fire mage or water mage for example, they will all work and feel the same which is the result of the similar spells/spell-schools with this generic system.

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3lion
3lion


Known Hero
posted October 10, 2015 11:01 PM

TD said:
In h7 on the other hand all schools feel about the same, just different colors and main difference is one or two spells that feel at least little different from others. It makes little difference if you see fire mage or water mage for example, they will all work and feel the same which is the result of the similar spells/spell-schools with this generic system.

I simply can't agree here. Spells from these schools are really different. You may see it by simple comparison. The only spell that I can call almost similar is Fire Bolt and Ice Bolt.

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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted October 10, 2015 11:04 PM
Edited by Gryphs at 23:09, 10 Oct 2015.

The problem is not that they are not different it is that they are not different enough to warrant there own school. Some may focus more on damage some may focus more on buffs/debuffs but in the end with a few exceptions that is all you do with them. Spells between schools are not different enough in there effects.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy

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3lion
3lion


Known Hero
posted October 10, 2015 11:15 PM

Gryphs said:
Spells between schools are not different enough in there effects.
It might be true if you speak about Air, Water, Fire and Earth. But it is not true for Dark, Light and Prime.

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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted October 10, 2015 11:18 PM
Edited by Gryphs at 23:20, 10 Oct 2015.

Exactly, the exceptions, the four elemental schools are unnecessary and repetitive. They should instead be fused into one or two specialized schools as they were in H5.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy

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3lion
3lion


Known Hero
posted October 10, 2015 11:28 PM
Edited by 3lion at 23:29, 10 Oct 2015.

Gryphs said:
They should instead be fused into one or two specialized schools as they were in H5.
What for, may I ask? You need a reason. If you do so, you will loose any faction and hero uniqueness. If I know that this particular hero knows Fire Magic, I can prepare myself and develop special tactics against him. For example not to place all my unit in a single row to prevent mass damage from Fire Wall. But if this hero knows, let's say, All Elements Magic, then I don't know what type of magic he will use against me. And this "I don't know" will be true for every hero from every faction...  Not cool.

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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted October 10, 2015 11:37 PM
Edited by Gryphs at 23:40, 10 Oct 2015.

My reason is to cut down the repetitive spells and develop some reason for picking one school over another other than a single spell(or two). In H5 both summoning and destruction magic had "elements" but very different uses choosing one over the other would mean a large difference gameplay wise while choosing fire or water in H7 means you will get a slight variation in spell selection.

About predictability I honestly do not like the fact that at a glance an enemies magic can be instantly countered. If I see an enemy has fire magic and therefore know that the only real strengths of fire magic is its area of effect spells it looses all efficiency in battle. Your enemy has no other cards up their sleeve either as there are so few spells. Ultimately I suppose that is a more personal preference anyway; although, it does effect difficulty to an extent.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy

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3lion
3lion


Known Hero
posted October 10, 2015 11:44 PM
Edited by 3lion at 23:46, 10 Oct 2015.

Gryphs said:
while choosing fire or water in H7 means you will get a slight variation in spell selection.

That's why in H7 you might want to choose another hero instead of picking another school for the very same hero over and over again. Or even a new faction if you want to play a particular game style. And you still have a choice. That's the point, I think. In H7 your game style should change dramatically if you just want to choose another magic school.

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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted October 10, 2015 11:49 PM
Edited by Gryphs at 00:25, 11 Oct 2015.

Mind in H5 certain schools were denied you at high level depending on which faction you played as well. In H7 unless your faction gets a "diverse" school such as light or darkness it will still feel the same as the elemental schools, as far as I have seen and experienced, are to similar to make a difference no matter the faction or hero.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy

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3lion
3lion


Known Hero
posted October 11, 2015 12:12 AM
Edited by 3lion at 00:13, 11 Oct 2015.

Then it means that there is no difference betwen a Hero, who has access to Chaos Magic from H5 only, and a Hero, who has access to two elemental schools from H7.
Imagine that in H7 there are 4 magic school: Dark, Light, Prime, Elemtal. And you still will have heroes with restrictions to elemental magic, or dark, or prime, whatever.. Nothing changes.
So it's not about quantity at all. At all.

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