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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 03, 2016 08:52 PM |
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LucPatenaude said:
Here's an example that youngsters can relate to: Would you settle to the old clunker of G1 Optimus Prime's Freightliner(1970's) truck or to the latest model of a way more performant and new long haul type of a Mack(2000+) truck? I definitely preferred the latest truck model even though the oldest one comes from my own youth's time period.
Wikipedia said:
A 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO serial number 3851GT sold at Bonham's Quail Auction on August 14, 2014 for US $34,650,000.00 ($38,115,000.00 including buyers premium), breaking the record previously held by a 1954 Mercedes-Benz W196R race car, sold for a record $31 million at an auction in England on July 12, 2013. While collectible cars have been sold privately for more, this is the highest price ever paid for a car at a public auction.
LucPatenaude said:
Getting my drift here?
Implying that it makes sense 
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted June 03, 2016 08:53 PM |
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LucPatenaude said:
Modding any further Heroes 3 version 3.x.x is absolute nostalgic foolishness.
Why? Why is foolishness a desire to improve something beyond its original capacity and vision? What does the age have to do with anything?
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 03, 2016 08:54 PM |
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LucPatenaude said:
Getting my drift here?
Not exactly. What I did get, reading this
LucPatenaude said:
Modding any further Heroes 3 version 3.x.x is absolute nostalgic foolishness.
has probably made you some enemies today. This just puts every single mod in question, probably even progress of many of the people here, who rely on these mods. And not just Heroes III, but Heroes II, V, even VII.
And using your quote
LucPatenaude said:
Here's an example that youngsters can relate to: Would you settle to the old clunker of G1 Optimus Prime's Freightliner(1970's) truck or to the latest model of a way more performant and new long haul type of a Mack(2000+) truck? I definitely preferred the latest truck model even though the oldest one comes from my own youth's time period.
I can say this - one could simply mod the truck, if needed. Not only that, but some of the old cars, even if they were produced a lot of years ago, are still being put on auctions, because they are very rare. In this case, people still play Heroes III because there is no better alternative for them; all of the next installments are lacking something, something has either been changed or have an excess of bugs.
Why else hasn't Heroes VII sold better than its predecessors, then? Tell me.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted June 03, 2016 08:56 PM |
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Guys there is no point debating with Luc...
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted June 03, 2016 11:18 PM |
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Edited by Kimarous at 23:18, 03 Jun 2016.
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LucPatenaude said:
Modding any further Heroes 3 version 3.x.x is absolute nostalgic foolishness.
*shakes head and sighs*
I know people probably realize this is the case, but this view is not shared by other pro-Ashan players like myself. I'm in the camp of "every game has its place and people are free to enjoy it regardless of outside opinion."
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
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posted June 04, 2016 12:04 AM |
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And here I am, on the cusp of moving on to tabletop RPGs because I found Heroes lacking. Stone me!
Seriously, apart from dueling withElvin sometimes,I haven't touched Heroes in years. Scary, that.
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Sanity through drugs. Order yours today!
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 04, 2016 12:26 AM |
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LucPatenaude said:
Modding any further Heroes 3 version 3.x.x is absolute nostalgic foolishness.
You can deny opinions, but you can't deny facts. And it's a fact that Heroes 3 is still being played in the current day and age (as you put it: june 3rd, 2016). Considering the age of the game, it has a surprisingly large playerbase still - which is indicative of the quality within that game, even after all these years. Something that not many games manage to achieve nowadays.
Denying this fact is, as you put it, absolute foolishness.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted June 04, 2016 08:20 AM |
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Microsoft, the tech industry are losing too many sales because of you people.
This goes beyond the need to say that foolishness is used in a way that the ancient Status Quo of the single core computer and Win. XP(all editions) and, its compatibility made O.S. for XP called: Win 7(all editions).
This a warning to all who uses Operating Systems older than Windows 8/8.1/10, 2017 is the year that cuts off all that is older than 5 years of age.
For Crying Out Loud, the SmartPhones, MiniTablet computers and, full size Tablets are way more performant than your over-sized tower based desktop machines, people.
OMG! Even the Xbox consoles are reaching their 4th generation officially by 2020 or, even sooner than that. You, all, are ready to let your children and grand-children mock and laugh at you while you are crazy enough to defend your ever lasting Status Quo?
Heroes 3(all modded editions) is merely one of many examples of how stubborn you, young and old are becoming(ex-gamers that is).
Both Microsoft and Apple are fighting a seem-to-be, never ending war against ever growing excess of obsolescence. The makers of personal computers are, basically, begging these software giants at doing something drastic in order to save both hardware and software industries of the right now world as for the near future of it all.
Everything I just wrote, right now, is not fiction or made up. This is cold, hard, truth all over the planet/globe/world.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 08:26 AM |
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Maurice said:
LucPatenaude said:
Modding any further Heroes 3 version 3.x.x is absolute nostalgic foolishness.
You can deny opinions, but you can't deny facts. And it's a fact that Heroes 3 is still being played in the current day and age (as you put it: june 3rd, 2016). Considering the age of the game, it has a surprisingly large playerbase still - which is indicative of the quality within that game, even after all these years. Something that not many games manage to achieve nowadays.
Denying this fact is, as you put it, absolute foolishness.
To be honest though,in terms of gameplay what does h3 has that h5 doesn't? Hexagons? Conflux? The truth is in somewhere in the middle. Sure h3 has good gameplay, but nostalgia is a a pretty big factor nomatter how much you people want to deny it.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 10:27 AM |
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LucPatenaude said:
You, all, are ready to let your children and grand-children mock and laugh at you while you are crazy enough to defend your ever lasting Status Quo?
Just like how current children and grandchildren mock and laugh at people who buy older shows like "Murder She Wrote" on DVD, or people who buy Fallout soundtracks of old-timey music from the 50s and earlier? Oh right, THEY DON'T!
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 04, 2016 10:41 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Maurice said:
LucPatenaude said:
Modding any further Heroes 3 version 3.x.x is absolute nostalgic foolishness.
You can deny opinions, but you can't deny facts. And it's a fact that Heroes 3 is still being played in the current day and age (as you put it: june 3rd, 2016). Considering the age of the game, it has a surprisingly large playerbase still - which is indicative of the quality within that game, even after all these years. Something that not many games manage to achieve nowadays.
Denying this fact is, as you put it, absolute foolishness.
To be honest though,in terms of gameplay what does h3 has that h5 doesn't? Hexagons? Conflux? The truth is in somewhere in the middle. Sure h3 has good gameplay, but nostalgia is a a pretty big factor nomatter how much you people want to deny it.
Some said better art, better lore and even better multiplayer. Not certain if I should believe the last part, though.
I still say and I still believe in this - people still play Heroes III because there is no better alternative. Why do you think people complained, yelled, spammed and are disgusted of Ubisoft for not delivering a proper Heroes game? Because, in their eyes, it's just a shadow of a game, what it should've been. And that's why they are modding something already good.
I'd say the hard truth is that Ubisoft fails to publish proper games (not just Heroes ones) for the people, only certain ones. And the cold truth is that people stopped caring and invest more time in previous games.
Stubborn? Maybe. But Ubisoft is more stubborn in this case.
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 04, 2016 11:02 AM |
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Edited by natalka at 11:13, 04 Jun 2016.
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ChrisD1 said:
To be honest though,in terms of gameplay what does h3 has that h5 doesn't? Hexagons? Conflux? The truth is in somewhere in the middle. Sure h3 has good gameplay, but nostalgia is a a pretty big factor nomatter how much you people want to deny it.
h3 has better RMG, multiplayer.
on the more detailed side:
- no regeneration spell nonsense, the player has to think which units are to be sacrificed
- dragon fly hives and conservatories prevent stale mates
- larger battlefields 165 hexes compared to 120 squares and creatures have different speed (from 3 to 21)
- no town levels which allows for some unique builds for some factions - Rocs and Wyverns day 2 for example.
These words come from a hardcore h5 player. When h3 came out I was too little to appreciate it and moved on. H5 caught me while I was in university and had a lot of fun playing it. I enjoyed it, loved the mental challenge back then as an adult person. Unfortunately the scene kind of faded even while TOH season II was running. I tried the newer games and only after that I returned to h3.
Wow, what a game, what a multiplayer, I was just astonished with the new layers I could exercise my brain on. If h3 caught me while I was more mature I would definitely not try another heroes title. This just makes no sense. As I said before - every heroes after h3 is lacking something.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted June 04, 2016 11:25 AM |
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I would just add few pros for H3:
-you didn't know what is the reward from Utopias, Crypts, etc...
-you didn't know exact neutral stack size, and you had no option to cancel combat before it started
-better game flow: no waiting when combat starts, no waiting when you enter town, no waiting for entering hero screen...
-better ui (I don't mean in aesthetic sense) which in turn adds to better game flow
Some may not consider this pro, but I do: no stupid area of control.
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 12:32 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 12:56, 04 Jun 2016.
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Elvin said:
The argument that H3 multi is essentially single player + final battle is kinda silly. But going by that logic, same should apply to all heroes games. Assuming that the maps one has in mind are as one-dimensional..
thats quite right, and thats one of the reasons why i was yelling "better multiplayer please!" for like ages... even before h5. its too much "before 2000" gaming. we are in a multiplayer age, where people easyly connect each other and enjoy playing a game together. in old times, which h3 born in, we didnt had this. we had all those games mainly focusing to "vs A.I." and it was perfectly fine with that aes technology.
bear in mind that h3 is good because of this too, it was meeting with its ages gaming expectations.
h4 started expermineting things because of good reasons: it should stay fresh. you cant attract new generation, you can only hope to keep old fans, if you stay old. anyway, h4 tried it, but didint really succeed, but it had the right start point to try. it wasnt lost from the beginning. i think thats where all post h4 games fail. they were not only built on legacy, but they were also reliant to existing formula without no fundemental revolutions.
all those small details.. like "are of control", having simple town screens etc etc.. are only changes to outer shell which doesnt have any effect about what im talking about. none of these experiments, innovations after h4 were brave enough to achieve something.
----
now lets drop multiplayer for a second.. what about simgle player experience? how about fighting with neutral stacks? turn after turn, battling with them with nearly no change in gameplay. same battlefields with really small changes.. some visual changes and one obstacle spawning on different square.. h3 was doing this allready 15+ years ago, and during that time, people didnt expected more from heroes. but now? most of the players will not even bother doing that thing 6x times. 1 week of gameplay consisting of repeats, and i exit the game because there are tons of other games i can play on the market, offering interesting, fresh gameplay experience. why should i even bother to play another week of traditional heroes experience when i know i can do something else? if we were in '90s, i would be okay, but we are not.
so.. you guys get where im going with it? h7 could be much more succesful if we were in 90s... but time has passed and gameplay got terribly outdated. h3 did this formula in right time. h7 didnt. this kind of stuff is the reall stuff what post-h3 missed. all those small details doesnt matter when this outdated gameplay remains still.
most of those outer shell changes.. were only important for existing fans.. people like us.. and some of us liked those and some didnt. so naturally it also dropped some of existing fans too. result? no new player attraction, some loss to existing crowd= smaller and smaller fanbase every "new" game.
game is dumbed down for you maybe, maybe not for me... but please try to understand what heroes is truly missing. all those customers in my cafe dont even talk about skillwheel etc etc.. think bigger. focus on being fun.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 04, 2016 12:36 PM |
bonus applied by Maurice on 04 Jun 2016. |
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ChrisD1 said:
To be honest though,in terms of gameplay what does h3 has that h5 doesn't? Hexagons? Conflux? The truth is in somewhere in the middle. Sure h3 has good gameplay, but nostalgia is a a pretty big factor nomatter how much you people want to deny it.
There are plenty of reasons I prefer h3 over h5, I don't consider h5 TotE a bad game, though without its last expansion it sucks big time. Please note that those are just my opinion and they differ from person to person, so you may disagree with me. For start, the games got a different pace, h3 puts more emphasis on logistics (not the skill, but logistics as a whole), you got to carefully plan area coverage, get a better grip on map control and establish a good hero chain, in h5 you got the caravan, so while those move on the map and may be attacked, they remove a layer of strategic depth nonetheless. You may compare the h3 chains to a military logistic system that allows fast transport of troops, while using caravans requires no thought and as well as attacking caravans in h5, the enemy can attack secondary carrier heroes so I don't see anything new added, except a no-brainer in neutral areas.
Heroes V also removed a lot of adventure map buildings, such as lvl 4+ dwellings on the adventure map and adding military posts instead of making separate dwellings for each creature. If they wanted to improve upon h3 in this regard, they should have kept individual dwellings for each creatures plus adding military posts. There are also no adventure dwellings. There are also no more conservatories and hives which were good battle sites that would help you boost your army. Now some people like Proj may say that those were bad as they were decisive for your victory, but not all map templates are pestered with hives and conservatories as he claims. Also there are no dwellings for neutrals, except elemental conflux, that renders the, neutral creatures quite pointless, you can only get them if they join you or if you get them at start, you can't have a steady supply of them and use neutrals as a reliable force.
In heroes 5, most if not all creatures got unique abilities, and when everyone's a special snowflake, no one is Heroes 3 abilities are better due to fact that, 1 major ability that defines the play-style of a creature is better than pushing a ton of them, it gives creatures personality. Just look at h5 cyclops and how many abilities they got. Also h5 has too many active abilities, while if you give them to a few creatures, those may spice up the game, giving them to everyone just makes everything a mess, even more when you give a creature two or more active abilities (if you really want this just give them a spellbook and they got a resource to spend on them and not mindlessly spamming them every turn). I also don't like that the hero himself had a turn and initiative, instead of being able to act freely if it was your creature's turn.
Speaking of battlefields, the hexes offered much more strategical choices than the squares, you got 6 edges instead of 4, that allows for more ways to position and attack your units and diagonal attack on square grids looks a lot worse than on hexes. The battlefields were also bigger and large creatures occupy 2 hexes instead of 4 squares, though that may be only due to the 3d nature of the game, but still it's easier to maneuver large creatures when they occupy only 2 (hex) grids.
Also heroes V quite cut out the numbers of a lot of things. Let's start with spells, from 20+ spells per school in h3, to 13 at most in h5 after TotE. Also it's quite obnoxious to split spells on effects and then restrict those schools on factions, in h3 you got pretty balanced schools effect wise. Heroes V has only 93 artifacts, while Heroes III has 120, that's a pretty significant difference if you ask me. Now let's get to heroes, there is only 1 class per faction which is quite dull and there are only 8 standard heroes per faction instead of 16 in heroes 3. Also 8 towns, while heroes 3 has 9 (it was going to have 10, but forge got scrapped), also more neutral creatures.
Town levels are crap, they take away the unique strategies from the faction, for example wyverns, which you can get on day 2, in late game wyverns are quite squishy for a lvl 6, but fortress in h3 is a early creeper and it helps the faction a lot. Now adding town levels homogenizes the factions a lot, it restricts the build order and make the gameplay a lot more dull, there are less differences between factions. In h5 it is quite impossible to pull out a different build order due to town levels.
Also the cartoony graphic style of h5 is a big turn-off for me, it tries to copy off warcraft and it just make h5 look very generic. Let's say that this is only a question of tastes, but there are some graphic decisions that impair gameplay heavily, the fact that you got to zoom in and rotate the camera to spot adventure map locations which can be easily be missed due to the fact that they are behind a tree or something is a major problem. In h3 you got a clear adventure map, the decorations aren't intrusive and everything is scaled according to its importance. The same problem is present on the battlefield too, if you zoom out enough to see a full view of the battlefield, the decorations on the margins occupy too much of the screen, then you got to zoom in and out and that's quite annoying. In h3 you got a permanent full view of the battlefield and the decorations on the edge of the battlefield aren't occupying too much of the screen.
There are more points I could talk about, but that's enough for now. So I believe that's enough for now to see why I consider h3 to be superior to h5. 
Quote:
so.. you guys get where im going with it? h7 could be much more succesful if we were in 90s... but time has passed and gameplay got terribly outdated. h3 did this formula in right time. h7 didnt. this kind of stuff is the reall stuff what post-h3 missed. all those small details doesnt matter when this outdated gameplay remains still.
h3 hd sold 4 times more copies than h7 in the present day your argument is quite invalid
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted June 04, 2016 12:51 PM |
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You, all, are the plain cold truth of the uselessness of our school system.
All this BS reasoning is entirely based on 1 single phrase that mentioned the name Heroes 3. That sucks big time.
To me, the other 7 phrases of my previous have more impact on all of our daily lives than 1 mere game.
Sure, I push change to happen in the overall technological sense of it all but, at least, I refrain at becoming an enthusiast of the state of the art in computer technologies. There's the pro players that literally eclipse me in game playing to the absolute scariness(you should see their list of games that they mastered ever since the very beginning of the existence of video games.
Just the thought that the majority of pro and, non pro players out there that has absolutely no idea of what the heck is a turn based strategy game, is, mind blowing.
What is even scarier is to become the marketer that worked only at promoting the usefulness of High Tech computing and, why it should be in everybody's home. What scares me the most is seeing up to 67% of current PC users calling computers: Utter Garbage and useless non-sense.
What the heck is the federal government of Canada, once all of ministries' computers go permnently down for the count, will do? It is on Win. XP systems, still. Have you thought of the huge consequences that could bring to this very young country? If I get to think too hard about it, I am afraid of going totally nuts.
Nothing and, I mean totally nothing works without computers around here, people. Complete disruption of life as we know it.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 04, 2016 12:58 PM |
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Does anyone even take this guy seriously anymore? 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 04, 2016 01:11 PM |
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Luc, you're comparing apples with oranges. Operating systems evolve naturally as time passes, due to hardware changes and increased capacities. Games, however, are luxury articles and don't need to change at all. Take a look at chess, that game hasn't evolved in years. Yet, there are still plenty of people who like to play it, some even avidly and on very high skill levels.
I consider the Heroes games like cars. They, too, are luxury items for the most part, especially when looking at the higher branches like Lamborghini and Ferrari and the likes. What we've seen so far is that Heroes 3 did most of it just right. It has its flaws, of course, but for the most part it's a pleasant vehicle to drive in. Subsequent titles have brought changes that made it less pleasant. Either they moved the steering wheel over to the other seat, added 2 extra wheels, made it so that exceeding a certain speed limit requires a special fuel, or braking only being possible if you first quickly turn left and then right just to add "extra skill" to the effort of braking.
Oh, and the extended support date for Windows 7 puts it at 2020, not 2017.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 01:16 PM |
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Elvin said:
The argument that H3 multi is essentially single player + final battle is kinda silly. But going by that logic, same should apply to all heroes games. Assuming that the maps one has in mind are as one-dimensional..
That's bullsnow and you know it best. I know it's hard to give PROJ any credit, but I wholeheartedly agree with him on this one. Yes, every Heroes multiplayer is basically single player vs AI for the most part of the game, the rest being insignificant scout battles or position checks (at best) or just straight out final battle. In that sense, H5 duels removed the unnecessary PvE and delivered the PvP directly. I remember you saying that ever since you discovered the fun of duels you could never return back to standard multiplayer, so why is that exactly if not because of this?
Look, people can go around patting themselves on the back that H3 multiplayer is the greatest because it still has a large player base. It isn't. It's a fallacy to draw that parallel in the first place. The game and the series as a whole weren't made primarily for multiplayer action, especially 15 years ago when multiplayer was much less emphasized than today. But within that game frame there is simply no other alternative, people just play what they get. So not only that I don't find the argument silly, but actually truthful and highlighting an aspect of the game which people keep dodging for various reasons.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 04, 2016 01:52 PM |
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Stevie said:
Elvin said:
The argument that H3 multi is essentially single player + final battle is kinda silly. But going by that logic, same should apply to all heroes games. Assuming that the maps one has in mind are as one-dimensional..
That's bullsnow and you know it best. I know it's hard to give PROJ any credit, but I wholeheartedly agree with him on this one. Yes, every Heroes multiplayer is basically single player vs AI for the most part of the game, the rest being insignificant scout battles or position checks (at best) or just straight out final battle. In that sense, H5 duels removed the unnecessary PvE and delivered the PvP directly. I remember you saying that ever since you discovered the fun of duels you could never return back to standard multiplayer, so why is that exactly if not because of this?
[boring stuff]
You agree because you do not know any better. Also because you've never played real multiplayer and duels certainly do not count. And what you should remember is that when I discovered multiplayer, I could not go back to single player. I had already been playing multi for years before I decided I no longer had the time for real games and the issues that come with finding the right opponents, finishing games in one go(they usually lasted 6-8 hours) and arranging timetables.
I could try explaining why you are being silly but to properly understand me, you'd have to actually play multiplayer, with the right maps. There are a lot more dimensions than creep as fast as possible and build as much as possible that you cannot see atm. But you would be right in that not just any map would give you those considerations as a number of those are like, break garrison week 3, attack opponent. I am not talking about those.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
