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Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
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17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1605 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 ... 1590 1591 1592 1593 1594 ... 1600 1605 · «PREV / NEXT»
Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 19, 2017 01:03 AM

Antalyan said:
That's why dare to claim no rating can ever be objective, at least as long as it's done by humans. Each single review is only the opinion of its writer.


Sales numbers and active number of players should be fairly objective numbers, though. They're not in Heroes7's favor.
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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted March 19, 2017 08:11 AM

Maurice said:
Antalyan said:
That's why dare to claim no rating can ever be objective, at least as long as it's done by humans. Each single review is only the opinion of its writer.


Sales numbers and active number of players should be fairly objective numbers, though. They're not in Heroes7's favor.


Not really? For most strategy games (and old heroes) it's is indeed but for most games you just play them once and are then done with it. Which actually touches upon what I think is the biggest failing of H6-7: this was their approach.
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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted March 19, 2017 08:17 AM
Edited by Gryphs at 08:17, 19 Mar 2017.

H7 did not even get enough people to play it once.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted March 19, 2017 09:54 AM

kiryu133 said:
Maurice said:
Antalyan said:
That's why dare to claim no rating can ever be objective, at least as long as it's done by humans. Each single review is only the opinion of its writer.


Sales numbers and active number of players should be fairly objective numbers, though. They're not in Heroes7's favor.


Not really? For most strategy games (and old heroes) it's is indeed but for most games you just play them once and are then done with it.

Like you said, it's different for strategy games. If people won't bother playing them again that's a big fail.
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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Forge activist
posted March 19, 2017 10:28 AM

Heroes III still has the bigger playerbase and modding scene than any other title but nevermind, god forbid to follow its steps.
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olorin
olorin


Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
posted March 19, 2017 03:58 PM

Anyway, IF lordgraa, Lizard or someone else manages to find a way of modding the game by introducing new factions, campaigns and further graphical improvements, then we should keep our mouths shut.

I still believe that Heroes VII could be highly improved by the smartest fanbase.

Let's see what the future brings, shall we?
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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted March 19, 2017 04:27 PM

Introducing factions and new campaigns is (relatively) easy.

Fixing memory consumption is ehh...
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olorin
olorin


Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
posted March 19, 2017 04:35 PM

Yep. A long time ago I gave up on Heroes V and take a look at magnomagus' mod

Nah, I trust you man

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Famous Hero
posted March 19, 2017 04:35 PM

olorin said:


I still believe that Heroes VII could be highly improved by the smartest fanbase.



I'd like to believe in that as well.
First things first, the bugs in the game should be fixed before going into balancing and adding content.

The only problem seems to be that those who are talented enough don't feel the motivation...

It's really sad because Heroes VII has a ton of potential. Not a programmer per se, but my first impression is that it's much easier to mod than any game in the series. It just needs some love

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Famous Hero
H7 Forever
posted March 19, 2017 04:41 PM
Edited by Maurice at 00:17, 20 Mar 2017.

thGryphn said:

First things first, the bugs in the game should be fixed before going into balancing and adding content.



Completely agree

thGryphn said:

First things first, the bugs in the game should be fixed before going into balancing and adding content.

The only problem seems to be that those who are talented enough don't feel the motivation...


Which group do you belong to?
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Famous Hero
posted March 19, 2017 04:54 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 16:54, 19 Mar 2017.

Antalyan said:

Which group do you belong to?


I honestly don't and cannot count myself as one of those with the talent. I can best describe myself as a pretty good learner but I need an example to follow. That is why I asked in the bugfix thread to reset things and do it in a structured way, so more people knows what's done and how, and so more can contribute.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Forge activist
posted March 19, 2017 05:00 PM

thGryphn said:
The only problem seems to be that those who are talented enough don't feel the motivation...

It's really sad because Heroes VII has a ton of potential. Not a programmer per se, but my first impression is that it's much easier to mod than any game in the series. It just needs some love



H7 showed only contempt to and poor understanding of the series, which is why there isn't much will to give it some love, imo. But maybe someone can make a miracle and I'll end up playing it, who knows (but I highly doubt it).
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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted March 19, 2017 08:07 PM

Galaad said:
Elvin said:
Objectively bad no. Objectively worse yes. Objectively much worse also a distinct possibility.

It's like the term expert AI. My grandmother's mind would be blown. Mine.. wasn't.


"Objectively worse" implies the original wasn't good to begin with, which is not the case. You don't say your neighbor's ****** car is worse than your Ferrari, you just know one works great while the other is a piece of trash that can't even start properly everytime you launch it. One can genuinely prefer the ****** car and even think Ferrari is the actual trash, but I would dare to tell him his opinion is wrong, because objectively the Ferrari is the superior product.

I would have to disagree, since the use of "bad" in this context is a value judgement (not in the moral sense) it is subjective in nature. His opinion is not wrong, he simply values things differently. Maybe he has a wife and five kids, so the Ferrari with two seats would be of little use, even if it was technically superior in every other way. Or maybe he just hates Ferrari for some reason, and could never set his foot in a car like that. The reasoning does not have to make sense to others, it's subjective after all. Most value decisions are based on feelings anyway. I mean, people still buy overpriced Apple products in droves

A common example for subjective value is water vs gold. Most people value gold much higher than water. But if you were dehydrated in the middle of the desert you would be willing to pay almost anything for some water. Water and gold does not have a fixed inherent value, it is subjective. The same is true for games. And even if you can argue for technical, stylistic, narrative or any other form of superiority of one game over another, it can never be objectively "bad" or worse.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Forge activist
posted March 19, 2017 10:31 PM

Brukernavn said:
I would have to disagree, since the use of "bad" in this context is a value judgement (not in the moral sense) it is subjective in nature.


Basically you are saying HOMM-III is not objectively the better game out of 7 because of collective subjectivity. So it's the most popular one but is not intrinsically objective, fine. I could make a Heroes of Cars and Racing it wouldn't objectively be bad either then.

I can't agree with that.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Famous Hero
posted March 19, 2017 11:39 PM

Galaad said:
thGryphn said:
The only problem seems to be that those who are talented enough don't feel the motivation...

It's really sad because Heroes VII has a ton of potential. Not a programmer per se, but my first impression is that it's much easier to mod than any game in the series. It just needs some love



H7 showed only contempt to and poor understanding of the series, which is why there isn't much will to give it some love, imo. But maybe someone can make a miracle and I'll end up playing it, who knows (but I highly doubt it).


Let's, if possible, forget about the fact that it was Ubisoft that developed the game and they did so in the manner (of the process) that they did.

I mean, here we are, there is this game called Heroes VII, with a bunch of bugs, but with a moderately modern 3D engine that yields itself to extensive modding. The game IS a Heroes game, I doubt anyone can contest that. And, (hopefully once the bugs are ironed out), I believe this community can take it and really make it into a game that aligns better with their mindset. A truer Heroes game so to say...

But then again, I circle back and acknowledge that all that is possible only if this community just forgets about Ubisoft and focuses on the game itself. I know, emotions, it's hard, but let's not shoot the messenger, because at the end of the day, this hatred against Heroes VII amounts to that... Instead of trying to revive the horse, we're just beating it to make sure it's dead...

Someone tell me that it's a completely lost cause because for whatever technical reason the game is DOA, and I'll shut up.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted March 20, 2017 12:04 AM

Maybe so. But the thing is that one can mod things on just one map. Anything deeper requires more knowledge, and source code, I think. That and bugs.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted March 20, 2017 12:12 AM

Afaik you can't even fix this underwhelming and completely generic skill system.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Promising
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted March 20, 2017 01:14 AM

I don't have this from personal experience but comments on this forum suggest the H7 AI is a disaster and support has stopped with gamebreaking bugs left in the source code.

So that basically shuts the door for any fanmade revival of the game unless Ubisoft releases the source code. Otherwise the AI cannot be rewritten to catch up with heroes 3 & 5 and gamebreaking bugs left in c++ code cannot be fixed.

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lordgraa
lordgraa


Promising
Famous Hero
The Whisperer
HC SUPPORTER
posted March 20, 2017 09:37 AM

magnomagus said:
I don't have this from personal experience but comments on this forum suggest the H7 AI is a disaster and support has stopped with gamebreaking bugs left in the source code.

So that basically shuts the door for any fanmade revival of the game unless Ubisoft releases the source code. Otherwise the AI cannot be rewritten to catch up with heroes 3 & 5 and gamebreaking bugs left in c++ code cannot be fixed.



You are right and Ubi will NEVER release the code (they will rather go bancrupt). However (at least for me) the game is playable and I finished both campaigns (vanilla + DLC). But ofcourse the crappy/clueless AI will haunt H7 for eternity
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted March 20, 2017 11:35 AM
Edited by Stevie at 11:44, 20 Mar 2017.

Brukernavn said:
Galaad said:
Elvin said:
Objectively bad no. Objectively worse yes. Objectively much worse also a distinct possibility.

It's like the term expert AI. My grandmother's mind would be blown. Mine.. wasn't.


"Objectively worse" implies the original wasn't good to begin with, which is not the case. You don't say your neighbor's ****** car is worse than your Ferrari, you just know one works great while the other is a piece of trash that can't even start properly everytime you launch it. One can genuinely prefer the ****** car and even think Ferrari is the actual trash, but I would dare to tell him his opinion is wrong, because objectively the Ferrari is the superior product.

I would have to disagree, since the use of "bad" in this context is a value judgement (not in the moral sense) it is subjective in nature. His opinion is not wrong, he simply values things differently. Maybe he has a wife and five kids, so the Ferrari with two seats would be of little use, even if it was technically superior in every other way. Or maybe he just hates Ferrari for some reason, and could never set his foot in a car like that. The reasoning does not have to make sense to others, it's subjective after all. Most value decisions are based on feelings anyway. I mean, people still buy overpriced Apple products in droves

A common example for subjective value is water vs gold. Most people value gold much higher than water. But if you were dehydrated in the middle of the desert you would be willing to pay almost anything for some water. Water and gold does not have a fixed inherent value, it is subjective. The same is true for games. And even if you can argue for technical, stylistic, narrative or any other form of superiority of one game over another, it can never be objectively "bad" or worse.


Then I would have to disagree in turn. First off, you're assigning value based on circumstance and necessity, and even then it's still a matter of objectivity. When you compare two cars to find out the better one, you do so with regards to their specs. A guy with a wife and 5 kids would objectively find a family van more useful than a Ferrari, because in the scope of transporting his family a more spacious car is a necessary priority. But even that guy would agree that the Ferrari is still the overall more valuable car because, outside of his own context, it objectively has the better mechanical specs and branding. However, the entire analogy to Heroes is inaccurate as far as context and necessity go, since you don't compare games for what utility you derive, but for what enjoyment, and that's entirely something else (you cannot quantify it).
Also, if someone hates a Ferrari for a subjective reason, that only means that the argument he makes is subjective, not that the inquiry for a better car is innately hinging on subjectivity. Big difference.

The second analogy about water and gold is at the level of apples and oranges, or should I say apples and uranium. First of all, you are comparing two things that have nothing in common, while between the games of the same Heroes series there's ample room for comparison. Second of all, the value of those things depends on context, more exactly on how scarce water would be in a desert (supply and demand). If you had no circumstances of the sort, gold would objectively be more valuable than water. It doesn't even matter if it's an issue of convention, we are not being as reducible as to say that a check of a billion dollars is just a piece of paper. Things have value because they are valuable to us. And again, context between being in a desert and playing a video game is incomparable (if you can afford to play a game with the specs of Heroes 7, then I imagine you have a decent quality of life).

So if we return for just a second to Heroes 7, we can objectively establish that it has memory leaks, bad code, crashes a lot, disconnected art style, badly implemented features, bugs, artificial ineptitude, and those amount to the poor reviews, sales and what other numbers out there, and as far as I can see these are clear indicators that Heroes 7 is a complete failure on its own and worse than other Heroes games by comparison.
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