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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 03:34 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:46, 17 Aug 2014.
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somi said:
I am the one who did not like randomization when it comes to building your character. Its one of few things i hated in older heroes games, as I am a huge RPG fan.
The better for me and harder way to implement would be that you can chose skills and how you want to make your character, but that all skills are useful (more or less, depending of what build you want to make), and not have several ones that are waste of time.
If they do a skill wheel like it was heroes 5, i would really like that some part of it is not random (is it when you choose the main skill, or the secondary skills for the main one, or how it was called).
IMO randomness is part of HoMM replayability, having to adapt to the situation is part of the fun. Plus in H3 I rarely end up with unwanted skills, and even so (sometimes I end up with ONE unwanted but that's really no deal breaker) I have do adapt my strategy and I find it creative and fun  In H5 I think it went to the right direction with secondary skills and I liked the idea of racials even if it was poorly implemented. H6's system ruins it all, at first game you have too much information, after a few you realize that you inevitably end up picking about the same ones over and over again because they are the best possible combination and you walk through an empty map with armies of ridiculous proportions 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 17, 2014 03:47 PM |
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Arugaf said:
Storm-Giant said:
You forgot one of the most important elements: ADVENTURE MAP. In older Heroes games, adv. map was filled with locations and things to visit - be a mine, some guards protecting a resource, a creature bank, a place to improve your hero...in the latest installments we've lost quite a lot of this (the 3D change with 'realism' sizes is also part of the problem).
Yeah, it brings diversity to the map. But in H3 some of the creatures bank was imbalance (especially griffin conservatory). It is very critical because Heroes (like all strategies) is game based on balance.
Well, it was released in 1999, balance wasn't considered as important as of now.
But you're missing the point. It's not about diversity in the map, but doing stuff in the map. Heroes 6 screenshots showed beautiful landscapes, but also huge deserts of interactive objects. The more the player has to do on the map, the better.
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Hotarubi
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 04:05 PM |
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On the subject of skill wheel randomness, there are obvious pros and cons to both. Here's what I'll say:
Regardless of which direction the developers take, for me what really counts is make each skill more or less useful. No homm3 earth magic dominance, no enlightenment and logistics early game necessities, no useless eagle eye skills...
Personally, give me back my homm5 skill system...
What if every level up you pick 2 skills should you choose to do random, and 1 skill if there's an option to have total autonomy?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 17, 2014 04:06 PM |
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Arugaf said:
For me there is a couple of things which is defined M&M Heroes series. Those things is heart, soul and traditions of franchise.
With all respect, this is sort of a moot point. As the discussion in the last page has already excellently shown, what the heart and soul of the game is differs to different players. When we say that we want them to take the "best parts of the old games" and at the same time want them to "retain the heart and soul of the game" we don't really help them, because what are the best parts, and is something by default better in its original implementation rather than later versions? One thing we can all agree on is that we can take any of the previous games in the series - any - and ask whether we want them to make a game exactly like that, and obviously the answer to that would be no, so they have to make those decisions that will leave some players unhappy.
About the Town Portal issue, the lack of proper Town Portal spell was, apart from technical issues and poor AI - the biggest flaw for me in H5. While I know that Town Portal spell can seem (is) cheesy in some regards, spending days or even weeks to have your hero run back and forth over the adventure map to gather troops, spells, or whatever simply is not fun. Was H3 model best solution? Probably not, the difference between getting it and not getting it was just too unfair, not to mention that you needed to pick Earth Magic 100% of your games which was stupid. H5 model might have been made to fit, had they made a "proper" Town Portal spell (where you could choose town) at level 5 as adventure magic, because then it would be free for all. But on bottom line, H6 model is not bad, because it's balanced for all players.
What I do hope is that there will be an option for "No Town Portal" when setting up a game, because it's such a single and isolated feature that can easily be turned off without affecting other parts of the game yet has such a huge impact on gameplay - that way, everybody can choose for themselves whether they want it or not.
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What will happen now?
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Hotarubi
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 04:14 PM |
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Well said Alcibiades.
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somi
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 04:18 PM |
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Edited by somi at 16:41, 17 Aug 2014.
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Galaad said:
somi said:
I am the one who did not like randomization when it comes to building your character. Its one of few things i hated in older heroes games, as I am a huge RPG fan.
The better for me and harder way to implement would be that you can chose skills and how you want to make your character, but that all skills are useful (more or less, depending of what build you want to make), and not have several ones that are waste of time.
If they do a skill wheel like it was heroes 5, i would really like that some part of it is not random (is it when you choose the main skill, or the secondary skills for the main one, or how it was called).
IMO randomness is part of HoMM replayability, having to adapt to the situation is part of the fun. Plus in H3 I rarely end up with unwanted skills, and even so (sometimes I end up with ONE unwanted) I have do adapt my strategy and I find it creative and fun In H5 I think it went to the right direction with secondary skills and I liked the idea of racials even if it was poorly implemented. H6's system ruins it all, at first game you have too much information, after a few you realize that you inevitably end up picking about the same ones over and over again because they are the best possible combination and you walk through an empty map with armies of ridiculous proportions
When it comes to the way you build you character, randomization doesnt add anything to replayability. The thing that adds, is skill design, their balance, and how many different builds you can make and on what they focus. That is true replayability. A random dice roll that chose for you your skill is not. Especially if the skill is broken, not good designed or balanced, as it does not add anything of value to your build
So as said, for me a compromise between the two, one part to be random, other part not, and the most important thing, to make all the skill balanced and designed good, so they can offer different things for different heroes builds/classes.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 17, 2014 04:29 PM |
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In addition to above, I would add that Spell System imo. needs some randomnes, I think that was very clearly shown in H6 and I will be severely disappointed if they stick to manual pick of H6. If they revert to H5 skill wheel system, I think the perfect solution is right in front of them - namely random skills but manual pick perks - this is imo. the solution that gives the best of both worlds, and I'm absolutely amazed if they don't go with that.
It's good because random skill picks improves replayability by not always giving you the same build and because it allows for toning of different factions by making different skills more likely to be offered for some than others. At the same time, manual pick of perks secures that when you get a rare skill combination, you will not be cut off from exciting synergy combinations by a wrong perk being offered, which all too often happened in H5.
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What will happen now?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 04:32 PM |
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somi said:
A random dice roll that chose for you your skill is not.
Actually I think it does, by making you play with skills you wouldn't have normally picked up, or maybe that's just me.
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted August 17, 2014 05:02 PM |
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How abou a petition for random skill wheel?
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Our hopes for Heroes VIII!
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flonembourg
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 05:08 PM |
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There is no problem if the skills and perks are random IF and only if there is no useless perks.
I talk about useless perks because in H5 there is simply no useless skills (OK Leadership if you are a Necromancer but it's the only case).
In H5 there is so many useless perks:
- In the Leadership skills there is almost half of the perks that are useless: diplomacy, recruitment and estates ( not as useless as the others i admit)
- Luck : Spoil of war, tear of asha vision
-Logistics: Navigation (90% of the map there is no water), scouting, silent stalker
-Enlightenment: eagle eyes, scholar
-Destructive Magic: Mana Burst
-Sorcery: magic insight ( except for phantom force), soulfire (for inferno, the worst perk ever lol)
-Defense: chilling bones...
I could continue but i think you see my point.
Randomness or lack of randomness is not the real problem.
Problem is as few members above my post have already said: USELESS PERKS.
And don't forget that in H6 the skillwheel was simply BAD!
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Arugaf
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 05:21 PM |
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alcibiades said:
With all respect, this is sort of a moot point. As the discussion in the last page has already excellently shown, what the heart and soul of the game is differs to different players. When we say that we want them to take the "best parts of the old games" and at the same time want them to "retain the heart and soul of the game" we don't really help them, because what are the best parts, and is something by default better in its original implementation rather than later versions? One thing we can all agree on is that we can take any of the previous games in the series - any - and ask whether we want them to make a game exactly like that, and obviously the answer to that would be no, so they have to make those decisions that will leave some players unhappy.
Well, it's true. But in my post I wrote not just gameplay features of series. They are symbols of Heroes.
I can write a lot of text about "why hex a better than squares" and "why squares better than hex", "why creatures of faction X must be as same like I say", "why heroes 5 initiative battle system better than system in other Heroes games", "why hero should personally participate in battle" and "why he shouldn't" etc
But all those things are not symbols of series. Heroes, creatures, armies, battles, general economic system, turn-based system and many other gameplay components is some kind of "engine" in series which makes Heroes are Heroes.
But 7 resources, 4 primary skills and everything else that i wrote in my post (including full of details adventure map) is exactly what should be from one Heroes game to another. Something special, unique passing through the whole series. Constant feature of the game.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 05:38 PM |
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Arugaf said:
But 7 resources, 4 primary skills and everything else that i wrote in my post (including full of details adventure map) is exactly what should be from one Heroes game to another. Something special, unique passing through the whole series. Constant feature of the game.
+1000
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 05:39 PM |
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@flonembourg
aside from Tear of Asha vision, I wouldn't call anything you listed useless. In fact, I use many of those. Some, on special situations.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 17, 2014 05:40 PM |
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flonembourg said:
There is no problem if the skills and perks are random IF and only if there is no useless perks. (...) And don't forget that in H6 the skillwheel was simply BAD!
While I don't disagree with you that bad perks was an issue, that was not the only issue in H5. Problem was also an overpopulation of perks. As a very specific example, consider the Demon Lord. Demon Lord had access to Ignite perk, which obviously was an awesomely fun perk (buuuuuurn!  ). However, in order to get this perk, you needed Fire Magic (easy, 10% chance), but then started hell: First you needed Master of Fire - that was still not too much of a challenge; if you stacked odds so you knew you would be offered two Fire Magic perks, there was a 67% chance of this to happening. Next up, you needed Secrets Of Destruction, but since Master of Fire opening three new perks, now the individual chance of the right perk coming up was only 1 in 5, which ment that even if you stacked game in your favor by forcing two Fire Magic perks, there was a 60% chance of NOT getting the right offer. And if you managed to get Secrets Of Destruction, then once again you had to get the right perk, and since SOD itself opened 2 new perks, you now only had a 1 in 6 chance of the right perk coming up, or 67% chance of wrong offer with two possible slots!
I think the numebr of times I actually managed to get the Ignite perk can be counted on one hand, and it was not for the lack of trying! And when it came to certain synergy skills that required combinations of more than one specific perks, things could look even worse, which definitely caused a lot of frustration.
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What will happen now?
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted August 17, 2014 05:51 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 17:57, 17 Aug 2014.
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That nice post about how skillwheel in H5 works, but as far as I remember H5 not-so-random number generator, you won't get two random perks abilities during level up. You will get one basic ability and one advanced (if it is possible), so chances, to choose abilities which you want, are even lower.
IMO the problem with H5 skillwheel was RNG. This and only 5 skills per hero and only 3 abilities per skill - it was not enough (I still don't know, why Nival decided to lower number of hero abilites per skill from 4 in beta to 3 in relased game).
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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flonembourg
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 06:05 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I think the number of times I actually managed to get the Ignite perk can be counted on one hand, and it was not for the lack of trying!
I myself encounter such as you describes like a problem.
BUT isn't that sort of issue that made the game even more replayable?
I myself replay lot of time the same map with the same heroes managing to get "guardian angel"
The only issue i see if you don't manage to get a certain perk is to get a uselles perks instead, if you get an "equally strong" perk instead ignite... so what is the problem? you restart the game and... MORE REPLAYABILITY
Joking aside i understand your point.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted August 17, 2014 06:13 PM |
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Elvin said:
Quote:
random system of skills
I prefer random though manual makes sense in an H5 system where random can be too random. I'd still prefer random and I have lost games because the game refused to give me what I want(despite having overwhelmingly good odds) but.. random is more fun There are of course many who hate this amount of randomness.
I do think that there was an art in getting the skills/abilities you wanted in H5. The way you levelled up, like always choosing an ability you want/need for further abilities before the advanced level of a skill. Your great H5 duel maps made me become a master at getting the skills/abilities I wanted to go for.
Randomness all the way.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 06:16 PM |
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hey guys I just openeda thread about the matter so all of this doesn't get lost in the main discussion thread
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 17, 2014 07:33 PM |
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Town Portal is useful, but nothing beats mustering every possible little unit (buying Tavern heroes, spending your last crystal just to trade for a little bit of gold), just so you can defend your city from incoming AI threat. Those little tricks like sending "dummy" heroes only to make your opponent spend a bit of his mana. Defending your town with one Ogre and towers and succeeding. Ah the memories! With an easily accessible TP you won't get those emotions 
And Skillwheel. It was a nice idea back in H5, but it should definitely be more balanced, and like some of you guys said, trying to get some of skills, only to loose a slot for some s*itty perk was really irritating...
Also, maybe they should make each hero even more unique, maybe give each one a mini skill tree or an additional, that-hero-only ability?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 17, 2014 07:51 PM |
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blob2 said:
Also, maybe they should make each hero even more unique, maybe give each one a mini skill tree?
Sounds impossible to balance, let alone the huge amount of work it would cost to have that ingame.
Skillwheel offering more posibilities is the best way to go in my opinion.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
