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Athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 08:23 PM |
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Galaad said:
IMO randomness is part of HoMM replayability, having to adapt to the situation is part of the fun. Plus in H3 I rarely end up with unwanted skills, and even so (sometimes I end up with ONE unwanted but that's really no deal breaker) I have do adapt my strategy and I find it creative and fun  In H5 I think it went to the right direction with secondary skills and I liked the idea of racials even if it was poorly implemented. H6's system ruins it all, at first game you have too much information, after a few you realize that you inevitably end up picking about the same ones over and over again because they are the best possible combination and you walk through an empty map with armies of ridiculous proportions 
I feel exactly the same way. The randomness in H5 skills led to a very high excitement factor with so much riding on the skills you're offered. And I often was able to manipulate things to where I often -- but not always -- got the skill I wanted eventually. And it always enhanced replay, by sometimes having to play a hero who you couldn't optimize with the uber skills of your careful calculation.
I get the impression, maybe wrongly, that those against randomness in skill offerings are munchkins who absolutely must be able to build their cookie-cutter uberbuilds. I did that in H6 and the game quickly grew stale.
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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 08:34 PM |
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SepSpring said:
Watcher looks like a female unit from original "HV" Haven.
Yeah I mentioned the general connection to original H5 as well, it's nice to see them using that inspiration now.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 09:01 PM |
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SepSpring said:
Watcher looks like a female unit from original "HV" Haven.
Holy snow this was original H5 ???
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 17, 2014 09:08 PM |
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Galaad said:
SepSpring said:
Watcher looks like a female unit from original "HV" Haven.
Holy snow this was original H5 ???
Oh how I would like to see "that" Heroes V coming to fruition. Even though, with bankrupting 3DO, the game would be, probably, even more trashed then H4. They've had nice ideas for units, and the "hand-drawn" graphics would stay... But hey, that's just me having a nostalgia attack...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 09:11 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 21:12, 17 Aug 2014.
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It looks so much better !!! ..lol
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 17, 2014 09:14 PM |
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Galaad said:
SepSpring said:
Watcher looks like a female unit from original "HV" Haven.
Holy snow this was original H5 ???
YUP, NWC plans just before 3DO bankruptcy 
Read this 
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 17, 2014 09:17 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 21:19, 17 Aug 2014.
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Galaad said:
It looks so much better !!! ..lol
Here is a little article in polish, you can find some more renders in the net. Jon van Caneghem was making it, Rob King would make the music. One of the most interesting ideas? Core spells plus unique ones for each faction...
Funny thing is, the game even had an idea for a Valkyrie unit, one that many guys here on the forum would like to see in a Heroes game...
PS: Oh, and a Draconic town. Yes, p-l-e-a-s-e!
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ThatHeroesGuy
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 17, 2014 09:26 PM |
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Hi Guys,
long time lurker here, just signed up as an idea came to my mind when thinking about the upcoming H7 so I wanted to share it and know your thoughts about it.
As far as we know from the tidbits of information from the official page and the video content and such, the campaign of H7 will be some sort of divided between the “historic” non-haven campaigns and the haven campaign. The former ones represent past histories of battles fought by the factions and are told by the non-haven counselors with a view to help the Haven main protagonist to improve his strategies and stuff for the upcoming war. The latter one, the Haven campaign, will revolve around some sort of civil war between the duchies of the holy empire and accompany our main hero’s conquests and ascension to the imperial throne.
We can see some heraldry of the Haven duchies on the official webpage www.mmh7.com and we can see Haven knights of the stag and bull duchies on the coloured church window glass on the upper part of the screen there. The stag knights even appear in large numbers in the announcement trailer. When I stumbled upon the map of the duchies and their respective heraldry on celestial heavens
http://www.celestialheavens.com/show_big_potd.php?id=315
I immediately thought “Wouldn’t it be great if we were able to choose the duchy we want to play as when playing as Haven?”
What do you guys think about it?
The new looks of Haven in H7 is quite obviously the looks of the Wolf Duchy, based on the red-black colour scheme and the Dire Wolf core unit. I really love the new look although I also liked the super holy Haven of Heroes 6.
We have seen the Dire Wolf of the Wolf Duchy and know the Griffin of the Griffin Duchy and I think there would be really a lot of room for flavour for the other duchies, it should be quite easy to imagine exciting iconic units for the other duchies.
Add to that different color-schemes for the units based on the heraldry of the duchy and maybe add some minor characteristic variety to the armour, equipment and weapons of the human units of each duchy and we’d have a well-rounded, splendid looking set of armies of all duchies, i.e. Haven sub-factions to choose from which only truly differ in that one iconic animal-related unit and maybe one further, if totally needed (Griffin was elite level, Dire Wolf is core level so some other changes might be needed).
I am not sure how much of an extra effort in terms of development time and costs this would be, probably not a negligible one. On the other hand, the unit animation grids for practically all human units would be identical with mostly only the textures differing, so it might be much less expensive than one might think at first glance.
Although we do not know yet how the final Haven civil war campaign will look like in detail, I feel this would improve the experience tremendously when fighting against not only other duchies’ troops that seem to have disguised in Wolf Duchy clothes and armour and just bearing a different flag colour but if we’d fight against the real troops from that other duchies. This would enrich not only the campaign but also any future user-made scenarios where Haven is pitted against Haven or any kind of human civil war scenario.
I am not sure if or to what extent such an idea is already being under consideration/discussion at Limbic. We heard already that Haven will be able in some way to recruit/join griffins during the campaign, as the griffin duchy will most definitely be involved in the civil war. And I guess other duchies should be as well.
It could be worth to pitch this idea to the devs once the Shadow Council is fully operational later but I guess it also makes sense to know what other people think, beforehand, and hear other ideas or criticism to adjust and refine the concept where needed or to entirely throw it away.
To have this implemented in vanilla would be awesome (although unlikely) but it could also be introduced in the form of future DLCs for individual duchies purchasable for a few bucks or even as an expansion type of thing with all (or let’s say the 4 most prominent) duchies in a further campaign e.g. revolving about further intense conflict between humans.
I am aware that this is an idea that is heavily Haven-centric but with the overall scenario and background given for the campaigns we know so far, this just screams for realization IMO.
The concept of sub-factions might even be expanded to other factions, as we have seen such sub-factions in the Duel of Champions Card Game to some degree. Being able to choose a sub-faction with a few minor twists to the faction's general gameplay would add a lot of variety and replayability to the game IMO and I would definitely prefer something along those lines to alternative upgrades.
Thoughts? Opinions?
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 17, 2014 09:34 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 21:36, 17 Aug 2014.
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@ThatHeroesGuy
Great idea! If it was a campaign map or a scenario it would have a great replayability value. Usually, when you finish a campaign that's that, you won't play it again. Now imagine a board game like map in which you have 6 factions based on Haven, each with their own abilities and units. Nice!
The only downside is that the scenario would influence the cannon. We all know that Duke Ivan will eventually win...
They should really consider such a map, even as an added, alternative plot scenario...
Or, with a powerful enough map editor, the possibilities are limitless...
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Hotarubi
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 10:39 PM |
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It's a great idea, one that's crossed my mind since I first saw the Wolf Duchy direction...
Three things:
1) Timeline. We have approximately one year to develop a game without bugs upon release. Is it plausible? We have yet to see full faction lineups from the factions apparent in the gameplay trailer (i.e. Haven and academy)... not to mention which of the two factions will round up the vanilla release lineup. Take into account bug testing, balancing, and all the other steep slope challenges. Can all this be done in one year? Keep in mind, the time window from which H5 and H6 were first revealed and when they were released were approximately the same amount of time as what we have now for H7's reveal and time-scaled release.
2) Slippery slope. Is it fair that Haven gets the subfactions? If it's done for Haven, there'll be a string of whiny fans asking for more subfactions... Snow Nagas, Water Elves, more traditional evil Necro, more bloodthirsty demons, etc.
3) Balancing. That is all.
So yeah, it's a wonderful idea. But I wouldn't want this to be priority. Given the timeline, I'd want developers to focus on releasing a game that doesn't have noticeable bugs upon release, as 5 and 6 did.
DLC, Expansions (à la ToTE) are all fair game. But for once, I'd want to be able to spend hours on the campaign without having to worry whether I triggered the next cutscene properly.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 17, 2014 10:53 PM |
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Welcome to the forums HeroesGuy You are not the first to think of that, there have been extensive discussions about it prior to the reveal of H7. That would be a cool option to have though the amount of work for making a proper duchy army might prevent the devs from materializing it. Ashan haven has a lot of ornaments so it's not just a matter of changing the emblems/colours but also the duchy accessories, helmets and overall style. Otherwise it would look like a copy paste faction with just a different emblem. Not that I would mind. Another thing that might feel forced would be their heraldic animal in the lineup. Stag, unicorn, bull etc. They would need a unique model and abilities and the resources for that would probably be better spent in more neutral units.
An easier approach might be to divide haven in two, griffin and wolf. So far they have been the more important duchies and they have a clear difference in morality and warfare. That way we could have a more pronounced difference in gameplay and perhaps tactics.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Arugaf
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 11:00 PM |
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Edited by Arugaf at 23:06, 17 Aug 2014.
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Idea is good but I think this should make modmakers. Not developers.
Also not only one Haven can have different armies.
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Darkem
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 11:07 PM |
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Edited by Darkem at 23:10, 17 Aug 2014.
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Quote:
Also not only one Haven could have different armies.
And that could lead us to TOWN alternatives. An option to choose between (for example) "Void" or "Cult" Necropolis. Such an option would be extremely interesting and would increase replayabilty.
Alternatives of town could be switched at some point of the game and give us different upgrades of base units and new champion/new elite.
Examples:
Haven
Wolf vs Griffin
Necropolis
Void vs Cult
Stronghold
"Pure" vs Demonic
Fortress
Rune(-Priest Clan) vs Berserker(s Clan)
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Arugaf
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 11:14 PM |
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Darkem said:
And that could lead us to TOWN alternatives. An option to choose between (for example) "Void" or "Cult" Necropolis. Such an option would be extremely interesting and would increase replayabilty.
Sounds great but it's hard to balance. And too expensive in development.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 17, 2014 11:30 PM |
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Another option is SUBFACTIONS. Every faction has fixed let's say 2 cores, 2 elites, and depending of the subfaction the player choose you have 1 core and 1 elite and 1 champion linked to that subfaction.
So for example, Haven Griffin subfaction would add pikeman (can't think something better now)/griffin/Angel, while Wolf subfaction would be wolf/watcher/Swordbearer.
That would take less resources than whole new factions, and makes more sense too (all variations have a pool of common creatures linked to that faction).
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ThatHeroesGuy
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 18, 2014 12:02 AM |
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Thanks @all for the welcome and the initial feedback so far!
Glad to hear that I am not the only one to have had that idea.
Great minds think alike, if I may say so.
You have brought up perfectly reasonable and acceptable concerns that all have naturally crossed my mind also. The idea of the Haven duchy sub-factions might by one for an ideal world without time and resource constraints.
I am afraid, as Elvin pointed out, that the work necessary to bring that idea to life might be much more extensive than I can imagine but since I have practically zero knowledge about these things I wanted to bring up the idea anyway. It’s exactly the lots of ornaments, accessories and tiny details and difference of style which can be seen on the heraldry in the duchies map that’s so enticing but to bring all this to the screen could indeed by an enormous task.
I agree that it might feel forced or plain boring to just bring the iconic animal of each duchy 1:1 to their army roster. As we have seen the stag knights and bull knights with their characteristic helmets already, these could be fitting although not super interesting candidates for iconic units as well. Raven/Falcon duchy could sport some kind of priest/mage weaving their magic through a raven/falcon companion, Unicorn duchy, being in the proximity to Irollan, could lead real unicorns (maybe lightly armoured) as elite units to battle. I think we could come up with many interesting ideas in a serious brainstorming.
But in the end, it’s probably all a matter of resources.
Bringing even only one iconic unit to the table for each duchy is nearly equal to one full other faction in terms of new models, so I concur with your suggestion, Elvin, of a more feasible approach of dividing haven only into two “sub-factions”, Griffin and Wolf.
In that particular case, I even seriously hope that Limbic is recycling all or many of the H6 Haven units to create a completely playable (in custom games) griffin duchy Haven.
It would of course not be perfectly fair if Haven got such a special treatment of between 2 and 8 subfactions while other factions get none. On the other hand I’d think it could be considered perfectly plausible this time since the final campaign (which seems to feel somehow like the most important one since all others are, in a way, just leading up to it) will likely be strongly centered around the large civil war in the holy empire. And the different duchies are a rather prominent aspect of Ashan lore, much more so than snow nagas or water elves, AFAIK. But I am no Heroes lore person at all, so I might be totally wrong on that and since I am somewhat of a Haven aficionado, my views just might be a little bit biased.
In the end, I would be the last person to want to prioritize such stuff over a bug-free, smooth gaming experience from the release. The resources aspect is often brought up in such discussions and I am often at a loss whether that is truly applicable. I assume the additional work for these duchy subfactions would mostly be only “cosmetics”, i.e. performed by the graphics artists, model designers and animators and not by the programmers or QA people who are those mostly involved in bug hunting and such.
So I’d guess it would be not so much a time issue with respect to lack of time to release but more an issue of purely fiscal nature. Hiring additional graphic artists or expanding the contract with e.g. Puppetworks should to the job, but budgetary constraints might forbid that, of course.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 18, 2014 12:07 AM |
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EvilP said:
Might & Magic Heroes VII Gameplay Demo - IGN Live: Gamescom 2014
Nice inside look on the Magic stuff there. Looks like the 6 schools will be the 4 elemental ones, with Light and Dark added to it. Also, the spells each require a specific rank before you can cast them, so Magic School skills are back as well. I've missed them in H6 for sure .
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 12:18 AM |
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Maurice said:
EvilP said:
Might & Magic Heroes VII Gameplay Demo - IGN Live: Gamescom 2014
Nice inside look on the Magic stuff there. Looks like the 6 schools will be the 4 elemental ones, with Light and Dark added to it. Also, the spells each require a specific rank before you can cast them, so Magic School skills are back as well. I've missed them in H6 for sure .
There will be 7 schools, it is just that faction will probably have 6 schools or less(except maybe Academy which will have all 7 I guess?).
Dark, Light, Fire, Water, Air, Earth and Prime, just like in Heroes 6.
In that video we see 6 schools but that last one is Prime since Haven doesn't have access to the Dark magic.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 18, 2014 12:30 AM |
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RMZ1989 said:
In that video we see 6 schools but that last one is Prime since Haven doesn't have access to the Dark magic.
Ah, nice.
By the way, the video also mentions that Academy is based off of Arabian Nights in style and the Champion bird is called the Arcane Eagle.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 12:39 AM |
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Maurice said:
RMZ1989 said:
In that video we see 6 schools but that last one is Prime since Haven doesn't have access to the Dark magic.
Ah, nice.
By the way, the video also mentions that Academy is based off of Arabian Nights in style and the Champion bird is called the Arcane Eagle.
Well yeah, they pretty much look like Arabs, but I really hope that they will change the name of the bird. It is called Magic Bird(Arcane Bird upgraded) on the H7 site so far, and even Arcane Eagle sounds... well, stupid and unoriginal.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
