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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted August 17, 2014 12:02 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 12:04, 17 Aug 2014.
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alcibiades said:
(what is the Watcher?)
alcibiades said:
but I'm a bit afraid it will turn out a bit too much like the H5 Fortress - there seems to be an awful lot of human units here.
It always has been this way, from H1 to H6. Knight Castle/Haven is about Humans after all. They can have some non-haman creatures like griffins, wolves, angels, ballista or other warfare units, but the core of Haven are Humans: Human with pitchfolk, with sword and shield, on horse, etc.
alcibiades said:
I'm particularly sceptic about the Swordmaster, I must admit that for me, a Champion/level 7 creature needs to be something really powerful, either mythical or otherwise special. If the Swordmaster just turns out to be a really big human with a really big sword (a bit like the nonsense of the "giant dwarfs"/Thanes of H5), it will be a real downer for me.
Perosnally I like human zweihander and it has been in HoMM series from begining:
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 17, 2014 12:14 PM |
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Avonu said:
That didn't really make me any wiser ...
I know there's always been a lot of human units in Haven. Standard since H3 has been 5 humans + 2 nonhumans. Now we have 6 humans + 2 nonhumans, although one of each are voluntary, so I guess that goes either way. Apart from the Swordsmaster, I guess my problem is I have no clue what the roles of the Watcher and the Priest are, making it hard to say whether both are relevant - the feeling I get when looking at their icons are that they would be creatures with similar roles, but then that might just be because I don't understand the Watcher.
I'm well aware of Paladins going back to H1 and H2, and it was never a champion creature I was keen on. The idea that a human creature could stand up to a Dragon or an Angel in a 1:1 matchup (or 2:1 if it has increased growth as some former variants of these have had) just don't strike me as particularly meaningful.
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What will happen now?
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 12:25 PM |
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 12:35 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I'm particularly sceptic about the Swordmaster, I must admit that for me, a Champion/level 7 creature needs to be something really powerful, either mythical or otherwise special. If the Swordmaster just turns out to be a really big human with a really big sword (a bit like the nonsense of the "giant dwarfs"/Thanes of H5), it will be a real downer for me.
I agree. I like Heroes VII's line up (whatever a Watcher is), only Swordmaster as a champion unit is underwhelming imo. At least allow him to upgrade to Paladin, or Berserker or something cool.
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Arugaf
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 12:39 PM |
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Meanwhile, I watched again video from IGN and heard this (8:52):
Quote:
Skills are increased by level-up, you gain skill points, you can increase them.
Seems like it will be a combination of Heroes 5 and Heroes 6 systems with skill points and complex skill wheel (not a random system like in H2-h5). It's very bad for me.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 01:26 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 13:27, 17 Aug 2014.
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Arugaf said:
Meanwhile, I watched again video from IGN and heard this (8:52):
Quote:
Skills are increased by level-up, you gain skill points, you can increase them.
Seems like it will be a combination of Heroes 5 and Heroes 6 systems with skill points and complex skill wheel (not a random system like in H2-h5). It's very bad for me.
Truth is, apart from game's atmosphere we don't see much in this video.. I think where Erwan is completly wrong is that he, though hypocritically, tries to satisfy "fans" (some on offical forums are claiming H6 was the best ever made) when he should try to satisfy the franchise itself. Changing core mechanics of a game that worked so well for so long is no respect towards it, having Ashan was already a bare, I want to hope they don't mess up H7 and just improve what is nice in older games without reinventing the wheel. Hell, I just want some damn replayability for snow sake. Very good news on the other hand is that game would be friendly moddable if I heard well ?
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Arugaf
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 02:17 PM |
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Edited by Arugaf at 14:18, 17 Aug 2014.
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Galaad said:
Truth is, apart from game's atmosphere we don't see much in this video.. I think where Erwan is completly wrong is that he, though hypocritically, tries to satisfy "fans" (some on offical forums are claiming H6 was the best ever made) when he should try to satisfy the franchise itself. Changing core mechanics of a game that worked so well for so long is no respect towards it, having Ashan was already a bare, I want to hope they don't mess up H7 and just improve what is nice in older games without reinventing the wheel. Hell, I just want some damn replayability for snow sake. Very good news on the other hand is that game would be friendly moddable if I heard well ?
For me there is a couple of things which is defined M&M Heroes series. Those things is heart, soul and traditions of franchise.
7 resources (gold, wood, ore, gems, sulfur, mercury, crystal), random system of skills, magic system (based on mages guild and mana resource), 4 primary skills (attack, defense, power, knowledge, NOT might power, magic power, magic defense etc), normal system of map control (no f*ing portals in towns, common unit pool, forts and other stupid ideas) and dynamic (but strategic) battles (I prefer 7 tiers creature-system, cause core-champion system (especially with "heal"-resurrection spells) makes creatures more tanking, therefore battles becomes protracted and boring).
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 17, 2014 02:34 PM |
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Hermes said:
I'm somewhat shocked about the griffins but the insider on the russian forums said that they WILL be available as campaign-only creatures for Ivan.
Good to hear. I still hope they make it as a 'faction neutral' H4 style on normal setup though...
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted August 17, 2014 02:34 PM |
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Nail on the head Arugaf 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 02:40 PM |
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Arugaf said:
For me there is a couple of things which is defined M&M Heroes series. Those things is heart, soul and traditions of franchise.
7 resources (gold, wood, ore, gems, sulfur, mercury, crystal), random system of skills, magic system (based on mages guild and mana resource), 4 primary skills (attack, defense, power, knowledge, NOT might power, magic power, magic defense etc), normal system of map control (no f*ing portals in towns, common unit pool, forts and other stupid ideas) and dynamic (but strategic) battles (I prefer 7 tiers creature-system, cause core-champion system (especially with "heal"-resurrection spells) makes creatures more tanking, therefore battles becomes protracted and boring).
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 17, 2014 02:42 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 14:42, 17 Aug 2014.
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Arugaf said:
7 resources (gold, wood, ore, gems, sulfur, mercury, crystal),
Julien said that reduction of resources was one of the more criticized decisions in H6, first things that fans signaled that they wanted to be changed back. Apart from economic aspects I personally think that it's also an esthetic thing. With more resources there are more objects one the maps, and that makes them simply more diverse, sth H6 maps lacked imo.
Quote:
random system of skills
I like more control, but seeing that people will always pick the same set of skills, randomness is probably better as there will be skills that you won't like, but you'll have to pick them, and that means those won't be pushed on the margin 
Quote:
4 primary skills (attack, defense, power, knowledge, NOT might power, magic power, magic defense etc),
Yes, definitely. Those things add too much confusion, and are simply a bad idea.
Quote:
normal system of map control (no f*ing portals in towns, common unit pool, forts and other stupid ideas)
I concur. While town portals are a weapon for AI popping-up from nowhere, it just makes the game that much easier. And unit pool was also a bad idea when it comes to micromanaging. You have better control when each town/region has it's own number of units...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 17, 2014 02:50 PM |
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Quote:
random system of skills
I prefer random though manual makes sense in an H5 system where random can be too random. I'd still prefer random and I have lost games because the game refused to give me what I want(despite having overwhelmingly good odds) but.. random is more fun  There are of course many who hate this amount of randomness.
Quote:
4 primary skills (attack, defense, power, knowledge, NOT might power, magic power, magic defense etc),
Definitely, for many, many reasons.
Quote:
normal system of map control (no f*ing portals in towns, common unit pool, forts and other stupid ideas)
Disagree about town portals. It is better to implement that mechanic to a town that everyone can access than in the mage guild. Remember H3 town portal? That was so much fun! But also totally broken. Besides, town portals is not a new idea. Remember H3 inferno? New world computing did it first.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 17, 2014 02:50 PM |
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Arugaf said:
For me there is a couple of things which is defined M&M Heroes series. Those things is heart, soul and traditions of franchise.
7 resources (gold, wood, ore, gems, sulfur, mercury, crystal), random system of skills, magic system (based on mages guild and mana resource), 4 primary skills (attack, defense, power, knowledge, NOT might power, magic power, magic defense etc), normal system of map control (no f*ing portals in towns, common unit pool, forts and other stupid ideas) and dynamic (but strategic) battles (I prefer 7 tiers creature-system, cause core-champion system (especially with "heal"-resurrection spells) makes creatures more tanking, therefore battles becomes protracted and boring).
Very true.
I think those elements can be improved (take H5 Skillwheel as an example, and H4 skill system too), but making big changes (like resource reduction) are a big no from me.
You forgot one of the most important elements: ADVENTURE MAP. In older Heroes games, adv. map was filled with locations and things to visit - be a mine, some guards protecting a resource, a creature bank, a place to improve your hero...in the latest installments we've lost quite a lot of this (the 3D change with 'realism' sizes is also part of the problem).
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 17, 2014 03:08 PM |
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Elvin said:
Disagree about town portals. It is better to implement that mechanic to a town that everyone can access than in the mage guild. Remember H3 town portal? That was so much fun! But also totally broken. Besides, town portals is not a new idea. Remember H3 inferno? New world computing did it first.
I absolutely disagree with you
town portals = trolling incarnate and they completely piss on the "strategic" and indeed "adventure" factors of the adventure map
town under siege? main hero threatened? no problem, just grab your troops and portal away to the next one, free of charge! lulz, bye bye
this was easily one of the worst "innovations" of H6. it warped the tactical flow and removed a large element of challenge and consequence
I think town portal should be a very rare high-level mage skill, or otherwise cordoned off even more prohibitively than in H3 so it doesn't sterilize half of the game
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 03:11 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
You forgot one of the most important elements: ADVENTURE MAP.
Absolutely, hope weeks of monsters will be back, at least...
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somi
Known Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 03:12 PM |
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Edited by somi at 15:13, 17 Aug 2014.
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I am the one who did not like randomization when it comes to building your character. Its one of few things i hated in older heroes games, as I am a huge RPG fan.
The better for me and harder way to implement would be that you can chose skills and how you want to make your character, but that all skills are useful (more or less, depending of what build you want to make), and not have several ones that are waste of time.
If they do a skill wheel like it was heroes 5, i would really like that some part of it is not random (is it when you choose the main skill, or the secondary skills for the main one, or how it was called).
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 03:13 PM |
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verriker said:
I think town portal should be a very rare high-level mage skill, or otherwise cordoned off even more prohibitively than in H3 so it doesn't sterilize half of the game
This.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 17, 2014 03:18 PM |
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somi said:
I am the one who did not like randomization when it comes to building your character. Its one of few things i hated in older heroes games, as I am a huge RPG fan.
The better for me and harder way to implement would be that you can chose skills and how you want to make your character, but that all skills are useful (more or less, depending of what build you want to make), and not have several ones that are waste of time.
If they do a skill wheel like it was heroes 5, i would really like that some part of it is not random (is it when you choose the main skill, or the secondary skills for the main one, or how it was called).
It's not the first time this conversation pops up in HC
There are quite a few of us who believe the 'best' skill system would be a skillwheel with choosable perks, leaving a fair amount of randomness and freedom to the player to shape their hero as they wish.
Still, I think skillwheel got a lot of undeserved hate because of how randomness was implemented in Heroes V.
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Pekao
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 17, 2014 03:19 PM |
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Galaad said:
verriker said:
I think town portal should be a very rare high-level mage skill, or otherwise cordoned off even more prohibitively than in H3 so it doesn't sterilize half of the game
This.
Town portal with that Fort Control Area System ruined half of Heroes 6. It just destroyed any strategy from that game.
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Arugaf
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 03:32 PM |
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Elvin said:
Disagree about town portals. It is better to implement that mechanic to a town that everyone can access than in the mage guild. Remember H3 town portal? That was so much fun! But also totally broken. Besides, town portals is not a new idea. Remember H3 inferno? New world computing did it first.
I meant buildings in H6. In H3 portal in Inferno town was a feature of the faction. I have nothing against portal town spell if it will be like in H5.
Storm-Giant said:
You forgot one of the most important elements: ADVENTURE MAP. In older Heroes games, adv. map was filled with locations and things to visit - be a mine, some guards protecting a resource, a creature bank, a place to improve your hero...in the latest installments we've lost quite a lot of this (the 3D change with 'realism' sizes is also part of the problem).
Yeah, it brings diversity to the map. But in H3 some of the creatures bank was imbalance (especially griffin conservatory). It is very critical because Heroes (like all strategies) is game based on balance.
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