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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Sylvan Line-up
Thread: Sylvan Line-up This thread is 79 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 ... 41 42 43 44 45 ... 50 60 70 79 · «PREV / NEXT»
malax83
malax83


Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
posted September 18, 2014 06:44 PM

Sleeping_Sun said:
@War-overlord
Strength - Balance - Fury - CORE:
Strength has a good strategy of Hunter and Snake, like Balance, but Dryad, without Treant might be useless at the beginning. In addition Fury has no one to tank + Treantless Dryad are two bad starting options for Fury. The best core line-up is in Balance, because of its Hunter + Snake combo (trap an opponent and shoot from afar) and Pixie for more attack power. No unit is wasted or without it's role at the beginning of the game.
Grading: B > S > F



First you re pretty ridiculous argueing with tanks units, it s not a Rock-Paper-Scissors, it s far away from known game as RTS. As someone already said, core fury unit have his own synergy with sprites+hunter focused on a single target. You re quite reasonnable but there s also synergy between core and elite line-up, as you said Druid can help ? I was really frustated to see him disappear as this symbol is strong.

Sleeping_Sun said:

Strength - Balance - Fury - ELITE:
Balance and Strength can both use the full potential of entangling enemy units, but Balance has an opportunity to get it more quickly since Treant is Elite. In addition both Balance and Strength have an additional "archer" in the guise of Emerald Warrior (Strike and return ability. Is retribution part a mistake in description?). The real issue is Unicorn, who apparently is not a tank, nor damage dealer, but just anti-magic support. Fury line-up is focused an attack, but the problem is that the units could be too frail. When you also add that they are without a single unit to tank in both Elite and Core units, it is a bit problematic, even though Druid can help there a bit. In a crowded and limited area to move, Blade dancer's ability to damage multiple targets is somewhat not useful, or at least situational, because it would depend on the size and the crowdedness of the battlefield. Deer like Dancers, might be strong attacking units, but frail in terms of HP or defence + their supporting abilities are not explained. Fury line-up reminds me on Blood Furies, who have strong attack but who fall like flies if they are hit, especially if they are hit by damaging spell.
Grading: B >= S > F



Units can be frail whatever if they knock hard, there s no reason to feel it like a disadvantage. And i m guessing the support ability of the moon doe is increasing the initiative or the speed of emerald dragon or treant. Most of this is assumptions but i think "speed" go well with aggressivity, so you re arguement isn t so valuable too.

Sleeping_Sun said:

Strength - Balance - Fury - CHAMPION:
Both Strength and Fury can rely on Dryad and Treant synergy if they are in need of defence, and both can choose Dragon if they are need of attack. However, what is the use of slow/average speed attacker in Fury when it has all the quick, fast, attacking units? Dragon seems redundant. But than again, Even Treant is wasted in Fury, because you get a tanking unit only late game. It is a CORE + CHAMPION combo. You might lost a lot of your units until you get a tank. Strength is in better position than Fury, since it already has an early tank, and that is Snake. Strength can also augment its attacking power by choosing Dragons. However, both are in disadvantage in comparison to the Balance. Phoenix as a tank is better than Treant since it can navigate the mazy battlefield much better, thus it is more strategic unit. Phoenix and rebirth vs. Dryad and Treant are maybe equally viable. But in one case you need 1 unit and in other you need 2 units. If Dryad needs Treant to be useful, than it isn't useful nor practical unit at all. And if balance needs more attacking power a player can always choose a Dragon.
B > S = F



Where is the difference between some "average" and "slow" speed while you re saying u don t know the size of the map. I prefer a background unit as a treant than a fantasy-faerie phoenix.



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hammerhand
hammerhand


Hired Hero
posted September 18, 2014 07:02 PM

malax83 said:


First you re pretty ridiculous argueing with tanks units, it s not a Rock-Paper-Scissors, it s far away from known game as RTS. As someone already said, core fury unit have his own synergy with sprites+hunter focused on a single target. You re quite reasonnable but there s also synergy between core and elite line-up, as you said Druid can help ? I was really frustated to see him disappear as this symbol is strong.


Units can be frail whatever if they knock hard, there s no reason to feel it like a disadvantage. And i m guessing the support ability of the moon doe is increasing the initiative or the speed of emerald dragon or treant. Most of this is assumptions but i think "speed" go well with aggressivity, so you re arguement isn t so valuable too.


Where is the difference between some "average" and "slow" speed while you re saying u don t know the size of the map. I prefer a background unit as a treant than a fantasy-faerie phoenix.





sprites+hunter can't  really stop enemy£¬fast enemy can rush on hunter and sprites are too weak to stop them. druids can help£¬ help themself£¬ because they are shooter too.

if they get blocked£¬they can't reach target because they don't fly or shoot£¬even if they get speeded up. that's why the size and the crowdedness of the battlefield is considered.


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CanWakhan
CanWakhan


Hired Hero
posted September 18, 2014 07:04 PM

Sleeping_Sun said:
jhb said:
Yea, line-up gives a base and speculate is all we can do
When you said "It cannot accomplish its full attacking and damaging potential if it cannot get to the target." I was already imagining something like Kirin's trail of mist and Kappa's jumping attack. Imo, sanctuary played a bit in the "sylvan style".
haha, nice vid. I remember some from H3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G29vSPGbDPY


I have not played H6, so I do not know exactly what is the issue there. But your video gave me something to think about. I'm curious to find out if teleport, remove obstacles, and forcefield spells from H3 will return in H7? It would be very interesting to use them in H7. Manipulating battlefield to gain advantage.

@CanWakhan
Yes, it is related. It is my first Nightwish song I heard and as such it has a special place in my heart.


My favourite spells from H3. With new possibilities in H7 they would make great addition an would be pretty understandable. If you can cast armageddon or implosion or even "stop time" why simple obstacle should defeat you then? Or why not create some to make your opponent's life harder?

I thought so. I think my first song was The Carpenter though Sleeping Sun right ahead.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 18, 2014 10:20 PM bonus applied by alcibiades on 18 Sep 2014.
Edited by Stevie at 07:37, 19 Sep 2014.

A reply to Sleeping_Sun, point by point.



First of all let me tell you that I respect your opinion as a fellow Sylvan lover and I think that, even though our thoughts on the matter are different, we both want what's best for the faction. However I cannot agree with your prose because of some major flaws which you made either deliberately or mistakenly. I will try to analyze your arguments and show you where I consider that things are incorrect or are at least based on heavy assumptions. So here I begin:


Sleeping_Sun said:
Strength - Balance - Fury - CORE:
1 Strength has a good strategy of Hunter and Snake, like Balance, but Dryad, without Treant might be useless at the beginning. 2 In addition Fury has no one to tank + Treantless Dryad are two bad starting options for Fury. 3 The best core line-up is in Balance, because of its Hunter + Snake combo (trap an opponent and shoot from afar) and Pixie for more attack power. 4 No unit is wasted or without it's role at the beginning of the game.
5 Grading: B > S > F


1. The word "might" is indicative of an assumption, that the Dryad without the Treant is useless. If that were indeed the case, that only reason for it would be bad game design, not actual intrinsic flaw. I do not think that the Dryad would be a subpar unit in the absence of the Treant, and I'm quite certain that the devs wouldn't propose it as a creature if that were the case.
2. It's obvious that the distinction between which Line-up has a tank and which doesn't is based on the Snake. I don't see by virtue of what abilities (stats are not revealed so we can't invoke that), but if those were of any indication it is clear as day from the description that its role is disable.
3. Actually, from that point of view, Balance has the biggest shortcoming, and even your choice of constructing that phrase betrays that. Namely that, while I can get behind Ensnare + Shoot, the Pixie with it's Low-damage is useless. If we are to trust the descriptions, super-fast Snakes will strike first and strike far, leaving the Pixie behind with an unfulfilled role. From this point of view, Strength and Fury are more advantaged, because you'd rather have a medium damage Dryad than a low-damage Pixie with a redundant role in the army. Furthermore, the snake role resembles that of a suicide squad, and considering the lack of support abilities you best think of it as an expendable one.
4. Obviously the Pixie is. And you could think of the Hunter having to target rooted units that can't advance into better range as a not so optimal Hunter - Snake synergy
5. My grades: F>= S >= B


Sleeping_Sun said:
Strength - Balance - Fury - ELITE:
6. Balance and Strength can both use the full potential of entangling enemy units, but Balance has an opportunity to get it more quickly since Treant is Elite. 7 In addition both Balance and Strength have an additional "archer" in the guise of Emerald Warrior (Strike and return ability. Is retribution part a mistake in description?). 8 The real issue is Unicorn, who apparently is not a tank, nor damage dealer, but just anti-magic support. 9 Fury line-up is focused an attack, but the problem is that the units could be too frail. 10 When you also add that they are without a single unit to tank in both Elite and Core units, it is a bit problematic, even though Druid can help there a bit. 11 In a crowded and limited area to move, Blade dancer's ability to damage multiple targets is somewhat not useful, or at least situational, because it would depend on the size and the crowdedness of the battlefield. 12 Deer like Dancers, might be strong attacking units, but frail in terms of HP or defence + their supporting abilities are not explained. 13 Fury line-up reminds me on Blood Furies, who have strong attack but who fall like flies if they are hit, especially if they are hit by damaging spell.
14 Grading: B >= S > F


6 3 creatures sharing the same ability of entangle is not exactly something I'd take pride in. It's tactically advantageous, yes, in the way 4 would be even more. But that spells cheesiness more than anything. Plus, elves are hardly regarded as such fighters, the words swift and maneuverable describing them more accurately.
7. Strike and return is pretty neat, no arguing here. Strength probably doesn't have that since there's little reason to believe a typo would stand so much uncorrected. However, if there's anything that could be said here, is that the inability to block your adversary after hitting can be a downside sometimes.
8. Which is such a shame since unicorn is better know for it's blind attack. The fact that it's passive is anti-magic is not such a huge disadvantage but it doesn't make it justice either.
9. Speculation.
10. Having 3 dedicated damage dealers seems to me more of an advantage, because that inevitably transfers into less damage received from less enemy troops. Killing more and tanking less is more often than not better than killing less and tanking more, and I wouldn't put Elves into the tanking more category.
11. True. But conversely, it can be so deadly that it could decide a battle entirely. And in the case where there are 7 enemy troops on the battlefield, that's the most likely scenario. Plus, the psychological and tactical pressure on the enemy will make him think twice and reduce his number of strategies against such an unit.
12. Again, speculation on frailty, which imo is more unfounded than speculating a higher percentage of life as you can see for sturdier animals. But since we have no further information on the issue, I agree we can't make a case for either side.
13. If there's anything that remind me of Blood Furies is actually the Balance Emerald Knight which has both the same ability and the apparent frailty described in the "Creatures of Irollan" blog post (stand-up fights are not their forte)
14. My grading: F > B >= S


Sleeping_Sun said:
Strength - Balance - Fury - CHAMPION:
15 Both Strength and Fury can rely on Dryad and Treant synergy if they are in need of defence, and both can choose Dragon if they are need of attack. 16 However, what is the use of slow/average speed attacker in Fury when it has all the quick, fast, attacking units? 17 Dragon seems redundant. 18 But than again, Even Treant is wasted in Fury, because you get a tanking unit only late game. It is a CORE + CHAMPION combo. 19 You might lost a lot of your units until you get a tank. 20 Strength is in better position than Fury, since it already has an early tank, and that is Snake. 21 Strength can also augment its attacking power by choosing Dragons. 22 However, both are in disadvantage in comparison to the Balance. Phoenix as a tank is better than Treant since it can navigate the mazy battlefield much better, thus it is more strategic unit. 23 Phoenix and rebirth vs. Dryad and Treant are maybe equally viable. But in one case you need 1 unit and in other you need 2 units. 24 If Dryad needs Treant to be useful, than it isn't useful nor practical unit at all. 25 And if balance needs more attacking power a player can always choose a Dragon.
26 B > S = F



15. I agree.
16. The only creature described as "Fast" in Fury is the Stag. You can make an ever better case out of that with the "Super-fast" Snake from Strength and Balance. But either way, suggesting that it would be detrimental only based on that is no different than basing claims on terrible assumptions.
17. I'm not sure what makes it seem redundant, but it can't be its alternative because that fills a different role, Tank.
18. I'm not sure why you made that claim exclusively aimed at the Fury line-up since Strength has it also. That doesn't betray but a biased analysis. And I would like to argue that getting an Elite tank earlier is better than getting a Champion tank later. That's entirely situational and you cannot make a case about that, because obviously getting it earlier is better, but at the same time a bigger tank for the late game is better in its own right. So with Elite Treant you will have a early but bad tank (no support, no heal) while with Champion Treant you'll have a good but late game Tank. Whichever is better depends entirely on how the game unfolds.
19. Not necessarily, that depends on much more than only an earlier tank. And as I said before, killing more of your enemies automatically transfers as receiving less casualties.
20. From what we know for sure, the snake is not a tank but disable. Tankiness out of stats is speculation.
21. I can follow your lines and argue that that damage might come too late. So yet again I see biased narration. The argument itself is flawed like the one that the Tank comes too late for Fury.
22. Fly is situationaly better. But the ability to block the entire enemy's army in a wider area via rooting in place with a sturdy dedicated tank like the Champion Treant, is even better. You can block 2x2 with a Phoenix, with a Treant you can block a line of 2x6. That's 3 times more.
23. That's not true. Phoenix with Rebirth is netly inferior to Dryad Heal for one major reason: Phoenix needs to die completely to revive. If somehow you have 25 Phoenixes and the battle ends with only 1 Phoenix in your stack, the rebirth ability has been completely useless. In fact, human players will plan around that so they will render the Phoenix as useless as possible. In duels or multiplayer they will reduce the numbers of your Phoenix without getting it killed so that it's no threat until they find fit to deal with it after Rebirth. Unlike that downside, you can provide the Dryad heal to your Treant at ANY time!
24. The thing that makes more sense is to think that you get Heal as a bonus combo because of you building Treants. Because in reality that's what happens, the Heal ability doesn't depend on the Dryad as much as it depends on the Treat. If that's not the case and Dryad heal is indeed a core attribute that you can't use by the time you get Treants, then that's bad game design.
25. So can the other 3. That's not an argument in favor of Balance solely.
26. My grades: F > B > S


Sleeping_Sun said:
27 On a battlefield that is a maze You need archers AND fliers to destroy your enemy. 28 If the passageways are crowded with walkers, the battle might be too long.

29 Observing a possible strategy of the three options Balance is the best, Followed by Strength and then by Fury. (Of course this is my opinion).
30Balance is a mix of attack and defence, but its main advantage lies in flyers. Strength is similar to Balance but it lacks fliers. Fury's weakness lies in few Tanks and few fliers. It cannot accomplish its full attacking and damaging potential if it cannot get to the target.


27. Which makes your argument entirely situational.
28. Actually, if there's one thing that spells long and drawn out battles is Entanglefest + many tanks + low damage output. That's exactly the opposite of what the Elves are all about.
29. I see Fury as the best, followed by Ballance and Strength last. Only my opinion.
30. Balance has a good mix of creature with individual abilities, but provides the least Synergy of them all. Strength provides the best Core Synergy and Core/Champion Synergy with the highest Defense potential, at the expense of reduced Offensive abilities and damage potential. Fury provides truckloads of damage at the expense of early game Defense, but with the highest potential for Offense and the Core/Champion Synergy.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 18, 2014 10:36 PM

Wow I think that has got to be the most thorough reply in the history of HC. Thanx for saying everything I wanted to say and then a truck-load more, particularly I have to chime in and say that arguing that Snake is going to be a "tank" seems completely unfounded in everything I have seen so far. The way I envision Snake, it'll be something you either hold back to take out smaller targets or something you send in on a suicide mission to hold up a powerful foe for a while. That's just MY impression, but one guess is as good as the other at this time.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 18, 2014 10:39 PM

Stevie said:
23. That's not true. Phoenix with Rebirth is netly inferior to Dryad Heal for one major reason: Phoenix needs to die completely to revive. If somehow you have 25 Phoenixes and the battle ends with only 1 Phoenix in your stack, the rebirth ability has been completely useless. In fact, human players will plan around that so they will render the Phoenix as useless as possible. In duels or multiplayer they will reduce the numbers of your Phoenix without getting it killed so that it's no threat until they find fit to deal with it after Rebirth. Unlike that downside, you can provide the Dryad heal to your Treant at ANY time!

You never played Heroes IV, did you?
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 18, 2014 10:49 PM

Right, wanted to add that, pretty sure Rebirth will be an activated ability similar to Angel's Resurrection.

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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2014 11:05 PM

Well, in H2, H3, H5 and H6. Phoenixes had to die to use the rebirth ability and that makes a lot more sense. Since they are "reborn from the ashes".
And if you look at the word: re-birth, which means birth again right? It don't make sense to me to "birth" again when you are actually "living".

I think H4 was an exception, for a more balanced unit maybe, but not so coherent with phoenixes' traditional ability, imo.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 18, 2014 11:08 PM
Edited by Storm-Giant at 23:09, 18 Sep 2014.

jhb said:
Well, in H2, H3, H5 and H6. Phoenixes had to die to use the rebirth ability and that makes a lot more sense. Since they are "reborn from the ashes".
And if you look at the word: re-birth, which means birth again right? It don't make sense to me to "birth" again when you are actually "living".

I think H4 was an exception, for a more balanced unit maybe, but not so coherent with phoenixes' traditional ability, imo.

You know that a stack of creatures represents a number of them, not just one, right?

It makes no sense to have to wait to all phoenix to die in order to get all of them back to life. No, it makes much more sense to be able to summon back when some of them had died. The fact that the stack doesn't graphically represents ashes doesn't mean there are no Phoenix dead.
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Raelag84
Raelag84


Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2014 11:09 PM

War-overlord said:

...Opposing them to Emeral Warriors, which at the very least look more appealing. Further more, in our discussion of them on this forum, Marzhin said he'd see if they could be mounted on something. Which gives me slight hope of a possibility of the Unicorn being in anyway or getting a cavalry unit. And I'm a bit of a sucker for cavalry.



This is the only part of the argument that I cannot dispute as you are obsessed with unicorns. I still stand by my statement however.

There is very little difference between strength in fury. As of now emerald knights and blade dancers are both offensive walkers, so can substitute one another easily. Unicorns and deer can also substitute each other, as they are both medium sized herbivores, with horns, that can serve as unmounted cavalry. The pixie and root snake do cannot substitute each other. So there is a difference there.

If you don't trust any of this, remember what our insider friend said. That all sylvan line ups would be offence oriented.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 18, 2014 11:15 PM

Raelag84 said:
If you don't trust any of this, remember what our insider friend said. That all sylvan line ups would be offence oriented.

I ain't voting for tactics. I vote for lore and flavor.
____________
Iron from Ice.

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Alex_Yakub
Alex_Yakub


Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2014 11:17 PM

War-overlord said:
Raelag84 said:
If you don't trust any of this, remember what our insider friend said. That all sylvan line ups would be offence oriented.

I ain't voting for tactics. I vote for lore and flavor.

This. Tactics are not that important if the faction is done boring. At least, it is so for me.
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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2014 11:17 PM
Edited by jhb at 23:22, 18 Sep 2014.

Storm-Giant said:
jhb said:
Well, in H2, H3, H5 and H6. Phoenixes had to die to use the rebirth ability and that makes a lot more sense. Since they are "reborn from the ashes".
And if you look at the word: re-birth, which means birth again right? It don't make sense to me to "birth" again when you are actually "living".

I think H4 was an exception, for a more balanced unit maybe, but not so coherent with phoenixes' traditional ability, imo.

You know that a stack of creatures represents a number of them, not just one, right?

It makes no sense to have to wait to all phoenix to die in order to get all of them back to life. No, it makes much more sense to be able to summon back when some of them had died. The fact that the stack doesn't graphically represents ashes doesn't mean there are no Phoenix dead.


So h2, h3, h5 and h6 didn't make sense, only h4? Because that was the case. I'm not talking about what the graphics represent, seriously.
iirc, in H4 they hadn't to die! You could heal you living phoenix. If you had only 1 phoenix in your army, you could heal him with rebirth. And THAT makes no sense to me.
If they add a restriction where at least one unit need to die or a fraction of the total, this would help to keep the things right. It should work more like a self resurrection, than a heal.

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nerevar
nerevar


Adventuring Hero
posted September 18, 2014 11:19 PM

Stevie said:
the Pixie with it's Low-damage is useless.

Am I the only one who read "small" as describing the Pixie, not the damage it deals?

Quote:
7. Strike and return is pretty neat, no arguing here. Strength probably doesn't have that since there's little reason to believe a typo would stand so much uncorrected.

Other than the fact the typo in Strength's Dryad description is still present (sinergy instead of synergy like in Fury)?

Quote:
with a Treant you can block a line of 2x6. That's 3 times more.

Isn't that pure speculation at this point?

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blizz
blizz


Known Hero
of temper grace
posted September 18, 2014 11:20 PM

Sleeping_Sun said:
@War-overlord
Strength - Balance - Fury - CORE:
Strength has a good strategy of Hunter and Snake, like Balance, but Dryad, without Treant might be useless at the beginning. In addition Fury has no one to tank + Treantless Dryad are two bad starting options for Fury. The best core line-up is in Balance, because of its Hunter + Snake combo (trap an opponent and shoot from afar) and Pixie for more attack power. No unit is wasted or without it's role at the beginning of the game.
Grading: B > S > F

Strength - Balance - Fury - ELITE:
Balance and Strength can both use the full potential of entangling enemy units, but Balance has an opportunity to get it more quickly since Treant is Elite. In addition both Balance and Strength have an additional "archer" in the guise of Emerald Warrior (Strike and return ability. Is retribution part a mistake in description?). The real issue is Unicorn, who apparently is not a tank, nor damage dealer, but just anti-magic support. Fury line-up is focused an attack, but the problem is that the units could be too frail. When you also add that they are without a single unit to tank in both Elite and Core units, it is a bit problematic, even though Druid can help there a bit. In a crowded and limited area to move, Blade dancer's ability to damage multiple targets is somewhat not useful, or at least situational, because it would depend on the size and the crowdedness of the battlefield. Deer like Dancers, might be strong attacking units, but frail in terms of HP or defence + their supporting abilities are not explained. Fury line-up reminds me on Blood Furies, who have strong attack but who fall like flies if they are hit, especially if they are hit by damaging spell.
Grading: B >= S > F

Strength - Balance - Fury - CHAMPION:
Both Strength and Fury can rely on Dryad and Treant synergy if they are in need of defence, and both can choose Dragon if they are need of attack. However, what is the use of slow/average speed attacker in Fury when it has all the quick, fast, attacking units? Dragon seems redundant. But than again, Even Treant is wasted in Fury, because you get a tanking unit only late game. It is a CORE + CHAMPION combo. You might lost a lot of your units until you get a tank. Strength is in better position than Fury, since it already has an early tank, and that is Snake. Strength can also augment its attacking power by choosing Dragons. However, both are in disadvantage in comparison to the Balance. Phoenix as a tank is better than Treant since it can navigate the mazy battlefield much better, thus it is more strategic unit. Phoenix and rebirth vs. Dryad and Treant are maybe equally viable. But in one case you need 1 unit and in other you need 2 units. If Dryad needs Treant to be useful, than it isn't useful nor practical unit at all. And if balance needs more attacking power a player can always choose a Dragon.
B > S = F

On a battlefield that is a maze You need archers AND fliers to destroy your enemy. If the passageways are crowded with walkers, the battle might be too long.

Observing a possible strategy of the three options Balance is the best, Followed by Strength and then by Fury. (Of course this is my opinion).
Balance is a mix of attack and defence, but its main advantage lies in flyers. Strength is similar to Balance but it lacks fliers. Fury's weakness lies in few Tanks and few fliers. It cannot accomplish its full attacking and damaging potential if it cannot get to the target.

Great post. I agree with you on pretty much everything.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 18, 2014 11:24 PM
Edited by Storm-Giant at 23:25, 18 Sep 2014.

jhb said:
So h2, h3, h5 and h6 didn't make sense, only h4? Because that was the case. I'm not talking about what the graphics represent, seriously.

h2, h3 - the technology wasn't there
h5, h6 - they probably didn't thought much on it, after all they were neutrals. They weren't made by the same dev either.

jhb said:
iirc, in H4 they hadn't to die! You could heal you living phoenix. If you had only 1 phoenix in your army, you could heal him with rebirth. And THAT makes no sense to me.
If they add a restriction where at least one unit need to die or a fraction of the total, this would help to keep the things right.

You guys should play H4, you won't get ill for playing it lol



At least 1 phoenix has to die in order to be able to use rebirth ability.
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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 18, 2014 11:28 PM
Edited by jhb at 00:16, 19 Sep 2014.

Storm-Giant said:
jhb said:
So h2, h3, h5 and h6 didn't make sense, only h4? Because that was the case. I'm not talking about what the graphics represent, seriously.

h2, h3 - the technology wasn't there
h5, h6 - they probably didn't thought much on it, after all they were neutrals. They weren't made by the same dev either.

jhb said:
iirc, in H4 they hadn't to die! You could heal you living phoenix. If you had only 1 phoenix in your army, you could heal him with rebirth. And THAT makes no sense to me.
If they add a restriction where at least one unit need to die or a fraction of the total, this would help to keep the things right.

You guys should play H4, you won't get ill for playing it lol



At least 1 phoenix has to die in order to be able to use rebirth ability.


Oh, alright then

Edit: Elvin made a correction below. Yes, in H6 rebirth worked as a "heal with resurrection". So I was wrong here too.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 19, 2014 12:05 AM

Stevie said:


3. Actually, from that point of view, Balance has the biggest shortcoming, and even your choice of constructing that phrase betrays that. Namely that, while I can get behind Ensnare + Shoot, the Pixie with it's Low-damage is useless. If we are to trust the descriptions, super-fast Snakes will strike first and strike far, leaving the Pixie behind with an unfulfilled role. From this point of view, Strength and Fury are more advantaged, because you'd rather have a medium damage Dryad than a low-damage Pixie with a redundant role in the army. Furthermore, the snake role resembles that of a suicide squad, and considering the lack of support abilities you best think of it as an expendable one.
4. Obviously the Pixie is. And you could think of the Hunter having to target rooted units that can't advance into better range as a not so optimal Hunter - Snake synergy
5. My grades: F>= S >= B

High initiative doesn't necessarily mean high speed, sprites will undoubtedly have better reach being flyers and all. Hit&running with wait is a tried and true tactic so you know exactly what you want to do with them - if you played any previous heroes games And while I don't know what special the dryads will have.. I know I would avoid attacking with them. You just don't risk losing support units in melee.

6 3 creatures sharing the same ability of entangle is not exactly something I'd take pride in. It's tactically advantageous, yes, in the way 4 would be even more. But that spells cheesiness more than anything. Plus, elves are hardly regarded as such fighters, the words swift and maneuverable describing them more accurately.
10. Having 3 dedicated damage dealers seems to me more of an advantage, because that inevitably transfers into less damage received from less enemy troops. Killing more and tanking less is more often than not better than killing less and tanking more, and I wouldn't put Elves into the tanking more category.

Entangling special does not mean all those units will have the exact same ability.

Dedicated damage dealers is not a clear advantage but a matter of balancing. For instance try to attack H5 orcs with elves head on. If your first charge does not hit hard enough you will end up slaughtered. This works wonderfully against frail opponents but less so on tough enemies. The thing is, H5 sylvan could potentially charge with ALL units while this won't be the case this time. The damaging potential has been greatly diminished so their specials had better be worth it.


22. Fly is situationaly better. But the ability to block the entire enemy's army in a wider area via rooting in place with a sturdy dedicated tank like the Champion Treant, is even better. You can block 2x2 with a Phoenix, with a Treant you can block a line of 2x6. That's 3 times more.
23. That's not true. Phoenix with Rebirth is netly inferior to Dryad Heal for one major reason: Phoenix needs to die completely to revive. If somehow you have 25 Phoenixes and the battle ends with only 1 Phoenix in your stack, the rebirth ability has been completely useless. In fact, human players will plan around that so they will render the Phoenix as useless as possible. In duels or multiplayer they will reduce the numbers of your Phoenix without getting it killed so that it's no threat until they find fit to deal with it after Rebirth. Unlike that downside, you can provide the Dryad heal to your Treant at ANY time!
24. The thing that makes more sense is to think that you get Heal as a bonus combo because of you building Treants. Because in reality that's what happens, the Heal ability doesn't depend on the Dryad as much as it depends on the Treat. If that's not the case and Dryad heal is indeed a core attribute that you can't use by the time you get Treants, then that's bad game design.

I have little doubt that the treant will be a better tank than the phoenix, if only due to sheer hp and defense. But I doubt a good opponent would let you entangle multiple units while your treant stays put, assuming it even works like in H3. And its initiative would likely mean that the opponent can outmaneuver it from attacking key units unless he is charging you openly. So many ways to block the pathways of large creatures in a tile system.. Which is why the advantage of flying is more than situational. But that's probably better for blocking archers than head on tanking. We'll never know as the phoenix champion will never meet the treant champion anyway.

H4 and H6 rebirth abilities did not require the stack to die. Speaking of which, if the H7 rebirth is similar to H6 as the description suggests then we also get all around damage!

I'd like to think that the dryad synergy is more of a bonus if you build treants. I don't like the design anyway, it would work better with an elite treant in mind, for obvious reasons.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted September 19, 2014 12:20 AM

poor stevie you're alone in world of balance
just to help out here i just want to point out that:

-emerald knight=blade dancer (same unit with different clothes literally. don't tell me about abilities they are not so far off too)

-unicorn is a four legged magic creature of the forest with a horn.
guess what. deer is too a four legged magic forest creature with    antlers (branched horns). with support role too, except high speed and attack.

-snake,druid,treant all entanglers. too many for no reason.

So how come the strength voters go for balance when fury and balance is the exact same line up with a nostalgic twist? why the hate?
keep in mind that balance removes support from the treant and makes them an elite.how many of you went for the treant dwelling in H5?
litterally an elite goes wasted.
I really think more strongly now that the balance line up was to be the foretress of this poll, thrown under a bus, hence the way less nostalgic line up, and flaws all around.
a phoenix playing first with high speed to go kill things? then battle is over.
if fury or strength wins it will be by ubi's hands i guarantee it.

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Alex_Yakub
Alex_Yakub


Famous Hero
posted September 19, 2014 12:23 AM
Edited by Alex_Yakub at 00:27, 19 Sep 2014.

ChrisD1 said:
So how come the strength voters go for balance when fury and balance is the exact same line up with a nostalgic twist?

Because... Fury is said to be an offensive lineup, when in fact, from your own words, it is closer to t truly defensive one than it seems? Seriously, that doesn't even makes sense. Offensive lineup is not offensive if it shares 5 of 8 units, most importantly champions, with a defensive one. And in no way is Fury nostalgic
EDIT: damn, the edit took so long, ChrisD1 actually managed to reply before I even finished
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