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odium
Known Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:00 PM |
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Edited by odium at 18:02, 16 Sep 2014.
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Not to take anything from Elvin's post, but for correctness, the nice Phoenix picture was posted initially by Red_Flag on page 32. If the Phoenix is not a Fire Bird (the Russian version of the Phoenix) but the forrest one (or even the Moon version, in my case  ) I wouldn't mind the lineup at all.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:20 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:22, 16 Sep 2014.
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I think I have made myself, as well as others besides me, perfectly clear in this regard, Elvis. If not, I will state it again in a more visible fashion:
ELVEN PHOENIX IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH ASHAN LORE!
Heroes 5 - fiery phoenix as a summoning magic and neutral unit;
Heroes 6 - phoenix as neutral;
Duel of Champions - phoenix as neutral again.
MMX Legacy - phoenix as a Summoning spell from Shantiri discs; The part about Shantiri is extremely important because it's continuity is basically Academy. And that leads us to..
Clash of Heroes - where phoenix is part of Academy!
So there, in all those iterations of Phoenixes in ASHAN lore, show me ONE SINGLE ARGUMENT that the Phoenix is part of Elven culture.
And please spare me with that green excuse of a Phoenix. That's such a stretch I wouldn't even dare call it one. Just google image "phoenix" and see the results. Here, I did it for you - Link I do hope you see the red.
If you want a decent image of what you could get then look at what we had with Ashan again.
 
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:29 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 18:32, 16 Sep 2014.
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Stevie said:
I think I have made myself, as well as others besides me, perfectly clear in this regard, Elvis. If not, I will state it again in a more visible fashion:
ELVEN PHOENIX IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH ASHAN LORE!
Heroes 5 - fiery phoenix as a summoning magic and neutral unit;
Heroes 6 - phoenix as neutral;
Duel of Champions - phoenix as neutral again.
MMX Legacy - phoenix as a Summoning spell from Shantiri discs; The part about Shantiri is extremely important because it's continuity is basically Academy. And that leads us to..
Clash of Heroes - where phoenix is part of Academy!
So there, in all those iterations of Phoenixes in ASHAN lore, show me ONE SINGLE ARGUMENT that the Phoenix is part of Elven culture.
the only argument i got for saying the same thing is that creatures change factions on a whim -.-
which is not an argument.If it's like that then a cerberus can go to sanctuary. Would that make sense?
Come on people Lets name the leafy bird something else and be done with it. It's clearly not a phoenix. And even in H6 it's on (moon)fire.
Not in leaves.
I bet you Stevie that your post will be ignored mostly, instead of someone providing a reasonable counter-argument, except personal preference of course.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 16, 2014 06:30 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 18:31, 16 Sep 2014.
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Stevie said:
If you want a decent image of what you could get then look at what we had with Ashan again.
That is rather off-putting.
Kinda wish they don't include the Phoenix at all now.
Quote:
If it's like that then a cerberus can go to sanctuary. Would that make sense?
The two-headed cerberus? Sure, why not?
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:34 PM |
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Stevie said:
I think I have made myself, as well as others besides me, perfectly clear in this regard, Elvis. If not, I will state it again in a more visible fashion:
ELVEN PHOENIX IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH ASHAN LORE!
Heroes 5 - fiery phoenix as a summoning magic and neutral unit;
Heroes 6 - phoenix as neutral;
Duel of Champions - phoenix as neutral again.
MMX Legacy - phoenix as a Summoning spell from Shantiri discs; The part about Shantiri is extremely important because it's continuity is basically Academy. And that leads us to..
Clash of Heroes - where phoenix is part of Academy!
So there, in all those iterations of Phoenixes in ASHAN lore, show me ONE SINGLE ARGUMENT that the Phoenix is part of Elven culture.
And please spare me with that green excuse of a Phoenix. That's such a stretch I wouldn't even dare call it one. Just google image "phoenix" and see the results. Here, I did it for you - Link I do hope you see the red.
If you want a decent image of what you could get then look at what we had with Ashan again.
You are right, I can't. But I can sauy that among these examples, there have been many variations among the Phoenix line throught Ashan's history. Since this is a "missing chapter" between other stories, perhaps they were included, and then later booted out?
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red_flag
Known Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:35 PM |
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Edited by red_flag at 18:38, 16 Sep 2014.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:40 PM |
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Protolisk said:
You are right, I can't. But I can sauy that among these examples, there have been many variations among the Phoenix line throught Ashan's history. Since this is a "missing chapter" between other stories, perhaps they were included, and then later booted out?
Heroes 5 takes place in the future of Heroes 7. So not only you'll have to explain their adherence to Sylvan, you'll have to explain their departure too.
ChrisD1 said:
I bet you Stevie that your post will be ignored mostly, instead of someone providing a reasonable counter-argument, except personal preference of course.
I'm basically on repeat here.
W00t new descriptions!
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Lokheit
Known Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:43 PM |
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Edited by Lokheit at 18:45, 16 Sep 2014.
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I'm not against Phoenix but I wish he wasn't there simply because IT'S THE ONLY THING keeping Balance from curbstomping this poll.
Right now they're winning IN SPITE of the Phoenix hate, instead of thanks to him, and I'm worried that on the last day we will see an alliance to change the poll order and defeat Balance (I don't like the ability to change decissions on the poll because of this).
I'm really worried because as a videogame designer myself, I see Strength and Fury as BAD game design. I'm not even a main sylvan player (though I would give a try to Balance lineup as it's great, and I still want all factions to be good so I can enjoy the experience), but from a playstyle perspective, Balance isn't just the best option, it's the only option that isn't horrible.
Here is why:
Both Fury and Strength have creature synergies where one of the creature is optional and mutually exclusive with another champion, but the other is always there.
This means that there is a creature that you always have there and has an asigned creature cost, that includes all its abilities.
Among these abilities, it's included the ability to heal the Treant, an optional creature. Which means that unless you have Treants (and ignore Dragons in all of your games) you're paying the same for less abilities, so a unit that is always there isn't optimized.
One could argue that this synergy cost could be attached to the Treant instead of shared with the Dryad, so the Dryad's cost is balanced not counting the healing ability. But this is again bad design as you're making the the Treant, a champion, dependant on the number of Dryads, a core unit whose numbers could fluctuate a huge lot during games. As the Dryads to Treants ratio isn't always the same and depends on too many factors, this would be a really bad idea and could make the Treant the worst champion in the game or the Dryad the best core depending on multiple situations.
Even if the cost was shared, this is still true as a portion of the creature cost is based on a synergy with an specific creature whose numbers you don't know when asigning costs for game balance.
So basically, having 2 specific creatures synergy with each other makes things really hard for balance and design to begin with (it would be different if Dryads could heal anyone and Treants could protect anyone), but if you add the fact that Treants are optional and mutually exclusive with Dragons, this is HORRIBLE from a design stand point.
Earth's Perfect Balance on the other hand is MARVELOUS and has a very defined personal style. Half of your non-champion units can entangle, 2 are shooters, 1 strikes and returns (which is basically another shooter with certain limitations) and another negates retaliation. The idea here is really well defined: snare your opponent as much as you can and use all your safe attacks to murder them without punishment. I love it and it doesn't force you to pick specific unit (which destroys the concept of "picking" if you're forced to always do the same).
This is why I'm so worried about the Phoenix not letting Balance win. I constantly tell them that Phoenix will be optional and they can pick Dragons instead (which aren't mutually exclusive with Treants here), but I'm very afraid another option will win and then we will see 1 faction already as a crappy faction for the reasons I stated before.
If not for the Phoenix, I'm sure Balance would be over 50% and stablished as the clear victor here.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 16, 2014 06:43 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 18:46, 16 Sep 2014.
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Stevie said:
Heroes 5 takes place in the future of Heroes 7. So not only you'll have to explain their adherence to Sylvan, you'll have to explain their departure too
Did they ever explain how Moonixes became Phoenixes?
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:43 PM |
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red_flag said:
Description of the some Sylvan creatures https://mmh7.ubi.com/ru/blog/post/view/creatures-of-irollan
Aaaaand they don't show unicorns, Blade Dancers, or Phoenixes. How appropriate.
I still like Root Snakes and Pixies though. Good to see that Dryads are green now instead of blue, but, still, they remind me too much of Spring Spirits/Glories uninspired "sparkly feminine humanoid".
Stevie said:
Protolisk said:
You are right, I can't. But I can sauy that among these examples, there have been many variations among the Phoenix line throught Ashan's history. Since this is a "missing chapter" between other stories, perhaps they were included, and then later booted out?
Heroes 5 takes place in the future of Heroes 7. So not only you'll have to explain their adherence to Sylvan, you'll have to explain their departure too.
You merely asked for some counter arguments. They still need to describe how blue Moon Phoenixes become draconic fire birds. Might as well try to explain them both at the same time, no?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:45 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 18:50, 16 Sep 2014.
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red_flag said:
Description of the some Sylvan creatures https://mmh7.ubi.com/ru/blog/post/view/creatures-of-irollan
So
-a pixie is not humanoid AT ALL
-the dryad is a spirit
-the root snake is poisonous and malicious
-and the emerald knights wear flamboyant armors (but they are called "knights" not dancers so yeah more macho).
all of you saying that the dryad looks like mizu kami, then read their description again, they are part wood. and their design is not final.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 16, 2014 06:48 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Inconsistency is pretty consistent when it comes to Ashan.
True story...
Kurush said:
blizz said:
Don't see why they couldn't come up with a perfectly reasonable lore explanation for how Phoenix can be part of Sylvan. It doesn't even have to be a retcon. Was it ever stated moon Phoenix is the only type of phoenix in Ashan?
Mahrzin said its gonna be Moonix.
I'd swear he mentioned it MIGHT be a moonix, but it isn't something final yet.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:55 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
all of you saying that the dryad looks like mizu kami, then read their description again, they are part wood. and their design is not final.
I know the art isn't final, but a lot of the art they have shown for various other creatures in H6 were the ones used anyways. Typically, what you see is what you get. It's not that I don't like their idea, I just want them to update that artwork ASAP, as it isn't what it is supposed to be.
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Kurush
Known Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:57 PM |
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Edited by Kurush at 18:58, 16 Sep 2014.
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@Storm Giant
He said MOST LIKELY, and we know ubi doesn't like changes
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 16, 2014 06:59 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 19:00, 16 Sep 2014.
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Reading those descriptions are strangely entertaining.
I especially like the part about the elf/ent fusion needing to be consensual.
Quote:
Twilight Stags. As it turns out, the females of this species are nocturnal,
and while they don’t burst into flame when they are touched by sunlight (contrary to what the old nursery rhyme says)
Instead they sparkle, amirite :B
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 06:59 PM |
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Quote:
Needless to say, mating is a rather complicated affair for Twilight Stags, as the males and females can only meet during the short periods when both sun and moon are in the sky!
As a wildlife aficionado, this part simply melted me 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 16, 2014 07:05 PM |
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Kurush said:
@Storm Giant
He said MOST LIKELY, and we know ubi doesn't like changes
But they still haven't made it. And if we make enough noise, they might stick to a traditional red phoenix.
I liked this in depth descriptions 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 16, 2014 07:06 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
-a pixie is not humanoid AT ALL
Shows you haven't read the description.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 07:06 PM |
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Upon further inspection, Root Snakes seem a bit vicious. I kinda like that, but I guess that might turn people away.
It says Dryads "are attached body and spirit to their progenitors", which is a little disconcerting. I hope that "bodily attachment" is symbolic and not literal.
The Deer emanate "apeasing and soothing aura[s]". Is that part of their support abilities, they put people at ease? Is this like a "pacify" effect of the Sisters, or cleansing effect for their allies? Many questions, I have, answers I do not.
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blizz
Known Hero
of temper grace
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posted September 16, 2014 07:08 PM |
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Edited by blizz at 19:09, 16 Sep 2014.
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Hah they are actually taking that Dryad art for rough concept. A half water spirit/half female elf.
Pixies are basically green elf kids with wings.
I think it's clear what line-up we don't want here.
Also does that dear look like reshaped glory from H6 haven to anyone else? So simple, so boring.
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This thread is pages long: 
