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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 18, 2015 12:04 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Considering heroes is played on a 2D plane, 3D does not add anything gameplay-wise
Hint: since monitors all have a 2D plane, all games are in essence 2D ... 
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 18, 2015 01:13 PM |
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Maurice said:
kiryu133 said:
Considering heroes is played on a 2D plane, 3D does not add anything gameplay-wise
Hint: since monitors all have a 2D plane, all games are in essence 2D ...
Shots fired! 
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keldaur
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 18, 2015 02:09 PM |
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Edited by keldaur at 14:11, 18 Sep 2015.
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okrane said:
I mean seriously, all this crap about Heroes in 3D brings nothing to the table.
2D makes it easier to produce the game,
easier for map makers to quickly build new maps
easier to understand what's going on and
the feel of a strategy game...
before it's too late...
It's not easier. It's not cheaper.
I don't care much about 3D, but it is the way it is, and it's completely understandable for such a niche game as Heroes are.
It's kinda like mechanichal keyboards.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted September 18, 2015 02:28 PM |
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2D is fine for cheap spin-off of the franchise not for its flagship. I'm fine with 2D graphic as long as the game cost no more then 20eu.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted September 20, 2015 04:40 PM |
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Thanks Galaad for the link. I guess with a smaller pool of 2D artists left that would drive the cost of their services up.
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Madao
Tavern Dweller
desu
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posted September 21, 2015 04:06 AM |
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Edited by Madao at 04:11, 21 Sep 2015.
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Oh god, what a mess.
I dunno why aren't you more open to one another's posts. This whole discussion is simple, cmon.
3D will never catch up to 2D content-wise. Why? Because it takes too much money and time and it takes too much virtual space. Look at Elder scrolls - you think they can remake Daggerfall today? Unless you can envision a small country working for years on it, it simply cannot be done. What 3D brought us is pure visual appeal, at a terrible cost of degradation.
Do you promote idiocracy? Do you want all the stories and worlds from original concept to be reduced and crammed into 1/3 of it's size and quality for the sake of graphics? Is that why you play?
While supporting technological progress is ok, it's really biting more than you can chew in claiming that 3D is superior. It's not. It has one and only advantage: visual appeal.
This whole post is a "fight" between people who want to immerse in a whole world vs. people who want to immerse in a fancy paradise island. 3D has it's limits, people, don't be dense.
Regarding heroes specifically:
H5 has proven to me that 3D heroes can be done, but it takes money. I never had a problem with objects or rotation, but majority of my friends had, so my take is that this is individual matter/problem.
I didn't like the warcraft graphics, but I made peace with this long ago. Overall, the game looks smaller than all heroes before, and I enjoy them all, as I enjoy H5.
3D graphic had no saying in it whatsoever. It added flavor, but not much else. It took away less than atrocious H6, but it still took AWAY.
If it takes so much money to make new heroes 3D, why bother? This has limited audience, deal with it or don't do it.
However you twist and turn, it's very clear why 2D has much more to give today in games like these, starting with content. I'm really surprised some people won't acknowledge this a fact, just because they are techfapping.
Understand what forced 3D does to content, please. I can speak volumes here and link examples, videos, pictures - but if you won't accept that small fact, all is in vain.
Heroes were played all around the world because a percentage of players liked it's rich worlds, and there will always be new players to like them again if they remain rich like that.
"We" like it visually CLEAR, not pretty, but there will always be a smaller number of "us". We like it and we will fight for it to the end, cause it's something we don't wanna loose. Time isn't beating us, time cannot catch up to that content we are used to, dammit.
I'ts equivalent to being forced to watch Michael Bay's snow after saying how u liked Transformers back then.
Oh, and if you've seen how professional Quake players play Quake 3 you would understand what some members here mean when they say that lighting and details are a distraction.
It's about the focus, games like heroes get most of the immersion from clear focus on the relevant stuff, not snowing visualization.
Sorry for the long post, I just had to spill it out.
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Beerrows of Malt & Magic
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 07:50 AM |
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i don't know; first person shooters are great for 3d( ). i think virtual reality would be the best for heroes games, myself(just imagine). but 3d just doesn't cut it in a chess-board type strategy game, imo. you need to be able to see things from a proper perspective, in order to play the game at hand. different views are best for different games. that's mostly why i'm a hardcore 2d heroes fan. mostly.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted September 21, 2015 09:10 AM |
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 21, 2015 10:49 AM |
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I don't understand how 2D is *more expensive* than 3D is. You just have to balance the length and width, without including height.
That being said, I don't think 2D games require that much space on any engine than 3D is.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 21, 2015 11:28 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:29, 21 Sep 2015.
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Supply and demand plays a role I suppose. 2D is not as common(hand-drawn even less) as it used to be while 3D is widespread. More studios to choose from, more competition.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 21, 2015 11:29 AM |
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EnergyZ said:
I don't understand how 2D is *more expensive* than 3D is. You just have to balance the length and width, without including height.
That being said, I don't think 2D games require that much space on any engine than 3D is.
The question is - what kind of 2D you want to have? Do you want sprites or do you want 3D models on a 2D plane?
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 21, 2015 11:59 AM |
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Pawek_13 said:
EnergyZ said:
I don't understand how 2D is *more expensive* than 3D is. You just have to balance the length and width, without including height.
That being said, I don't think 2D games require that much space on any engine than 3D is.
The question is - what kind of 2D you want to have? Do you want sprites or do you want 3D models on a 2D plane?
3D models on a 2D field sounds strange. Probably that's what it was meant that "they need to make 3D models and compress them into 2D".
I'll go with sprites then.
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Oakwarrior
Famous Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 12:11 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
I don't understand how 2D is *more expensive* than 3D is. You just have to balance the length and width, without including height.
That being said, I don't think 2D games require that much space on any engine than 3D is.
As Elvin mentioned, supply and demand. If you ask for a quota from an art studio for over a 100 creatures with full animation sets (attack, defend, idle, die, spellcast, walk, fly, and more) in 2D with good quality you will probably have a heart attack at the price tag. It was cheaper a long time ago because "that's how things were done". Nowadays 3D is "how things are done". This shapes the market a LOT. Content creation, on the other hand (and I mean mapmaking here) would be immensely less work though, which would be the biggest benefit for the general budget. But in that case, you will still lose sales. People want to see 3D. Otherwise, for instance, Battle for Wesnoth would be a game on everyone's minds. It's not. I do hope that with the increasing trend of "retro 2D games" the market shifts back to that sort of style more (it already has a little, but it's in no way the mainstream).
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 21, 2015 12:16 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
3D models on a 2D field sounds strange. Probably that's what it was meant that "they need to make 3D models and compress them into 2D".
I'll go with sprites then.
Problem with sprites is that they look cool, I agree, but there is a problem with them. As much as Heroes is supposed to be a "niche" game, it is still main title in the M&M franchise. With that said, it has to be sold to the greatest number of customers possible. And he average customer likes 3D graphics and considers sprite-based games to be "outdated." Simple as that.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 21, 2015 12:20 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 12:24, 21 Sep 2015.
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Oakwarrior said:
People want to see 3D. Otherwise, for instance, Battle for Wesnoth would be a game on everyone's minds.
I didn't know that game even existed, but when I searched for some images on Google, I can't say it's a game that's graphically appealing. That doesn't have anything to do with it being 2D, but everything with the artstyle. It's *nearly* top-down, but the units look like you're looking at them from the side. It just doesn't match in my brain. Besides that, it has a bit of a Zelda/Pokemon art direction and that's a style that also doesn't appeal to me.
A much closer example to a 3D game "smashed down" into 2D is our very own Heroes 3. All units were first rendered in 3D and then 2D images were made from them.
Edit: Oh, I looked up the English Wikipedia about that game and found this text in it:
Quote:
Another important facet of the game is randomness and its manipulation: it is never certain a unit's attack will fail or succeed, only likely or unlikely. Developers have stated that the potential for a skirmish to go better or worse than expected adds excitement and strategic depth to the game.
The developers of that game were apparently fans of output randomness  .
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 21, 2015 12:23 PM |
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In-house animators and artists then? I feel like a push towards 2D in strategy games could be a pretty good thing. sure, it's not always ideal (Total war couldn't work in 2D for example) but most strategy only take place on a 2D plane meaning 3D doesn't really add anything to the game play. That and 2D takes much less processing and resources to render, meaning more people could potentially play it increasing the potential customer base.
just some random thoughts...
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 12:27 PM |
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 21, 2015 12:30 PM |
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I don't think we'd get those thick, giant tree-tiles, so yes. It would've mattered.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 21, 2015 12:33 PM |
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Stevie said:
Speaking of which, question for you people: If H3 was full 3D instead of 2.5D, would it had mattered that much in your perception?
It really depends on how they make the map. H3 was fully symbolic. With H5, they made the critical mistake of trying to make it a lot more real-sized, which resulted in objects getting hidden behind others.
Age of Wonders 3 is a recent game which features a symbolic world map in 3D. It works ... well, Wonders there  .
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 01:10 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:11, 21 Sep 2015.
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I can easily imagine myself rotating a camera inside a 3D H3 without any appeal being lost. It's the same Heroes, just that I can perceive a dimension more. And fair point from Maurice, AoW3 is 3D and looks amazing. To me, 2D vs 3D is just a moot point, it doesn't matter. What matters way more is art style, object designs and sizes, colors and visibility, etc. The angle in which you capture them comes second.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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This thread is pages long: 
