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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 01:27 PM |
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 01:30 PM |
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okrane said:
This discussion has degenerated into something which it shouldn't be.
A couple of idealistic 3D fanatics with no arguments whatsoever sticking to their guns just because "3D is better".
We have clear proof in the past that the 2D games were better in terms of:
- mapmaking community: easy map making in 2D by everyone which means the community can be involved in developing the game. How many custom maps did H5 have and how many did H3 have? The numbers are heavily skewed towards H3 here and there's simply no contest. This contributes to the longevity fo the game and the community as a whole. In H5 you had a few maps and then it was goodbye to recycle bin.
- game performance: remember how snowty the performance of H5 was? After 1hour of play all those memory leaks start taking a toll.
- strategy: stuff being more clear and crisp on the map and not bothering with rotating and perspective is a clear improvement. Even modern 3D strategy games focus on clarity for their game whereas here H5 was clearly very confusing especially on the adventure map.
So let's be practical here, shall we.
Your first sentence was alluding onto something and then you lost all credibility with your second sentence.
You are tunnel-visioning. The only thing you shouldn't be doing is the only thing that you are doing, and that is observing things in a vacuum.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 27, 2014 01:39 PM |
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okrane said:
This discussion has degenerated into something which it shouldn't be.
A couple of idealistic 3D fanatics with no arguments whatsoever sticking to their guns just because "3D is better".
We have clear proof in the past that the 2D games were better in terms of:
- mapmaking community
As it was mentioned a few times before, this is the fault of mapmaking software, not the fact that the game was in 3D.
okrane said:
- game performance
Have you heard about Bayonetta 2? This is a new Wii U ("underpowered" console) hack'n'slash tittle which is in 3D. The amount of action on the screen is staggering, yet the game runs in 1080p, 60 FPS constantly. Just look at the gameplay. This is once more fault of bad optimization, not the fault of 3D.
okrane said:
- strategy: stuff being more clear and crisp on the map and not bothering with rotating and perspective is a clear improvement. Even modern 3D strategy games focus on clarity for their game whereas here H5 was clearly very confusing especially on the adventure map.
Have you played Heroes VI? This game was much worse than Heroes V, although there were some aspects which were done right in it. One of them was that the layout of the map was clear and rotation of the map was not required at all in order to obtain everything from the map. Menu was not clear, I agree, but once more - this is the fault of poor design, not 3D graphics.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 02:01 PM |
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Again we are idealizing things.
2D is easy and it works.
3D done right by a million dollar experienced developper might be ok, but I'd rather stick to the basics
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 02:01 PM |
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Again we are idealizing things.
2D is easy and it works.
3D done right by a million dollar experienced developper might be ok, but I'd rather stick to the basics
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 27, 2014 02:34 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 14:53, 27 Dec 2014.
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okrane said:
Again we are idealizing things.
2D is easy and it works.
3D done right by a million dollar experienced developper might be ok, but I'd rather stick to the basics
For Ubi games, 3D is basics. To make good looking you also have to do a lot of work to make it visually appealing. I have mentioned a few hours ago Shovel Knight. Do you know how much attention did it need in order to make it look like an 8-bit game? You can create sprites quite easily but in order to make them look good you have to still do a lot of work. And remember - Shovel Knight's price tag is a third of standard AAA game. Imagine how much work should have been put in it to give it a standard price tag. The same as in case of 3D game.
There aren't many franchises that survived more than 20 years and I can asssure that a host of them made a transition from 2D to 3D and many of them were successful. Mario, Metal Gear, Pokemon the Legend of Zelda, Civilisatiom, etc. Of course, in nearly every of these there is a game that brings back their 2D tradition (New Super Mario Bros., The Legend of Zelda: A Link between Worlds) but still, the world has changed and so have games, therefore why should Ubi decide to make games 2D once more because of a vocal, but still minority. Even Heroes games created by NWW/3DO were getting closer and closer to 3D. Heroes IV and unfinished V had isometric (2.5D) graphics, therefore sixth iteration would probably have 3D.
PS. Also remember that in Heroes III at first 3D renders were created which were later simplified into 2D sprites. This caused that in creating Heroes III the same amount of effort had to be put as in 3D game,yet it was in 2D.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 03:24 PM |
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artu said:
They are not pointless, as long as they dont effect gameplay in a negative way, they are very welcome. I will not repeat for a third time the perks of a 2D map over a 3D one, it's starting to get exhausting, you exeggarate and you reduce my point into something radically different.
I may be exaggarating, but all posts on how in 3D immage is nexto to immpossible to see what's going on, and how zooming in makes you dizzy (lol) are nothing but straight up exaggerations allso.
I have never had any problems in viewing battles in H5 ... sure in H6 creatures were too small, but that can be fixed. And if by some random chance i couldn't see clearly, rotating camera and zomming in-out was advantage rather than something bad.
In fact in H3 i was struggling a lot more to see in battlegound clearly, and i feel like immages you post are missleading. This is how i remember battles of H3 look like:
or something along these lines. How many Earth Elementals are there in each stack? How many Boars are there ? and how many Dragons in upper right corner? 11? 12 ... make a guess i dare you. Have you even notice that Phoenix over there? ... yea i taught not.
Gee wouldn't it be nice if i can ... you know .. rotate a camera around?? And in siege battles it was sometimes even worse, when wall would block your view. And creatures are moving in this "3D" grid, so that they cover up the hexes behind their head, which can be problematic and made me missclick and attack wrong target number of times - or from angle which i didn't want to. Also there were objects with gaps, which sometimes made it unclear if you can move through them or not, unless you had your Hex grid turned on.
Yes ... that is how I remember H3.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 03:48 PM |
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why does everyone keeps posting screens of the combat screen when it's the adventure map which is the biggest problem in 3D?
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted December 27, 2014 03:59 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Yes ... that is how I remember H3.
so you think the other poats are misleading, but you instead pick out an image of the final battle in Dragon Slayer as an ordinary example?
that's one of the most high-level, cluttered battles possible in H3 and completely abnormal with countless tricks and exploits lol,
typical battles do not look like that
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 04:07 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:13, 27 Dec 2014.
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
artu said:
They are not pointless, as long as they dont effect gameplay in a negative way, they are very welcome. I will not repeat for a third time the perks of a 2D map over a 3D one, it's starting to get exhausting, you exeggarate and you reduce my point into something radically different.
I may be exaggarating, but all posts on how in 3D immage is nexto to immpossible to see what's going on, and how zooming in makes you dizzy (lol) are nothing but straight up exaggerations allso.
I have never had any problems in viewing battles in H5 ... sure in H6 creatures were too small, but that can be fixed. And if by some random chance i couldn't see clearly, rotating camera and zomming in-out was advantage rather than something bad.
In fact in H3 i was struggling a lot more to see in battlegound clearly, and i feel like immages you post are missleading. This is how i remember battles of H3 look :
Image
or something along these lines. How many Earth Elementals are there in each stack? How many Boars are there ? and how many Dragons in upper right corner? 11? 12 ... make a guess i dare you. Have you even notice that Phoenix over there? ... yea i taught not.
Gee wouldn't it be nice if i can ... you know .. rotate a camera around?? And in siege battles it was sometimes even worse, when wall would block your view. And creatures are moving in this "3D" grid, so that they cover up the hexes behind their head, which can be problematic and made me missclick and attack wrong target number of times - or from angle which i didn't want to. Also there were objects with gaps, which sometimes made it unclear if you can move through them or not, unless you had your Hex grid turned on.
Yes ... that is how I remember H3.
I never mentioned battlefield zooms, actually, my focus was always on the adventure map. This is getting repetitive. When flaws of 3D are presented, you guys keep saying "that's not directly about 3D" (which is not exactly true, btw, since a 3D map has to have bigger objects, roads, trees etc, the maps will never be as large as a 2D map). We had three 3D games in a row, none of them are slightly close to the 2D games in terms of playability, revisitability and user-friendliness in modding. Game industry evolving into this or that doesnt mean all games have to take the same path, if anything is tunneling, to think like that is. If you talk about "evolution of games" you must realize that evolution is not a progress that "upgrades" variety into one uniformal thing, on the contrary, it's about fitting and adjusting to what suits you the best: A spider stays a spider for hundreds of millions of years, if existing as a spider works. Heroes maps have always been more practical in 2D, it fits the mentality of the game better, just like no matter how the technology advances, a 2D chessboard will be easier when it comes to visiulazing your strategy on a monitor. The bottomline is this, you prefer 3D because you are impressed by how it looks, not because it presents better gameplay or advanced depth. That is not the priority, especially in the long term and especially for people who are interested in more core elements of the game. I think your situation is similar to going to a concert, getting mesmerized by the fog machine and lightning effects and when someone objects by saying "they played horrible" you start this speech about how the show was great and that's where the music industry is headed. No. We still can have concerts without the visual mambo jumbo just like we can have a quality, successfull, 2D, PC game, if that's what suits the franchise better.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 27, 2014 04:17 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 01:01, 28 Dec 2014.
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verriker said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:
Yes ... that is how I remember H3.
so you think the other poats are misleading, but you instead pick out an image of the final battle in Dragon Slayer as an ordinary example?
that's one of the most high-level, cluttered battles possible in H3 and completely abnormal with countless tricks and exploits lol,
typical battles do not look like that
Please, +QP for Verriker.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 04:33 PM |
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artu said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:
artu said:
They are not pointless, as long as they dont effect gameplay in a negative way, they are very welcome. I will not repeat for a third time the perks of a 2D map over a 3D one, it's starting to get exhausting, you exeggarate and you reduce my point into something radically different.
I may be exaggarating, but all posts on how in 3D immage is nexto to immpossible to see what's going on, and how zooming in makes you dizzy (lol) are nothing but straight up exaggerations allso.
I have never had any problems in viewing battles in H5 ... sure in H6 creatures were too small, but that can be fixed. And if by some random chance i couldn't see clearly, rotating camera and zomming in-out was advantage rather than something bad.
In fact in H3 i was struggling a lot more to see in battlegound clearly, and i feel like immages you post are missleading. This is how i remember battles of H3 look :
Image
or something along these lines. How many Earth Elementals are there in each stack? How many Boars are there ? and how many Dragons in upper right corner? 11? 12 ... make a guess i dare you. Have you even notice that Phoenix over there? ... yea i taught not.
Gee wouldn't it be nice if i can ... you know .. rotate a camera around?? And in siege battles it was sometimes even worse, when wall would block your view. And creatures are moving in this "3D" grid, so that they cover up the hexes behind their head, which can be problematic and made me missclick and attack wrong target number of times - or from angle which i didn't want to. Also there were objects with gaps, which sometimes made it unclear if you can move through them or not, unless you had your Hex grid turned on.
Yes ... that is how I remember H3.
I never mentioned battlefield zooms, actually, my focus was always on the adventure map. This is getting repetitive. When flaws of 3D are presented, you guys keep saying "that's not directly about 3D" (which is not exactly true, btw, since a 3D map has to have bigger objects, roads, trees etc, the maps will never be as large as a 2D map). We had three 3D games in a row, none of them are slightly close to the 2D games in terms of playability, revisitability and user-friendliness in modding. Game industry evolving into this or that doesnt mean all games have to take the same path, if anything is tunneling, to think like that is. If you talk about "evolution of games" you must realize that evolution is not a progress that "upgrades" variety into one uniformal thing, on the contrary, it's about fitting and adjusting to what suits you the best: A spider stays a spider for hundreds of millions of years, if existing as a spider works. Heroes maps have always been more practical in 2D, it fits the mentality of the game better, just like no matter how the technology advances, a 2D chessboard will be easier when it comes to visiulazing your strategy on a monitor. The bottomline is this, you prefer 3D because you are impressed by how it looks, not because it presents better gameplay or advanced depth. That is not the priority, especially in the long term and especially for people who are interested in more core elements of the game. I think your situation is similar to going to a concert, getting mesmerized by the fog machine and lightning effects and when someone objects by saying "they played horrible" you start this speech about how the show was great and that's where the music industry is headed. No. We still can have concerts without the visual mambo jumbo just like we can have a quality, successfull, 2D, PC game, if that's what suits the franchise better.
masterfully written.
thank you
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 27, 2014 04:35 PM |
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Btw okrane, is best for readability of the forum to avoid pyramidal quoting, you could just quote artu's post alone as it is the one you are responding to. You can edit post 
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 05:04 PM |
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@Verriker: Sure it's extreme example, but from my experience it wasn't a lone example by any means. Virtualy any battle whith 7 vs 7 creatures ends up in clustered battlefield zones, specialy if battlefield has several movement blocking objects. I have been in similar situation numerous times.
@artu: Sorry, Salamandre said the dizzy part. Also, I think you're missreading my postion here. I actualy don't have anything against 2D games. I realy don't. Hell one of my favourite strategy games are Victoria 2 and EU 4. However i don't view HoMM games from same point of view. Flashy animations and magical creatures are realy big part of the experience. Sure, I 100% agree with you on the fact that gameplay comes first. But I also think it can work prety well in 3D. It's not nearly the liability as you present it to be. At least in my opinion. Sure H6 was dodgy, but in H5 atleast I never had trouble with spoting hero on strategic map, nor had I trouble with battlefield. And from this i know that it can be done right.
Regarding replayability: sure I sometimes play H3 even to this day. But so it is the case with Doom ... even tho there's plenty of new first person shooters around. Does that mean Crysis is bad game, because it uses polygon grapics? I also play Super Castlevania 4 on my old and half broken SNES, rather than Trine almost any day.
So again ... Can Heroes game in 2D work? yea, sure. But would I pay any more than 15$ for it? No way. No chance. And let's face it. If game is in 2D, it would make a lot of sense to move it to mobile platforms aswell. And you know that means it's no longer on the same league as other big PC games.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 05:05 PM |
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artu said:
Heroes maps have always been more practical in 2D, it fits the mentality of the game better, just like no matter how the technology advances, a 2D chessboard will be easier when it comes to visiulazing your strategy on a monitor.
First part is just your opinion and you presented it as a fact. For me 2D it not more practical and I don't see no connection between 2D and Heroes franchise whatsoever.
Second part is comparing chess game to Adventure map (as you said above you are focusing on Adventure map) in Heroes which is just silly. So stop with the silliness 
Guided by your spider analogy I had a thought - computers worked just fine 10 years ago so we should stop improving them. By that analogy we would never make any progress after initial success.
About core game importance. Do you think that major downfall of HVI was its graphic? I don't think so.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 05:29 PM |
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The chess example is an analogy which points out to the fact that a 3D interfece is not necessarily always the better one. I dont compare them, I present a similarity, if you are unaware of how the most simple of rhetorical devices are used, you shouldnt be calling people silly and embarass yourself. And many people including me already told you why 2D maps have advantages relating to size, performance, map generator, easiness on navigation...if it's not getting through, that is again you (or your game play) falling short. Just becuse you dont experience it, doesnt mean it's not there, for all I know, you can be a rookie who never pushed the game to its limits.
And may I once again remind you while we presented many reasons for our preference, you had none for yours except that according to you, it looks cooler. That is what I criticize as being shallow in the first place. 3D is not automatically an improvement, if 2D works better, that's was the point of "the spider." Your conceptualization of evolution is flawed. Not every game has to have 3D graphics to catch up with the times, you said it yourself, Worms 3D sucks. Now, how is Heroes any different when we have our reasons not jus based on looks, meanwhile all you can come up with is superficial stuff like "it looks cheap" or "those games are old."
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 05:34 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:14, 27 Dec 2014.
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The level of ridiculousness in this thread is so off the charts it's hilarious. People cannot distinguish between 3D, animation, angles, mapmaking and similar tools. But they're frenetically being acclaimed by their chosen side for their excellent contributions.. The only thing missing is a Benny Hills tune in the background. I'm no expert either but at least I inform myself first before throwing "arguments" left and right like I know it all.
For example this:
artu said:
Which is nothing more nothing less than an angle issue, not a 2D vs. 3D issue. Switch to a top down angle in the second picture, you'd have exactly what you see in the first but in 3D.
Then there's detail vs. simplicity.
Then there's contrast vs. less contrast.
Then there's... wait, weren't we supposed to talk about 2D vs 3D?
Screw that, let's talk about how mapmaking is easier in 2D.
There's one thing that I understand now, that we understand nothing. Subjectivity on off topic issues. Benny Hills now and roll credits please, I'm done here.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 05:48 PM |
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From a perfectly top down angle 3D would be 2D view, anyway. Sigh...
Don't try to be a smartass Stevie, you suck big time at it.
Just check videos of tournaments, they usually still put a 2D view on the big screen for the crowd to watch, simply because it is the most practical choice.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 05:59 PM |
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[quote name=Zombi_Wizzard
So again ... Can Heroes game in 2D work? yea, sure. But would I pay any more than 15$ for it? No way. No chance. And let's face it. If game is in 2D, it would make a lot of sense to move it to mobile platforms aswell. And you know that means it's no longer on the same league as other big PC games.
Assuming that H5 and 6 were considered in the same "league" as a "BIG" PC game. lol... Those piles of dung never got a cent from me.
Pirated H5 for a couple months until I got bored with it, never bothered with H6
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 06:03 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:12, 27 Dec 2014.
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artu said:
From a perfectly top down angle 3D would be 2D view, anyway. Sigh...
Don't try to be a smartass Stevie, you suck big time at it.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You can render in 3D and show one angle, it's still 3D. Just like in your second picture with the 3D chess showing from just one angle. Motion and animation could reveal that it's 3D but even in absence it is still 3D.
You're clueless, stay on the bench and keep quiet.
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This thread is pages long: 
