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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 26, 2014 08:04 PM |
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artu said:
But that is inevitable with 3D, in 2D map, objects and buildings are icons, their proportion to each other doesnt matter, a barrack and a castle can be close in size. That would look absurd and weird in 3D.
Completely wrong. Real size is not mandatory in 3D. In fact, this is one of the flaws that the recent Heroes games had, there was no need to go for real size when iconic objects were way better. And I fail to see how Watchtowers being taller than mountains would look absurd in 3D but not in 2D. They're both equally absurd, graphical display holds no bearing on the absurdness of such a concept.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 26, 2014 08:17 PM |
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Stevie said:
Completely wrong. Real size is not mandatory in 3D. In fact, this is one of the flaws that the recent Heroes games had, there was no need to go for real size when iconic objects were way better.
So I guess you are happy because of the fact that in Heroes VII proportions will be imaginary, just like in Heroes I-III? 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 26, 2014 08:24 PM |
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Combat screenshots sell other story
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 26, 2014 08:31 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 01:23, 28 Dec 2014.
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Dark-Whisperer said:
Did any of you really missed a creature on combat map because you simply didn't see it? Did you ever misplayed because of that? I say that all the talk about visibility in combat is nonsense.
I didn’t intend to use the word “visibility” as “recognizable”, I used it as how good you can see the creatures.
With 3D creatures, I need to zoom in if I want to admire its artistic beauty. Maybe is because I am not a competitive player, to me being able to fully enjoy the artistic design of my creature is an important part of the game. During a battle, I focus on tactics of course -I want to stand victorious- but I also look at my creatures, at the AI’s creatures, at the battlefield’s aesthetics, have a smoke, relax and go on. I just love to see the Liches in action on top of the arrow towers, when they shoot, their movement, their expression, how the whole animation is done. I just love to see how my Wyvern Monarchs are beating their rotten wings when I move them in order to spread their dreadful poison, which I hope to see happening, due to the odds. Maybe is part of the reason why I enjoyed Putrid Lamasu, we could at least see some wings lol. My sensor brings me the Black Dragons animation in MMH6, which was, again according to my feelings, plain ridiculous.
What is objective, is that we will allegedly never see the animated Justicar as clear in game than on Ubi’s blog.
You are absolutely right pointing out those elements don’t bother one if playing purely from a mechanical point of view ; but from an aesthetic perspective, they do matter. If one for a reason or another, dislikes 2D, is precisely because he cares about aesthetics. In 3D, in order to see the full battlefield, you need to zoom out to the point where it goes no further than how you can distinguish the units from themselves.
Dark-Whisperer said:
There is nothing OBJECTIVELY better or more functional in 2D. It just makes game look cheaper.
Trine 2 is a 2D game that appeared in 2011 and had been praised by the critics, and was honored with a rating of 20/20 by jeuxvideo.com concerning graphics.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 26, 2014 08:32 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:33, 26 Dec 2014.
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Stevie said:
artu said:
But that is inevitable with 3D, in 2D map, objects and buildings are icons, their proportion to each other doesnt matter, a barrack and a castle can be close in size. That would look absurd and weird in 3D.
Completely wrong. Real size is not mandatory in 3D. In fact, this is one of the flaws that the recent Heroes games had, there was no need to go for real size when iconic objects were way better. And I fail to see how Watchtowers being taller than mountains would look absurd in 3D but not in 2D. They're both equally absurd, graphical display holds no bearing on the absurdness of such a concept.
It's never one on one proportions, especially when it comes to the heroes, they are always huge in proportion to other objects. Yet, look at the size of the trees, the hero, the castle, the chest here:
And imagine it was as out of proportion as the one above and how absurd it would look on this one:
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 26, 2014 08:53 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
So I guess you are happy because of the fact that in Heroes VII proportions will be imaginary, just like in Heroes I-III?
Yea I am quite happy with the map objects being more iconic now. It is crucial for strategic overview and from a map making point of view.
Storm-Giant said:
Combat screenshots sell other story
Combat is something else, and I agree with real size objects there.
@artu, I don't get the exercise, nor what you're trying to prove. Both games contain out of size objects, mountains most notably.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 26, 2014 09:00 PM |
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Galaad said:
Trine 2 is a 2D game that appeared in 2011 and had been praised by the critics, and was honored with a rating of 20/20 by jeuxvideo.com concerning graphics.
First: Trine is NOT 2D game. Just because your movement is restricted on 2 axes doesn't mean its 2D. Its like if you removed zoom on Heroes VI and say its 2D.
Second: It looks good for its genre: side scrolling platformer and for that kind of game graphic is really good. But ONLY for that type of game.
I could also take a screenshot of some awful 2D platformer and compare it to HVI screenshots to prove how HVI has superior graphic. Trine has absolutely no connection to the Heroes and I really don't understand why are you bring that game up all the time here.
And about cost of the game. 2D games just ARE cheaper. Not one big developer will use 2D technology on any big game. That's why simply by using that technology you are making your game fall in under 20$ category.
If there was any kind of superiority of 2D graphic in TBS games market would insist on it. Companies wouldn't be able to sell 3D TBS games. Since that is not the case (its opposite in fact) there is no justification for making it 2D.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 26, 2014 09:01 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:04, 26 Dec 2014.
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Quote:
@artu, I don't get the exercise, nor what you're trying to prove. Both games contain out of size objects, mountains most notably.
2D can "get away" with extremely out of proportion iconography, still looking beautiful. In 3D, if you push it, it will look weird, that's why they don't.
@Dark Whisperer
Saying it costs less (I dont know if that's true) and it LOOKS cheaper are entirely different things.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 26, 2014 09:05 PM |
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Galaad said:
Business is of course the reason, after all comments I’ve read from young gamers depicting 2D games as “from a prehistoric era”, Ubisoft is probably unwilling to take the risk of going 2D, which would look like a step backwards at first glance. I say which would look, because I surely don't think so.
I too wholly agree that 2D fits better the Heroes franchise, and not only for (that seems obvious to me) aesthetical reasons.
I don’t know about you, but to me 2D has much more visibility and highlights each detail at its best.
One of the reasons I think Ubisoft should go 2D is because they would have more time focusing on content than in-battle cinematics for instance, which asks for a lot of resources. I think they do this in a concern of immersing you into the game, to actually compensate the lack of visibility. In H2 or H3, I simply don’t need those in-battles animations, because I’m already immersed by the game itself. Designers are struggling doing outstanding 3D models that we only will be able to admire within these cut-scenes that I personally disable, while the townscreens being in 3D as in H5 certainly were greatly received by most. So in my opinion, they should be doing the opposite : 2D game with 3D townscreens. Don’t get me wrong though, my personal preference goes for 2D townscreens.
So, my feeling tends towards them doing bad use of working time. Mechanics must be deep for a, sorry, not a but THE King of TBS. I’m always sad when I think about actual technology that permits to create unique atmosphere, ultra detailed game using 2D. Yes, I believe 2D is the real eye candy.
My true feeling is that only a 2D Heroes game (MMH8?) could eventually put back H3 in the closet
these pictures speak the truth.
in 2d you can tell with complete ease where the items of interest are on the map, how many there are and even seems that you can fit more snow into 1 screen compared to 3d.
a huge difference for me.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 26, 2014 09:25 PM |
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artu said:
@Dark Whisperer
Saying it costs less (I dont know if that's true) and it LOOKS cheaper are entirely different things.
Well Heroes would look cheaper, feel cheaper and actually be cheaper in 2D. That's my subjective opinion. And I apparently happen to share it with overwhelming majority of Heroes players since there is obviously no intention from producers to revert it to 2D.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 26, 2014 09:32 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:35, 26 Dec 2014.
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Except, most hardcore fans still favor 2D games from the series and they are still played more. The trends of the market prove nothing, majority of the people can be impressed by superficial things, yet, they don't stick to what they are impressed with, do they. The new games got older much faster, they failed at revisitability.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 26, 2014 09:37 PM |
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artu said:
Except, most hardcore fans still favor 2D games from the series and they are still played more. The trends of the market prove nothing, majority of the people can be impressed by superficial things, yet, they don't stick to what they are impressed with are they, the new games got older much faster, they failed at revisitability.
So what. Games are not made for hardcore fans of 15 year old game, especially when it is not even last in the series. Games are not made to satisfy wishes of the few "true" fans (in fact true fans of only one game in entire franchise).
What I know for sure is that 2D Heroes VIII would be the death of the franchise and wouldn't sell at all. And those same hardcore fans would criticize it the most. Just look how "fans" on this fansite greeted HD remake of HIII.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 26, 2014 09:38 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
artu said:
@Dark Whisperer
Saying it costs less (I dont know if that's true) and it LOOKS cheaper are entirely different things.
Well Heroes would look cheaper, feel cheaper and actually be cheaper in 2D. That's my subjective opinion. And I apparently happen to share it with overwhelming majority of Heroes players since there is obviously no intention from producers to revert it to 2D.
lol, invoking the majority, of which you know nothing about.
you are a joke
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 26, 2014 09:42 PM |
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okrane said:
lol, invoking the majority, of which you know nothing about.
you are a joke
A nice fact - Heroes V was the best selling game in the whole franchise. If it does not speak about majority, I don't know what does.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 26, 2014 09:48 PM |
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Quote:
So what. Games are not made for hardcore fans of 15 year old game, especially when it is not even last in the series. Games are not made to satisfy wishes of the few "true" fans (in fact true fans of only one game in entire franchise).
That's not what I'm suggesting though, there is nothing that indicates if they take the risk despite some superficial trend and make a good 2D game, it wont sell. We don't prefer 2D out of nostalgia, we enlisted a lot of reasons regarding gameplay, random maps, editor and more.
@Pawek
Yeah it sold because it was a relative return to H3 dynamics after H4. Just look at the "Last 10 Replies" board, right now and see how active H3 threads still are.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 26, 2014 09:54 PM |
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artu said:
Just look at the "Last 10 Replies" board, right now and see how active H3 threads still are.
It only proves that there are people on this site who still play H3. There is active modding community and that's all. Those same people would hate another 2D heroes as we saw on H3 HD remake forum because they invested so much time in modding H3. Last thing they want is their years of work gone down the drain with appearance of new game.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted December 26, 2014 10:03 PM |
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Why dont they just do 2D
Because the world has gone crazy?  On a serious note, maybe they will. H3HD might be their research/testing ground to see how many people are still attracted to 2D games. It might change their way of thinking and perceiving Heroes franchise...
Sun out.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 26, 2014 10:04 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:05, 26 Dec 2014.
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Look, you may be impressed by shiny objects, so does a crow. Some people prefer much more practical things about game play and editing. Those have been already explained and enlisted by many, ignoring them and just saying "2D looks old" is not much of an argument, sticking to some trend just because it is the trend is also not. Having a critical approach in a remake is irrelevant (although I didnt agree with many of those objections), just because you are not critical doesn't necessarily make criticism a pure process of whining.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 26, 2014 10:25 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 23:43, 26 Dec 2014.
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Dark-Whisperer said:
First: Trine is NOT 2D game. Trine has absolutely no connection to the Heroes and I really don't understand why are you bring that game up all the time here.
I am bringing it up because I believe 3D graphics with a gameplay restricted to a 2D plane would suit the best to a HOMM game. I thought that was a given.
Also, history also tells us that isometric 2D has been part of the franchise before it went full 3D.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 26, 2014 10:44 PM |
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artu said:
Look, you may be impressed by shiny objects, so does a crow. Some people prefer much more practical things about game play and editing. Those have been already explained and enlisted by many, ignoring them and just saying "2D looks old" is not much of an argument, sticking to some trend just because it is the trend is also not. Having a critical approach in a remake is irrelevant (although I didnt agree with many of those objections), just because you are not critical doesn't necessarily make criticism a pure process of whining.
I love how you imply there is some army of fans that prefer that "practical" approach. In fact there is very small group that is under the radar of UBI.
Entire part about me saying that 2D is just old or that I prefer 3D because its trend, that I love shiny things... is just gibberish when you had nothing meaningful to say so ill skip explaining.
And entire list of pro 2D things are purely subjective, so you can stop pretending that you stand on the firm ground and that you are handing with facts. You are using your on preference based on your opinion and it has no objective value. Same goes for me.
What is fact is that Heroes game made in 2D technology belongs on Android market.
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This thread is pages long: 
