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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 26, 2014 10:58 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:00, 26 Dec 2014.
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This is page three (edit: now page four) of one of the many threads where people (including me) explained why they prefer 2D when it comes to Heroes. I really wont repeat what I talked about just a page ago. In return, all you presented as an argument was that it "looks" cheap and it's really quite a shallow argument. I dont understand why you keep bringing up subjectivity, since there cant be anything strictly objective about such an issue. However, my reasons were relatively less subjective compared to "it looks cheap," you can be sure of that.
As I already stated, there are both 3D and 2D Heroes games and the results about their revisitability and which ones lasted longer are quite clear.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 26, 2014 11:23 PM |
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You know, you are right about one thing. This is one of many threads started by few people from time to time where they present made up facts and tap each other on the back to feel good.
I'm just glad I'm not in the same boat with them. Stuck in the past playing same game over and over and feeling dissatisfied with each new Heroes game.
Heroes evolved, Heroes changed, Heroes moved on, you didn't. Problem is there.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted December 26, 2014 11:41 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
where they present made up facts and tap each other on the back to feel good. I'm just glad I'm not in the same boat with them.
...
dark-whisperer said:
2D games just ARE cheaper. Not one big developer will use 2D technology on any big game.
dark-whisperer said:
That's my subjective opinion. And I apparently happen to share it with overwhelming majority of Heroes players
dark-whisperer said:
What I know for sure is that 2D Heroes VIII would be the death of the franchise and wouldn't sell at all. And those same hardcore fans would criticize it the most.
dark-whisperer said:
There is active modding community and that's all. Those same people would hate another 2D heroes
dark-whisperer said:
I love how you imply there is some army of fans that prefer that "practical" approach. In fact there is very small group that is under the radar of UBI.
dark-whisperer said:
What is fact is that Heroes game made in 2D technology belongs on Android market.
lol
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 26, 2014 11:42 PM |
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@Dark-Whisperer makes same point as i did in my post, and it is the truth. 2D games are a thing of the past. Yes they made a resurgence in recent years in indie market or as free-2-play games and mobile games.
And to suggest 2D games are more expensive than 3D games is absurd. Even I have tried messing with sprites back in the day, for my personal enjoyment. And you can do it too in free program and using pain brush. You can even import presets which you can customize and change to your liking. I am not good. And in about an hour i can make a unique looking (but ugly) sprite using MS paint or even better Photoshop if i want.
And 2D by definition you CAN'T rotate camera around. Your looking angle is fixed. Sure you can always make more sprites to make it SEEM that objects are rotating or changing angle, even tho they're not. Like drawing a person from 3 - 4 diferent angles. But that's just a matter of adding a few more pint-brust immages.
Compare that to modern 3D modeling software. Everyone can make silly gifs in MS paint, but it's much harder to do anything serious with even more "easy to use" programs such as Blender. You also have to remember that you have to paint in textures for whole 360 degree object.
Sure animation seems simple, but it also can be a hasstle. When you have 10 immages for a 2D sprite you're basicly done, but in 3D it takes another new process to work on. And a lot of modern games also use motion-capture with some expensive equipment. And that is not saying anything about puting this model in a 3D enviorment and make it move and react to other 3D objects.
2D is more expensive and difficult to do than 3D?
This is clerly why most indie games are 3D right? lol 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 26, 2014 11:43 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:49, 26 Dec 2014.
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dark-whisperer said:
You know, you are right about one thing. This is one of many threads started by few people from time to time where they present made up facts and tap each other on the back to feel good.
I'm just glad I'm not in the same boat with them. Stuck in the past playing same game over and over and feeling dissatisfied with each new Heroes game.
Heroes evolved, Heroes changed, Heroes moved on, you didn't. Problem is there.
That is a completely false assumption since the new games dont have a younger but nevertheless just as strong fan base. You are like a teenager claiming Take That is just as good as the Beatles but old people dont get it. We've seen how long that lasted.
What you basically skip is this, after a few months, people go either editing special maps/modding or they go random map playing and 2D is much more effective in both approaches, for many reasons. The most important part to me is, random maps are never huge and therefore they dont have the same feeling of wilderness and surprise in 3D versions.
To others, it's the easiness of seeing things at once, which you again failed to grasp by taking things to an extreme and claimed you dont lose sight of things on both models. If I present you two papers, one white with black letters, one yellow with orange letters, if you focus, you can read the writings on both. That doesnt make both designs equally comfortable though, does it.
To speak as if the last Heroes games are a huge success and it's just a few nostalgic dinosaurs who fail to see that cant be further from the truth. They spoiled the credibility of a previously golden series, the best according to many and they are still trying to recover from that by bringing back old features. The most practical old feature was the 2D map, though.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 26, 2014 11:46 PM |
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@Dark-Whisperer
You are right on one thing: heroes moved. You are wrong on the other: we moved too. If you take a look into H3 moding area, you would see that the interfaces people created over years make any other heroes game look pale in comparison. Or we created those interfaces and tweaks because the game seemed optimal, both readability and game-play perspective. While H5-H6 did get 1% of the upgrades H3 did, if any.
So I think we beat a dead horse. People prefer one game, they can explain why, but your only argument is "you live in the past". I also like Skyrim for various reasons, so the release date is not the standard in my book.
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Era II mods and utilities
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 12:03 AM |
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Pawek_13 said:
okrane said:
lol, invoking the majority, of which you know nothing about.
you are a joke
A nice fact - Heroes V was the best selling game in the whole franchise. If it does not speak about majority, I don't know what does.
source?
also even if true you are ignoring the fact that the distribution power of videogames in the year 2005 (where internet was good enough for you to realistically download games) was way superior to the one in 1998.
Also, talking about the worth of a game in terms of copies sold is a very poor indicator of it's quality.
H5 was bought by nostalgic fans which hoped that the franchise would be revived, i.e. they were tricked into it. If H6 sales are lower than H5 this proves their dissapoint.
Also, as a funny parallel: Diablo 3 is probably the most sold game ever. Does that make it the best game ever? Better than Diablo 2? Any good?
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 12:05 AM |
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Edited by okrane at 00:16, 27 Dec 2014.
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dark-whisperer said:
You know, you are right about one thing. This is one of many threads started by few people from time to time where they present made up facts and tap each other on the back to feel good.
I'm just glad I'm not in the same boat with them. Stuck in the past playing same game over and over and feeling dissatisfied with each new Heroes game.
Heroes evolved, Heroes changed, Heroes moved on, you didn't. Problem is there.
you sound like a sad clown.
but you are right... we moved on... to other games, lol. cuz this one sucks major ass.
there's Eador, Age of Wonders, Civilisation, Total War, if you want TBS games... and plenty others which are properly executed.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 12:59 AM |
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okrane said:
but you are right... we moved on... to other games, lol. cuz this one sucks major ass.
there's Eador, Age of Wonders, Civilisation, Total War, if you want TBS games... and plenty others which are properly executed.
Spoken like a true Heroes fan. Bravo, sir!
You can leave the building now 
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 27, 2014 01:02 AM |
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Edited by TDL at 01:02, 27 Dec 2014.
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I actually think there is some ring of truth to statements about both combat map and adventure map failing to show everything clearly. However, in case you didn't notice, the problem arises not from the 3D view, but from how colorful the game is. Over saturation and less contours result in ridiculously colorful models.
I will reiterate that MMX took the best approach with its graphics, yet I can easily assume if it was scaled down, it will still look ridiculous because of HDR/bloom lighting + colorful palette.
If they removed the contrast slightly from the objects not involved in the battle or picked darker colors, it would be much more acceptable. Also, I wouldn't mind contours returning around certain objects or a certain glow, but not so much so that the visibility decreases.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 01:19 AM |
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I am no graphical expert, so can't say is because of colors or really bad design, but I see evidence between III and VI. I do not argue that overall ambiance is better, but the strategic perspective suffers a lot IMO. You see sh*t, have to go inside, zoom, rotate until you can have clear idea of what to do. The eye is constantly betrayed by all the fancy stuff around, trees, fauna or whatever. because when you go 3D you have to take care of all surrounding area as well, or it will look weird.
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Era II mods and utilities
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 27, 2014 01:25 AM |
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And yet, if the surrounding objects had their colors diluted and the creatures in the foreground had some contours, it would look very similar.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 01:29 AM |
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I am not sure, I think is intended. Look how the battlefield, in H6, is changing progressively the color, it has grass on sides (since there is forest nearby) and plains in middle. This is bad for strategy, imagine a chess board where squares become yellow, gray or green, depending on position.
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Era II mods and utilities
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 01:29 AM |
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dark-whisperer said:
okrane said:
but you are right... we moved on... to other games, lol. cuz this one sucks major ass.
there's Eador, Age of Wonders, Civilisation, Total War, if you want TBS games... and plenty others which are properly executed.
Spoken like a true Heroes fan. Bravo, sir!
You can leave the building now
I am a fan of Heroes 1 to 4. This new crap simply is bad.
Heroes 5 I got bored of after 2 months (compared to 3 and 4 which I still play sometime)
Heroes 6 didnt' even buy, couldn't be arsed.
I am not a fan of a product which obviously tries to rip me off instead of providing something deep and valuable.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 01:31 AM |
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Salamandre said:
I am no graphical expert, so can't say is because of colors or really bad design, but I see evidence between III and VI. I do not argue that overall ambiance is better, but the strategic perspective suffers a lot IMO. You see sh*t, have to go inside, zoom, rotate until you can have clear idea of what to do. The eye is constantly betrayed by all the fancy stuff around, trees, fauna or whatever. because when you go 3D you have to take care of all surrounding area as well, or it will look weird.
I would say that if I were to accept something in 3D that would be the combat screen. In the images above you can clearly see that 2D is just play better. (clearer and nicer)
And here is an example in Eador of 3D combat screen done right:
  
the adventure map is the bigger problem though. It's like somehow you can fit more stuff into a 2D map than in a 3D one. It's a weird thing.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 27, 2014 01:55 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 02:30, 27 Dec 2014.
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TDL said:
And yet, if the surrounding objects had their colors diluted and the creatures in the foreground had some contours, it would look very similar.
Well, H5 looked closer to H3, but I still see the same problem than what the other 3D screens showed.
It looks even better with Xuxo's pre-rendered textures mod, which are less flashy.
So as much as I hear and agree about your critic regarding H6 dancehall fest, I still think is not a matter of color, but of perspective. Again, I want you to look closer to the female archer in Trine 2's screenshot, now if units were like that (bigger ofc).
And can you picture the kind of battlefield you could have ? It could be richer than H6 one, and yet you would see everything regarding tactics.
@Salamandre : I precisely don't like the screenshot of H3 you posted because of the creature sizes.
I can see its qualities because dragons looks imposing, but it saddens me to see creatures such as elves, pegasi, minotaur, medusae etc reduced to such small size.
I don't care much about realism artistically speaking, as I said a bit earlier, I want to see very well the creatures.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 27, 2014 02:12 AM |
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I don't disagree that improving perspective would be a pleasing feature, but doing away with the ridiculous lighting would do wonders. Now, I'm no photoshop expert, and it took me under 2 mins, to come up with these two rehashed pics, but I believe there is enough reason to prove my point that even with a lot of 3d paraphernalia, the game would likely look less cluttered if there was a convincing difference in contrast between the battlemap/other features of the battlefield.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 27, 2014 02:13 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 02:27, 27 Dec 2014.
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TDL said:
I don't disagree that improving perspective would be a pleasing feature, but doing away with the ridiculous lighting would do wonders.
I never said the opposite 
In fact, both colors and perspective should be improved, and perhaps you just made me realize that they are just as important one another.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 27, 2014 02:18 AM |
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That was precisely my goal. Cause every battlefield since H4 has deteriorated in colour/hue vs saturation balance because of forced bloom-lighting. And adventure map just as well, but it just is so much harder to balance everything on it since it contains so many more objects. Even the ridiculous models would look better if done with proper lighting/color-palette. Because it by itself improves the perspective without actually working on it and fixes another issue altogether.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 27, 2014 02:26 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 02:28, 27 Dec 2014.
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TDL said:
Because it by itself improves the perspective without actually working on it and fixes another issue altogether.
Maybe I am understanding you wrong but it looks like you are making it sound like colors is more important than perspective, when I think they are both of equal importance.
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This thread is pages long: 
