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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 10:20 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:37, 27 Dec 2014.
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artu said:
MattII, you miss the point, the whole idea of 3D is that it looks more realistic, so there is a difference of degree to how out of proportion things will get. As I already stated, everything is never in perfect proportion to each other anyway, yet, 3D tries to keep it as realistic as possible, that's why it developed in the first place. Otherwise, on a monitor, visualizing a strategy is always easier with this:
rather than this:
One issue you have yet to resolve, map spacing. It's all very well trying to keep things proportional (and let's not forget, the hero on the map is merely an icon, so sizing anything much to him isn't necessary) but if a town is 5 x 5 and a dwelling is 2 x 2, then the dwelling is still going to appear huge in comparison the the town. Mind you, since you no longer need a massive tower to differentiate the building from its surroundings, you can make the buildings themselves much more realistic (an archers' building is some walls and towers around a big open area for example).
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 10:21 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:25, 27 Dec 2014.
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dark-whisperer said:
How can you say that 3D is better option in RTS where you have to react very fast when you have problem with visibility in TBS where you have all the time in the world to make your move?
Poll in hive of Heroes 3 modders comunity ended in favour of Heroes 3. Whata shocker. But are we talking about what game was better or is 2D or 3D execution more suited?
Because, I dont care about realism on adventure map when I dont have real time fights on it. It's irrelevant eye candy, not to mention, not necessarily better looking eye candy.
And there are hundreds of votes in that poll by everyone, the poll displays on main page not just H3 section for modders. If you are going to disregard that a single game in a total of 5 got 66 percent of the votes ten years after its release, I dont know what to tell you.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 10:25 AM |
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I think he means not many H5 players enter the H1-3 library. Is a bit like the poll about best game in H5 forum, very unlike that H3 players go there, if they still play the game, it means they don't like H5, so forum has no interest.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 10:28 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:31, 27 Dec 2014.
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Well, I dont go to H5 forums either but I can still see the poll on main page and vote, it's not a poll for specialists of one game. But comparing the results from your link on H5 section poll, you have a point in there. Yet, H3 still beats them with Wog.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 10:31 AM |
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A majority of HC users don't bookmark the main page, but rather the section they are interested in, so they never see otehr forum posts advertised. You can see that a very small percentage is multi-forum posting. I do same when I go in Firaxis or Blizzard forums, sometimes I only bookmark a thread.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 10:37 AM |
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Total 166 people voted on that particular poll. Its tiny sample and as I said on part of fan site where Heroes 3 is treated like flawless game (until HD release is announced and then its convenient to show all its bugs and downfalls that needs to be corrected).
I saw polls on this site that ended up wildly different then on official blog which has much larger sample.
People here were in favor of balance or shield sylvari lineup and in reality fury won. Dungeon was almost in 80% favorite faction and when voting started it won by 12% against least favorite faction on the polls on this same site.
Those polls are meaningless and again we are not talking about which game was better or more popular on fan site. If you ignore sales figures as indication which was more successful I'm certanly not going to accept polls here.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 10:42 AM |
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H3 is not treated as flawless game, but the game with biggest potential, nuance. In the modding forum, people worked hard to try to fix many issues, bugs and incoherences. So, from this point of view, after all the work was done to improve interface, diminish bugs and all that stuff, to see Ubisoft wants to achieve a virginity by releasing the old bugged game, with only improved graphics, is laughable. Especially if we know there won't be map generator or compatibility with ab/sod, which is ~90% of HoMM legacy today, maps/campaigns.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 10:47 AM |
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We (the rest of us) are mainly discussing game dynamics, not temporary popularity. I brought up the poll from 2009 because you specifically asked if anybody would be buying 2D in this age. They would, if a game is enjoyable, nobody will trash it because it's not 3D, they wont care. All it takes is a hype, just look at Angry Birds.
And it has already been mentioned that sales of H5 were high due to the fact that it was a back to H3 game, yet, H6 sold less because people were relatively disappointed. Comparing sales from different periods is flawed logic, Meat Loaf sold more than anyone from the 60's and any summer blockbuster from 2000's sold more than all the movie classics before 90's. That's about capitalist expansion of the market.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 11:00 AM |
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I asked would producers invest in TBS franchise flagship if the game was made in 2D at this age.
I'm not inherently against 2D. This War of Mine is excellent game with gorgeous graphic, I love Worms and I much more enjoy 2D version. I don't say game can't be beautiful and be 2D.
What I say is that full priced modern TBS with pedigree cant afford to downgrade graphic and hope to make a profit.
And to add to that I much more like 3D heroes. At least visually.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 11:11 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:13, 27 Dec 2014.
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Well, the point is, there are a lot of people who do not perceive it as a downgrade, especially when it comes to the HOMM franchise, and my impression is that their multitude is more than what you presumably estimate.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 27, 2014 11:12 AM |
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artu said:
All it takes is a hype, just look at Angry Birds.
I would not consider a comparison between PC games and smartphone games a good choice. Gamers anticipate different experience from both platforms. Games on PC are usually complex, have many different mechanics to be masteredand people play them in long sessions. Smartphone games, on the other hand, are simple and played in short sessions in order to distract oneself and Angry Birds provides with just that. 3D would in case of that game with another layer of unwanted complexity for designers and players, therefore 3D was more of a design choice rather than aesthetic one.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 11:16 AM |
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Fair point, replace Angry Birds example with any 2D PC game that is a commerical success then.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 27, 2014 11:30 AM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 11:35, 27 Dec 2014.
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artu said:
Fair point, replace Angry Birds example with any 2D PC game that is a commerical success then.
To be honest, the only one that comes to my mind is Shovel Knight. As for an indie game it sold astoundingly well but its success is dwarfed by the fact that it was simultaneously released on Wii U and 3DS. This is the problem - there aren't many new and non-indie 2D games that have achieved a success which is comparible to the one achieved by 3D games. Take Rayman Legends for example. It is a superb game with amazing art style, which was one of the best games of 2013, yet its sales were much smaller than expected! It sold around 1 million copies on all of its platforms (the only consoles, on which it was not released were Wii and 3DS), which is not that big of a number.
PS. There is also new Mortal Kombat and Injustice: Gods among us, but fighting games are in vast majority 2D because of mechanics, not art style.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 11:41 AM |
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If many 15 year old people discover and play H3, if many many people still prefer it to all other Heroes games, why shoudnt they pay to play a more polished, modern version of the game with the same basics? I see no reason to assume that it would fail, especially with the legacy of H3, still so strong. Imagine the amount of data, creatures, maps, specialties you can fit into a 2D game with modern disk capacities, H3 filled less than a GB of harddisk space, just consider the posibilities of a 4 GB game with HD graphics and enormous campaigns. It would be so awesome if executed well, nobody would turn away just because it's not 3D, even people who prefer 3D would give it a shot, once the word is out.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 27, 2014 12:24 PM |
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@artu:
I see your point and I agree that 2D games are great (at least the good ones  ) but 3D games simply sell better nowadays. If Ubi and Limbic want the franchise to popularize the franchise, they utilize the means that would let this goal be achieved with greatest probability and in this case that means are 3D graphics.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 12:31 PM |
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@artu: But why then not have only squares with names on them and numbers on bottom, to represent a creature? Or maybe you hover over a red square, a picture of a create would pop up for example? Or something like this ...
Surely this would be the most readable form?
I mean to hell with all discussion on the looks, art and design of creatures... they are pointless anyway right? 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 12:36 PM |
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They are not pointless, as long as they dont effect gameplay in a negative way, they are very welcome. I will not repeat for a third time the perks of a 2D map over a 3D one, it's starting to get exhausting, you exeggarate and you reduce my point into something radically different.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 12:47 PM |
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artu said:
Imagine the amount of data, creatures, maps, specialties you can fit into a 2D game with modern disk capacities, H3 filled less than a GB of harddisk space, just consider the posibilities of a 4 GB game with HD graphics and enormous campaigns. It would be so awesome if executed well, nobody would turn away just because it's not 3D, even people who prefer 3D would give it a shot, once the word is out.
I'm starting to sense that all this have to do something with system requirements. Or I'm mistaken?
I have no problem to download and install 25GB full 3D, shaders mumbo jumbo game at all. I don't really care how big it is or what system specs are, also I know that average computer will push Heroes without any problems on max settings.
And its true, I would give it a shot but only if its under 20$.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 12:56 PM |
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Not personally. I have an iMac that also runs Win7 and things are fine. What I was trying to emphasize is, with a 2D advanture map and recent computer technology, the random map generators or the game in general would be able to do things swiftly in such enormous scales, people wouldnt even bother to miss 3D. My experience is that if a game is really good, people get over looks quickly (and an artistically done 2D will look great and refined anyway) but if a game looks good but there is a decrease in playability, the looks lose their charm quite fast.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 01:08 PM |
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This discussion has degenerated into something which it shouldn't be.
A couple of idealistic 3D fanatics with no arguments whatsoever sticking to their guns just because "3D is better".
We have clear proof in the past that the 2D games were better in terms of:
- mapmaking community: easy map making in 2D by everyone which means the community can be involved in developing the game. How many custom maps did H5 have and how many did H3 have? The numbers are heavily skewed towards H3 here and there's simply no contest. This contributes to the longevity fo the game and the community as a whole. In H5 you had a few maps and then it was goodbye to recycle bin.
- game performance: remember how snowty the performance of H5 was? After 1hour of play all those memory leaks start taking a toll.
- strategy: stuff being more clear and crisp on the map and not bothering with rotating and perspective is a clear improvement. Even modern 3D strategy games focus on clarity for their game whereas here H5 was clearly very confusing especially on the adventure map.
So let's be practical here, shall we.
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This thread is pages long: 
