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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 425 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 268 269 270 271 272 ... 300 350 400 425 · «PREV / NEXT»
dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 19, 2017 03:46 PM
Edited by dredknight at 15:48, 19 Aug 2017.

Skeggy said:
Relic-level artefacts are extremely powerful and can very easily overpower any equation-based balance if suddenly there is excess of money.



Sudden excess of money is game changer even without the Merchant.
All income of money is justified by the doings of the player - conquering new city, getting new mines, collecting treasures, clearing sites.

Not to be rude but Dragon Utopia example is not quite valid because besides the money the player receives he also gets quite some casualties. This is a very late game structure because dragons + Phoenixes are not to be messed with in any occasion - Phoenix are fast and do loads of damage and while you take care of them your troops are in dragons reach.

If my hero is strong enough to take Utopia, he is strong enough to take care of the opponent. The second option is always better .

P.S. also the merchant costs some money and resources to build.
Plus you can set a rule not to use them if you dont like them.

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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 19, 2017 04:12 PM

dredknight said:

If my hero is strong enough to take Utopia, he is strong enough to take care of the opponent.



AFAIK setting a rule for disabling in-city artifact merchant demands opening map in map editor. And what if there are many towns on map and what if some towns are changed within active game?
Certainly, it is far simpler to just have one option in MMH55-Settings.pak file.

Sudden excess of money is a game changer, but there is a certain effort behind that.
Possibility of buying relic level artifacts with (with ease of access of in-city artifact merchant or out-of-the-city artifact merchant) is something that diminishes value of a strategical and tactical investment in game.

How you get relic level artefacts (RLA) is heavier argument than playstyle because RLA can empower any kind of playstyle, even one without any kind of reason, logic and meaning.

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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 19, 2017 04:32 PM
Edited by dredknight at 23:03, 19 Aug 2017.

Skeggy said:

How you get relic level artefacts (RLA) is heavier argument than playstyle because RLA can empower any kind of playstyle, even one without any kind of reason, logic and meaning.


Especially for magic heroes. Their damage output does not depend on creature count so just going for high spellpower count can do the job. But still it costs money and thus slow town development. I will just leave this up to here cause there can be more strategies. Unless you want to discuss something specific.

Btw I like how this game strategy look like starcraft's. You can do a all-in push with artifacts and raw magic or face extinction later in game if you dont manage the push on time. PEST make this even closer with the real time play of cat and mouse.


@Magnomagus, I have a complaint regarding the AI. I know what we can do is limited I just want you to tell me if you have seen such issue or not.

"Well the bot just goes to a seer hut and it straight up crashes, but i think it has to do with a bug from the random map generation because when i check the whole map in the editor there is only one seer hut. Don't know but if you encounter crashes in game you can check if there is any seer hut but again i think it's just bad luck ^^'

Game is hotseat with 3 bots and me on a belt generated map, i used mapmixer to make it compatible wth hotseat and lan (if that helps)

"

Also he says that game and mod installation are done correctly. I have never seen such thing.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 19, 2017 11:22 PM

@skeggy: if I had designed game from scratch I would not have added artifact merchants to town, but now they exist I just balanced them best I can.

@dredknight: actually if the crash is really caused by visiting the seer hut, then I think something can be done about it, but i will need a save game to verify that.

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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 20, 2017 10:18 AM
Edited by dredknight at 11:00, 20 Aug 2017.

@Magno, false news. It seems after reinstalling the game + mod AI is now working normally when it goes to a hut...

Not sure if you missed it or not but a French translation of the mod was uploaded.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 20, 2017 08:22 PM

Thanks, I read over that, this is great news. But today i have issues getting into moddb.

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 21, 2017 12:49 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 12:55, 21 Aug 2017.

Skeggy said:
Relic-level artefacts are extremely powerful and can very easily overpower any equation-based balance if suddenly there is excess of money.


Not sure if you have noticed, but the artifact merchant always offers 3 minor artifacts on the top row and 2 major + 1 relic on the bottom row.
And since its stock refreshes once a month you get the opportunity to buy only 1 relic/month.
And also many relic arts are situational -> like ring of machine affinity, sandro's cloak, mask of equity, amulet of necromancy, pendant of conflux, staff of sar-issus  etc.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 21, 2017 01:16 PM

Not to mention that their price does not allow early use. Both dungeon and academy are powerful in earlygame but if the opponent takes too long to engage them, it is their responsibility.
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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 21, 2017 07:04 PM

Elvin said:
Both dungeon and academy are powerful in earlygame but if the opponent takes too long to engage them, it is their responsibility.

I would disagree about dungeon. With low mana and weak starting armies dungeon heroes cant do as much as Havez/Kaspar/Vitto/Dougal/Haggash/Telsek/Deleb/Ossir/Karli/Ingvar etc. Dungeon also doesnt have an easy way to revive  dead units -> other towns use war machines, regeneration, ressurection, vampirism, raise dead(necro only), but with dungeon it is not likely to get those especially early in the game. Which leads to problems creeping gargoyle stone vaults (lots of units with immunities), elemental stockpiles (same), treant thickets, blood temples, mage vaults etc. Utopia is not easy either. Dwarven treasury should be simple to loot but its not - stalkers + spells works only if you have mana. Dungeon heroes start with 10 mana and regenerate 1 mana/day.
On L/XL rmg maps with very strong creatures + hard diff dungeon is on the bottom of the food chain.

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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 21, 2017 07:58 PM
Edited by dredknight at 20:22, 21 Aug 2017.

Ok I will separate this talk into 3 categories:
- Dungeon Might - First prediction was just as yours - that they are going to suck big time due to small army count and inability to regenerate. But after a couple of tryouts and discussions with one player we found a really neat development we never thought about.

Here is a routine that will blow your mind (at least it blew mine).
Might Dungeon hero can kill ANY NPC archers on the map as early as at level 1 or 2 with near zero casualties.

Imagine the following battlefield setup:
The enemy - 2 archer stacks with 10 init.
Dungeon might - 6 stacks of 1 blood furies, 1 stack of melee attackers. Lets make it harder for us, let them be minotaurs.

Battle begins and the order of events is the following every time:
1. All Blood furies act first, they all go maximum forward. None of them reaches the archers.
2. due to the the advanced/expert Leadership ability there is 40/50% chance any of the blood fury will get leadership. Lets say we have bad luck - only 2 will get such. this is 33%.
3. Due to having high initiative the bonus Leadership will make the furies act second time before the enemy archers shoot. The two furies block the archer stacks.
4. Minotaur moves forward

Make the math - there are 3x10 init time where the shooters do not shoot but kill 6 furies. Meanwhile the hero hit thrice, and mintoaur move twice and will hit the first archer before he can shoot 4th time.

Just to make it clear this is worst case scenario as Dungeon hero will have Tier 1 units which are faster. Also this strategy can be augmented with skills like
- basic combat -> chain attack -> stunning strike.
- Dark magic with -> mass slow
- Prayer or encourage

- Dungeon balanced - half of them do just as good as might because of their specializations:
  a) Vayshan with invisible stalkers
  b) Thralasai with Rusher specialization spell teleport can drop hydras on top of archers any day
  c) Lethos with Poision master and invisible stalkers can be good as well.

   The other 3 are a bit difficult early game but can be deadly later on:
  d) Eruina + Shadow Matriarchs + damaging spell + Sorcery + Mark of the sorcerer is really fun. I believe it can be easily countered with blind and/or Puppet but I am not sure if the specialization may still work under these effects. If it do it will be awesome.
 e) Yrbeth - Manticore qeen spec - I am not going to discuss third party creature spec. It has its place in PvP but it is totally different topic.
 f) Welygg - Never played him. Probably will have the hardest eary game of all Dungeon heroes but combined with Snatch and expert logistics he can make fortune with his specialization.

- Dungeon magic heroes start with 2 knowledge (and one of them with 3 because of specialization) they tend to progress way faster because due to fighting "very strong" monsters they level up quickly and get a lot of early spell damage. Especially on small maps we had that issue in the early versions where Dungeon magic hero will totally obliterate any mightish oriented heroes because the damage burst was simply off the hook.  Despite their early game is still very strong they damage burst was toned down a bit at that stage of the game.

Final line - the problem with Heroes franchise is that it is disbalanced. Disbalanced game offers near one dimensional strategy options because there is just one or two strong tactics to use and due to the disbalance all other tactic choices offer weaker output so they are considered obsolete and noone uses them.

Example from heroes 3 -> People often play Craig Hack with Castle and Orin with Academy with melee and range units.

Making a heroes game balanced vastly increase tactics potential because there is no overpowered path. Each path offers strengths and weaknesses so it comes down to the player gameplay neatness to make a perfect run.

Cheers
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Bro-cool-Lee
Bro-cool-Lee

Tavern Dweller
posted August 25, 2017 05:31 PM

Hi there!

I am having the same bug as reported by several others: Flashing mouse cursor from something to hourglass repeatedly. Also tried modification on graphics and sounds without any improvement. Also happens in mid-late game, single player versus several AI.

After experimenting, I found a fix for my personal game:

As long as the game is in good state, so without the switching mouse cursor, I type @H55_SetSleepTime(100) before turn end. Then I end the turn during which usually the bug starts happening. Console log reports, that scripts have crashed during AI turn, but: The mouse cursor behaves normal and I can continue playing normally. I reverse the setting back to @H55_SetSleepTime(2) after success. Unfortunately, this trick does not help on Katarus' save game posted on moddb some time ago. But IMHO it indicates, that the cause is somewhere in the H55-Scripts.

What I noticed during AI turn:
On both, Katarus' and my save file, one of the AI players uses Town Gate or Town Management during the bugged turn.

My save: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=00010791452738628205

Cheers

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 25, 2017 06:08 PM

Thanks, that is interesting info,

It is not an error in script programming, but deeper, where I cannot get to it. It may also be limited to certain types of CPU, I don't know yet.
It may  be fixable for the select group of people that have it by finding an optimum sleep time adjusted to your CPU.

What is your CPU and clockspeed? also is it overclocked yes or no?

have you tried setting sleep time to 1 or 3?


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Bro-cool-Lee
Bro-cool-Lee

Tavern Dweller
posted August 25, 2017 08:38 PM
Edited by Bro-cool-Lee at 22:44, 25 Aug 2017.

Welcome, I appreciate Your efforts into this mod

So for settings:
1 = bug
2 = bug
3 = bug
50 = Script crash & restart + bug (!!!)
100 = Script crash & restart + no bug

Well think it makes no sense to find the precise minimal number which allows normal play.

CPU is G4560 not overclocked at 3,5 ghz
OS is win7

Edit: Forgot to mention. Game has continued for another ingame month now, setting 2 always active. AI keeps town gating continuously and still I did not encounter the bug again. Yet.

Edit2: Ran into the bug again. Now it is not fixable with setting 100, like with the game from moddb comments.

Tried also H55_Off - no success.
Tried to team-up the AI against me to change AI turn behavior - no success.
Tried CPUKiller to slow down CPU rate - no success.

Tried H55_Off on my first save game: successful, bug prevented.

Is there a way for me to take over/ switch off single AI players to see which AI action/ trigger is causing this? I mean, it is part of the save files as well, once triggered. Reloading does not help.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 25, 2017 11:37 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 23:39, 25 Aug 2017.

I don't think the issue has anything to do with town gating or an AI player specifically.

I also think it is possible problem is created earlier than during the turn it first happens and then gets somehow embedded in the save file. This could explain it never happened to me but i was still able to have it with katarus save file. using H55_Off didn't work for me either. H55_off pretty much rules out that anything script related during the Ai turn triggers it at that moment.

Since your CPU and Katarus are both very high speed on single core, I still suspect it may have something to do with the CPU speed. Normally less sleep time is better for faster CPU so I wonder if you start a new game and play with sleeptime 1 from the start (or with cpukiller lowered to 3ghz at sleeptime 2 from the start), perhaps the problem will not be created.

This could also explain why for a long time the issue was never found or reported, since fewer people would have these new faster cpus back in those days.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 26, 2017 12:11 AM

Another thing worth noting is you and katarus both played very large maps.
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Bro-cool-Lee
Bro-cool-Lee

Tavern Dweller
posted August 27, 2017 12:39 AM

Agree, we have these things in common. Epic gameplay is a nice motivation.

I have news about a reliable bugfix for this problem for my case and the case of katarus.

For me, if I take over the hero Sandro in both cases, the bug does not occur. Sandro gets stuck during his turn in both cases. If I take him over and release him on the next turn back to AI player, the bug does not occur and he is not stuck.

By take over i mean @SetObjectOwner("Sandro",4)

For Katarus savegame, if I take over Ebba (Scriptname: "Bersy"), the bug does not occur. Now the really best part (in terms of debugging): When I take over Ebba and dismiss her from the game, the orange AI player hires a new hero (as a replacement for Ebba) and performs the absolutely same action again, leading to the bug again after 2 turns.

I think there might now be a quite precise anchor point to look at. You will know quite better debugging methods than me (who has now like ~5 hrs 'experience' in this field...).
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 27, 2017 11:30 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 11:33, 27 Aug 2017.

Thanks this could be helpful later but for now this doesn't reveal much actually.

Sandro has a lua specialty, ebba has a C++ specialty. This difference is clearly not relevant. I think by removing a hero from the equasion you just simplify the next turn calculation and prevent things from going wrong.

My best hope is still sleeptime 1 invoked immediately after starting a new game (to fix the issue without reducing clockspeed or playing smaller maps). Can you open MMH55-Index.pak -> folder 'scripts' open H55-Core.lua then among the very first lines of the file there is a variable H55_Cyclespeed = 2; set it to 1 and save close. Now sleeptime will be 1 from the first second of a new game but it won't work for save files.

Also on a side note I cannot use your save file since I don't have the map.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 27, 2017 11:49 AM

dredknight said:
Here is a routine that will blow your mind (at least it blew mine).
Might Dungeon hero can kill ANY NPC archers on the map as early as at level 1 or 2 with near zero casualties.

Battle begins and the order of events is the following every time:
1. All Blood furies act first, they all go maximum forward. None of them reaches the archers.
2. due to the the advanced/expert Leadership ability there is 40/50% chance any of the blood fury will get leadership. Lets say we have bad luck - only 2 will get such. this is 33%.
3. Due to having high initiative the bonus Leadership will make the furies act second time before the enemy archers shoot. The two furies block the archer stacks.

Heh, buxyrs was using something similar with sylvan when I first joined toh I have not heard of this tactic used in a very long time.
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Bro-cool-Lee
Bro-cool-Lee

Tavern Dweller
posted August 27, 2017 12:14 PM
Edited by Bro-cool-Lee at 14:08, 27 Aug 2017.

No problem at all, I will try and restart a large map with setting SleepTime = 1. Might of course be quite a random outcome, but since every game I start runs sooner or later into this bug, it might also lead to a 'fix'.

Sorry for that, thought the map information is stored in the save as well. https://ufile.io/fjesz
This includes: 2 savegames in OK state, after turn end its bugged. And the map.

I have the suspicion that the size of the map just determines the likeliness of bug occurence. Of course, it makes combinations of different triggers in save files also more likely.

It is for sure not about Ebba or Sandro. As I said, most interesting to me is, that with katarus' savegame, you can dismiss Ebba, Ebba gets replaced by the orange AI with another hero and this hero will perform the exactly same actions with the new hero again and will also lead to the bugged state after 2 turns. So the trigger (even if it is some function that does not work properly with high-tick-rate-CPUs) is actuated 100% reproducably.

About this simplifying thing you mentioned:
Clearly, no. I tested this with every single hero. Only removing Sandro on my games and Ebba on katarus' game remove the bug.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 27, 2017 03:06 PM

Quote:
I have the suspicion that the size of the map just determines the likeliness of bug occurence.


Yes, perhaps it could also be related to memory speed but I have little knowledge of such things.
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