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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 287 pages long: 1 40 80 120 160 200 240 ... 270 271 272 273 274 ... 280 287 · «PREV / NEXT»
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 02, 2017 11:58 AM

magnomagus said:
You can tell where I'm wrong:

The avg ini of all haven upgrades is 10.14
but by default they have 2 morale so if you place 7 creatures on the battlefield.
1.4 creatures will get a boost of 0.4 ATB every round which is an ini boost of 1/0.6 = 1.667.
The other 5.6 creatures get nothing so 1.4x1.667 + 5.6x1 / 7 = 1.1334
1.1334 x 10.14 = an actual avg ini is 11.49

repeat the calculation for 1 morale and the actual ini is 10.81 which is a reduction of 6%

So the staff makes a 14% difference between the 2 players. But since the morale effect only works after the ATB bars are filled during the first turn the actual effect is probably worth ~16%.

If the morale penalty was -2 the difference would be 8%, so probably 10%, so similar to the ring of celerity.



hm... I can add 2 things to the formula.


1. For the sake of speed difference lets assume that -20% init is the same as +20% init.

So the staff actually grants 20% more initiative to the native hero army but as leadership is bound to initiative the moral bonus - flat compared to the enemy army initiative is not 0.4 but 0.48.
Spreading the math:
Army A has 10 init vs Army B - 10 init.
Staff gives 20% to Army A so it goes to 12 init.
0.4 leadrship bonus now grants 4.8 base init (based on 12) compared to 4 (based on 10).

2. Magic heroes get even higher boost as they get 20% atb boost compared to the enemy creatures (this is good for destruction based heroes) also Summoning based heroes get their summons 20% more speed, which will be ok if the -1 moral penalty affects the creatures (as they will go to -1). But I cannot confirm this because when I run the test I found out the -1 morale penalty does not work at all. Can you check?


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 02, 2017 02:05 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 14:38, 02 Sep 2017.

Quote:
but as leadership is bound to initiative the moral bonus - flat compared to the enemy army initiative is not 0.4 but 0.48.


no I think you misunderstand something here, ATB bonus and initiative are different things.

initiative = speed of filling the bar
ATB bonus = changing where the bar starts

0.4 will always be 0.4, initiative determines how fast the remaining 0.6 is filled.

so 10 ini + 0.5ATB bonus == 20 ini

Quote:
I cannot confirm this because when I run the test I found out the -1 morale penalty does not work at all. Can you check?


you are right, no wonder the artifact still rocked, but this is easily fixable bug.
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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 02, 2017 03:10 PM

Yes I did the math wrong. Instead of doing the math over the ATB I did it over the init. Case closed.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 02, 2017 03:57 PM

I did some more calculations and found some interesting things you probably never realized:

the avg ini boost for entire army over 5 turns from

1 morale = 5.3%
2 morale = 11%
5 morale = 26.6%

It can only get better by calculating it over more than 5 turns, never worse.

so boost from staff is ~15% difference if it works as intended.
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azalen
azalen


Hired Hero
posted September 02, 2017 04:43 PM

Elvin said:
You are going about it the wrong way. First off, you'll need logistics and if you are going destructive then sorcery and enlightenment, maybe luck for caster's luck. But armageddon is much much better early than later so why would you prepare for lategame? You could rush week 3-4 with just gremlin saboteurs(protection and maybe hp artie) and the magic immune obsidian gargoyles. No fear of warmachines, hostile magic or stronger armies.


TY Elvin.  I'm aware of how to use Armageddon on a practical basis.

This is more of a "Theory Craft" thought experiment of how you would most minimize damage to a full "final battle" army deployment using the mathematical resist/magic proof/fire resist rules of 5.5.  

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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 02, 2017 04:44 PM

Thanks for clarification.
I spoke with a person from the Russian TE league. He complained that the animation speed is too low (value goes between 1.0 and 3.0).

They are using value of 100.0 for obvious reasons.

I believe in the current state, the slider values are very close to each other and do not change the speed to a significant extent for the player.

I did a change to the slider with the following values - 1, 2, 3, 6, 100 (original is 1.0, 1.2, 1.5, 2, 3) and gave it a go. It looks much better as it gives the user to optimally sacrifice visuals for speed or the other way around.

Here is the modified package. Put it in data and give a go.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 02, 2017 05:14 PM

excellent, never knew this was possible
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strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted September 02, 2017 06:16 PM

It is a mistake to assume +20% init has the same effect as -20%. The former has diminishing returns, while the latter - increasing ones. You need +100% bonus (unattainable afaik) to double the init of your units, while only -50% (high powered slow and the staff) to half the init of enemies.
The influence of morale on the average init is interesting, but in the end depends on init of particular units. By slowing them you also cut down the morale efficiency.
Not to mention the staff provides the penalty right off the bat and it's the enemy problem to counteract it in the combat.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 02, 2017 07:56 PM

you are right I overlooked that a 20% decrease is actually equal to a 25% increase so the proper way to balance it is a -2 morale penalty to bring the difference back to 15%

also the slow spell should have different formula (I think it is currently still overpowered), if haste increases by 0.0033 per SP, slow should decrease by 0.0025 per SP.

Quote:
By slowing them you also cut down the morale efficiency.


No, morale is always 100% effective, if this was a race it would simply shorten the track for one of the contestants.
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stachnie
stachnie


Adventuring Hero
posted September 03, 2017 08:02 AM

I think the effects of Academy mini-artifacts are not properly balanced. Lowering the initiative boost was a good move (+50% Ini for 50 Knowledge was too much, now this is about 25%) but I think armor reduction for each hit is too strong. Previously it was about 2 times smaller than the bonus to Attack, now this is something like 75% or 80%. I find this effect very strong anyway (especially for tough battles), so there is no need to enhance it even more.

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Bro-cool-lee
Bro-cool-lee

Tavern Dweller
posted September 03, 2017 10:33 AM

Hey magno,

Sorry to interrupt the current discussion. There is some feedback regarding the hourglass cursor issue.

Since I followed Your proposal to change sleeptime to 1 I was finally able to complete a huge map without running into the bug. Since really every game I had was sooner or later bugged, this is also a strong indicator that you are right. If someone else runs into this issue, I would recommend changing the sleeptime setting first.

Cheers

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dabuthegreat
dabuthegreat


Adventuring Hero
posted September 03, 2017 12:42 PM

Just dropping by to share something I've found during my last game. Not sure if it's intended or not, but when using "Boots of levitation" (don't know if that's how they called in English - anyway, they provide +2 do SP and Knowledge and let you walk on water) it looks like my hero has a lot less movement. I'm quessing it neglets the bonus from Logistics. Switching to different boots returned it to normal.

It's worth checking out if it hasn't been reported yet (or it's intended - anyway, would be nice to add it to the description).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 03, 2017 12:45 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 12:48, 03 Sep 2017.

@stachnie: how much knowledge did you have when you felt it was too strong?

@bro-cool-lee: Thanks, this is great news, I will have to make this setting user configurable and add explanantions.

If anyone else has encountered this issue, I would like to know your cpu type and clockspeed (overclocked or not). To get a better idea at what point a shorter sleep time is recommended.


@dabuthegreat: hm.. this sounds like a vanilla bug that was never found and is impossible to fix.
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strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted September 03, 2017 03:34 PM

I've came up with a meme Armageddon build (don't guarantee a viability):

Faction - Sylvan
Hero - Ylthin
Skill layout -
Army composition - Druid Elders, High Druids, 5 stacks of evenly split Pristine Unicorns.

Items:
Rings - Cursed Ring and Ring of the Broken Will or 2x of either of those. 2x Rings of Celerity are fine too.
Necklace - Pendant of Magic Mastery, Dragon Teeth Necklace.
Shield - Skull of Netherworld, Shield of Sentinel (absolute BiS, but I don't think you can get it in timely manner to benefit fully).
Weapon - Staff of Netherworld, Staff of Sar-Issus, Staff of Saint.
Cloak - Cloak of Death's Shadow, Phoenix Feather Cape.
Helmet - Crown of Sar-Issus, Helmet of the Forgotten Hero.
Cuirass - Cuirass of the Forgotten Hero, Robe of Sar-Issus.
Pocket - Book of Power, Shackles of the Last Man, Tome of Destruction Magic.
Boots - Greaves of the Dwarven Kings, Dragon Bone Greaves, Boots of the Swift Journey.

Combat:
Place druids in opposite ends, cover each with 2 stacks of unicorns. Elders will cast Endurance on the stack of High Druids (and thus on every stack of unicorns), High Druids will cast Channeling. The hero will cast Regeneration and Haste on the stack of High Druids (and thus on every stack of unicorns). And then you can start raining empowered armas. High Druids can later cast Righteous Might. Shackles will really help resurrecting in the fight (which will affect all unicorns). Consume corpses to restore mana. Always wait to only spend half a turn (proc'ing Regen more frequently).
Tactics is optional, I've chosen it to block druids on turn one. It can be replaced with summoning magic, luck or dark magic. Swift Mind can be dropped in favour of Intelligence, since there not much benefit of casting with hero before Channeling.
The main hurdle is ofc getting arma on a castle without bias for Destruction spells.

Spell stats (assuming 40 SP and Phoenix Cloak):
Empowered Armageddon - 2.7k damage per cast.
Regeneration - 460% health.
Resurrection - 1780 health with 2% reduction.
Haste - 38% bonus initiative.

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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 03, 2017 03:39 PM
Edited by dredknight at 15:40, 03 Sep 2017.

Strigvir, great Druid approach!
I did try them a few times in PvP but they have difficult early game so I ditched them. Going straight for T4 with channeling kind of change the whole perspective about them around. Even more - it makes them just as good pick as the other classes in Sylvan faction.
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strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted September 03, 2017 04:05 PM

Just noticed the link didn't show up (can't edit the post).
Skill layout - https://i.imgur.com/Hbzdckd.png

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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 03, 2017 04:11 PM
Edited by dredknight at 16:12, 03 Sep 2017.

Btw do you know that empowered spells are not affected by perks?
Taking your build as example - empowered armgeddon will not reduce armor or burn enemies for three turns. Could you verify my words as I have not played for a long time.
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Strigvir
Strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted September 03, 2017 04:20 PM

I didn't play either. This build is pure theory-crafting.

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stachnie
stachnie


Adventuring Hero
posted September 03, 2017 05:01 PM

magnomagus said:
@stachnie: how much knowledge did you have when you felt it was too strong?


Well... the data from my own map with lots of bonuses and strong monsters. Hero level 34, K 63 (or a few points more if she puts all +Knowledge arties). +26% Ini (reasonable), +8 Attack (reasonable), -6 Defence/hit (too strong, I would put e.g. 4), +9 HP (O.K.), +2 speed (reasonable), 39% Damage reduction from spells (not bad).

S.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted September 03, 2017 06:51 PM
Edited by Elvin at 18:57, 03 Sep 2017.

If we want an ideal build I'd go for one of the two:

Academy with protection mini arties, forge master, caster's luck, ignite and empowered spells or fortress without empowered. In the latter's case, your armageddon does less damage but your fire-immune creatures will be unaffected by the armour-breaking effect, not to mention your 'armoured' units. There is also the dwarven set that gives +40% magic proof I think? From there on you want initiative reduction artifacts.

I *think* dwarven luck is banned in 5.5? Because if not, you could swap caster's luck with dwarven luck and get boots of resistance(and/or armour of forgotten hero). But just boots of speed would give dwarven luck a 44% chance to resist which is ridiculous
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