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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 400 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 80 160 240 320 ... 396 397 398 399 400 · «PREV / NEXT»
tzening
tzening


Hired Hero
posted November 07, 2019 03:31 AM

I noticed that Stronghold heroes lose the Town Management menu when they have fully upgraded talismans. The menu only showed the four options. But I discovered a workaround/bug.

To access town management for heroes level 20+, you need to hire a  noob hero, open up the lvl 20+ hero's profile, cycle to the noob from there and select his town management. The town gate will work for the pro hero.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 07, 2019 07:00 AM

tzening said:
I noticed that Stronghold heroes lose the Town Management menu when they have fully upgraded talismans. The menu only showed the four options. But I discovered a workaround/bug.

To access town management for heroes level 20+, you need to hire a  noob hero, open up the lvl 20+ hero's profile, cycle to the noob from there and select his town management. The town gate will work for the pro hero.


That's interesting... Not only did I not notice the issue, it's interesting that this workaround actually works.


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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 07, 2019 11:58 AM
Edited by frogo at 12:00, 07 Nov 2019.

Quote:
Day 12 Dragon Utopia? Say what?


Day 12 would be quiete fast, but you should defnitley focus on it to get there within the next 1-3 days. But the limit here certainly isnt the utopia itself, but rather that you need to do some other stuff first.
If the utopia was closer, i d actually take it even sooner.
I just quickly tested it, and took the utopia week1 (day 7) with no problems at all (i even forgot to use my 3rd tent ammo ). If you want i can sent you the replay, but its really just a straight forward fight.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 07, 2019 01:46 PM

h55 actually has 4 utopia level buildings, I didn't modify them recently but i balanced them much differently from TOE. I didn't want the game to turn into a run for a single building, if your opponent hits an utopia, just hit 2 regular battle sites and with a little luck you may already be even. Also the reset counter is much shorter for your opponent then for yourself.

I thought i saw aruarian get unlucky with 104 zombies from an utopia, but ending up with 0 zombies since all his slots were full. not exactly a game changing event.
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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 07, 2019 02:42 PM

@Magno
Yeah, i was using utopia as in utopia-lvl building. (on the jebus map we were talking about for example is only 1 utopia and 2 of the druid-thingies. The day 7 utopia on jebus i did with an actual utopia though.

Also, can you tell me the reset counter for the person who didnt take the utopia?
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 07, 2019 03:03 PM

7 days, for yourself it is 2 months
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 07, 2019 09:28 PM

@Magno, he meant that he beated the Utopia on week 1, day 7 after the start of the game.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 07, 2019 09:35 PM

i know i answered the question about the reset counter
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 07, 2019 10:18 PM

Alright. It seems Utopias is a part of the game I have disregarded completely xD. I just assumed they are tough.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 07, 2019 11:59 PM

well for many people they are, but i think for kind of game played on deadly environment I think that map could use an update with the script setting invoked on map level to make the bank growth faster
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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted November 08, 2019 09:41 AM
Edited by Quantomas at 09:42, 08 Nov 2019.

dredknight said:
What we were thinking with Marko is make Balista shots finite amount that replenishes every day, but it is a raw idea for the moment.


You can make the advanced shots cost gold/resources. This works for keeping runes in check.

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 08, 2019 10:15 AM
Edited by dredknight at 10:30, 08 Nov 2019.

Keep bringing some fresh ideas Q! That is a good point!

P.S.
Alright I just got a new way of thinking about balance.

What is the difference between O.P. hero (might one combat + WM) and  weak hero at the following game settings:
A) high monster strength, low gold (Low starting value, low starting chests)
B) high monster strength, high gold( high starting value, high starting chests)
C) weak monster strength, any gold


Variant A) O.P. heroes get advantage of free skill damage (Balista, Combat stuff)

Variant B) even though Might heroes are good, other heroes can cope due to high resources they can use to buy army and push forward.

Variant C) O.P- ness is not taken into account because monster strength is manageable with default army or small investment even though not all heroes starting efficiency is equal. Basically all heroes have the chance to develop however they want.

Ok so considering A)_, B) and C) thoughts the O.P.-ness of Might heroes is that they get efficiency pretty much for free ( or very small investment like buying balista + a few XP chests).

To develop this idea further. Think of other skills and how they develop.

Might skills that affect army - it does not matter how strong they are, as their efficiency is tied to army size, which depends on how much resources the player can spend + town production capabilities.

Direct damage magic skills (Destruction, Summoning) - tied to mana pool, casting frequency and Spellpower. I will skip balance talk here as it depends on spells efficiency per SP which Magno has evaluated many times plus this can be discussed in separate talk if needed.

Magic skills that affect army (Dark, Light) - Much like Might hero passive stats they are dependent on army size and functionality, which again depends on resources and town production.


Now this is very general way of thinking but if you take it and starting going over each Skill tree, you may find skills that do not fit into it (Combat, Warmachines) so they are either O.P. or useless because they are not tied to player overall development, which can be tied to 1 single value - resources gained since beginning of the game.

Because if you think about it, the more successful a player during the game, the more resources he is able to collect (treasuries from succesful battles, getting mines faster, building resource silos earlier, getting more mines than the opponent).

This is the single factor that one can measure player success even if you dont know anything else about the player (hero, lvl, number of towns, number mines etc..).

Now I need to sleep on this and start applying this to a more specific scenarios.

Btw, Q, this type of thinking can be used by the AI to estimate AI strength and progression as well. What do you think?


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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 08, 2019 11:10 AM

Regarding the Ballista:
I actually dont think its overpowered.
Its a good early game tool but it doesnt scale that well into late game, which i think balances it out. Tent is mostly preferred over ballista, ballista is the obvious 2nd choice as Catapult is a trash perk .
Making shots finite or cost ressources will be difficult to balance for a variety of maps as creep density and amount of ressources on the map will have a strong effect on how viable the ballista will be.
Thats just my 2cents, i dont care that much about ballista in the end

@dred
Agreed with your thoughts, this is how you can distinguish early and late game skills easily.
I think the existance of early and late game skills is completly fine and also probably not avoidable.
Dark could use a reliable way to get decay maybe, as thats at least a somewhat decent early game tool.

One thing i d like to put out here is that i feel like we are coming to the picture that might heroes are OP in general, which i would definetly disagree with. I view might and magic as pretty even at this point, with the only thing tipping the balance slightly being the 0.4 atb stun, but we ll seemingly deal with that soon.
I think once that patch is out, the domination of might heroes in pvp games will end. At least i view them to be very equal in strength overall.


A completly diffrent topic:

I would like to see vitality go up from +2hp to +3hp.

You can compare vitality to battle frenzy and compare the relative gain in dmg/hp. Even with +3hp for vitality, the relative gain is mostly bigger for the +1dmg gain from frenzy, making +3hp for vitality already look like a more balanced option.
Also, both vitality and battle frenzy are especially strong in the early game, as in that stage the focus is more on lower tier creatures. During creeping, an increase in dmg output is mostly preferrable to a increase in hp, especially with a might hero and even more so when having tent. Magic tend to have low chances on defense and prefer diffrent skills in the early game anyway.

All this makes me rather confident battle frenzy is still a preferable perk over vitality (even if they were interchangable in position in the skillwheel) in most situations even with the +3 hp gain.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 08, 2019 11:41 AM

@dredknight:

You are really overthinking this now, there is no inherent OPness with might heroes there are just two perks that are clearly overpowered: stunning strike and flaming arrows so people will eventually steer towards them.

I'm willing to just nerf flaming arrows flat as you said was already possible, but it is not preferable for late game, so if you can get the level based patch done please do.

if any issues remain,further slight adjustments to mana costs and ballista damage are very simple, this problem is solved

Quote:
I would like to see vitality go up from +2hp to +3hp.


disagree, because this is piling up with 2 slots of rings of vitality, creating already kind of crazy amounts of HP on T1
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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 08, 2019 11:53 AM
Edited by frogo at 11:54, 08 Nov 2019.

Quote:
disagree, because this is piling up with 2 slots of rings of vitality, creating already kind of crazy amounts of HP on T1


First, you are looking at a very specific case here.
Noone is gonne pick vitality in the hope of getting 2 rings of vitality (and no other better ring to place there). Even then, this looks like a rather late-game scenario, in which the +2hp buff is really not at its peak anymore, considereing how low the relative gain is to higher tier units.
Also, given that battle frenzy can easily be compared to a +3hp gain, and vitality + 2 times the ring gives +6hp, this can be compared to balttle frenzy + the necklace that gives +1 dmg. (if 1dmg~3hp, then 2dmg~6hp). Only that this is a more realistically achievable combo.
On top of that, there is also Natures wrath, giving another 0.5 dmg.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 08, 2019 12:00 PM

I'm not disagreeing battle frenzy is stronger, but as a whole 6-slot investment I think defense is fine, therefore the perk is allowed to fit in a strategy that requires a certain artifact situation on the adventure map.

maybe after further calculations I agree with +3, but I fear this is going raise fortress T1 issue again
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Bulya
Bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 08, 2019 12:20 PM

@dred

I think you take one part of the game away when you think in these terms, which is the fun. Fun games for good players are challenging games, so having a clear road of leveling up towards a good hero with good end game skills will make the game boring. Those who want to play this way can pick the Hard or Noraml difficulty settings and play the game this way. But as you noticed the more hardcore people prefer at least Heroic difficulty settings or even impossible, as it makes the game way more challenging. So making skills that scale well with army good to pick early on due to an easier way of getting the army isn't the way to go as it will reduce the challenge and will make the game boring.
If you want to make more army available early on you will have to make the creep army stronger as well, which will again make skills like stun good as they open tactics that can make the hero take fights with relatively small armies vs large ones.
Nerfing Balista is important I think, and I personally like Quantomasses idea. It can be implemented in several ways. But going your way, you either make the WM skill irrelevant as it will have little use due to the big armies you always fight with, or you simply have to buff WM which will lead us to the same place we are now.

Hero attack is something that can be looked at as well perhaps, but I think the stun nerf will already be enough to nerf the combat perks. Combat as itself is actually a good skill later on (at least for some classes in certain match-ups) as a more defensive approach can also be taken in a game making retaliations way more important, especially with light magic and defense as skills (some classes prefer those, at least in certain match-ups). So its just about the combat perks that can be good early game or late game, depending which route do you take (stun is very good early on, and with high init creatures can be good later on as well, avenging can be good, especially vs shooters and the end game fight though if the armies are huge not as much, preperation is again scaled with army).

Regarding Quantomasses idea, it can be implemented in several ways, and perhaps a good way of nerfing the balista. I think Gold is the resource that the hero will have to pay for additional balista shoots, as all factions have a balista and classes that can get WM, and different factions rely on different resources, while runes for Fortress can just take additional ore and already be tough to cast as Fortress is quite ore reliant. Now, I see several ways of how it can be implemented:
- One way, if the hero has Balista (or tripple balista) each time the balista shoots it will cost some gold (tripple balista even more). This way Balista isn't an easy to use tool.
- The hero will have an amount of shoots the balista can shoot for free per battle (say 7, like the Master Hunter that shoots twice per turn), but for each additional shoot will cost some gold. (this way, relying on waiting for the army to come at you while having the balista as the main damage output becomes harder, as such fights take way longer then fights where the player just kills the creep in a few turns).
- The town management have an additional option of buying balista shoots, and if the balista runs out of them it no longer shoots during the battle.

Regarding the cost, I think it should scale up depending on the week or day. As early on there is little gold and heroes simply won't be able to afford spending gold on balista shoots, but later on, if the cost remains the same the balista shoots will be almost free.

I personally prefer the 2nd versions (limiting he balista to a some shoots during the fight, with each additional one costing money), but the third one is also appealing.
I don't think that the first one is good, as a hero that starts with the balista perk won't be able to use it that much, unlike heroes that simply buy a balista but don't have the perk (in other words, getting WM will be good, but getting the balista perk will be punishing if it is done early on). But I leave it there, as perhaps some think only about that way of implementing the idea.

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 08, 2019 12:37 PM
Edited by dredknight at 12:39, 08 Nov 2019.

The idea of the post was to present a new way of evaluating balance whenever needed or when "not sure" if something is balanced.

Sorry wrong wording. by OP I meant those two skills too. Might is completely fine.

@Bulya all ideas are fine but we should stick to not adding too much buerocracy to the player. Also if imeplemented any calculation of resource penalty should be straight forward to make with as less "buts" and "ifs" as possible.

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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 08, 2019 12:37 PM
Edited by frogo at 13:01, 08 Nov 2019.

Actually I never put any effort into getting vitality with fortress.
The relative gain towards their t1 is the lowest right after stalkers.
Battle frenzy on the other hand is a super strong perk with ingvar.

As whole 6-slot investment defense is decent. But the perks arent overwhelimg either.
Armor and forgemaster, while being decent perks when looking at them by themself, are difficult to fit into a well-rounded hero. If you are might against magic, you can surely pick these up, but this also means you go defense against a magic hero, which is far from optimal (the skill itself + any other perk in it. Vitality has little impact in a final fight (not saying it has no impact), but especially with +2 it doesnt help all to much.)
So in might v magic(destra), defense is not really optimal.
You d rather want things that increase initative/morale and dmg-output/luck of your units.
Armor + Forgmaster are difficult to compare with anything offense offers, but given that they dont seem to fit in many hero builds, i certainly wouldnt say they are super strong.
Tactics and flamingarrows aswell cant really be compared to anything defense offers, but i d say that the 2 perks are both very strong and fit into most might builds. Flaming arrows is a (maybe OP) creeping tool that still does good dmg in a final fight (unless its huge). Tactics is a very strong tool against any magic hero, probably a must have for most factions might.



Against a might hero, you are left with vitality, stand your ground, power of endurance, evasion and defense formation.

Comparing this to offense, we could say power of endurance and power of speed are somewhat equal, same with evasion and archery.
Same can maybe also be said about defensive/offensive formation (after my latest testing i felt like both have been nerfed since 3.01 to a degree i find them rather underwhelming, but thats maybe a diffrent discussion).

This basically leaves us with stand your ground vs retribution and battle frenzy vs vitality.
Unless stand your ground is a lot stronger than retribution (which i heavily doubt), vitaliy and frenzy should be equally strong.
I personally prefer the offense perks.

Besides that, i dont see why we are looking at defense as a whole here. Suppose defense had some OP perk, then i would rather balance that perk instead of weakning vitality to balance it out.
I can see that sometimes position in the skill can be a factor (sometimes you need to pick a rather underwhelimg perk to get to a stronger one), but this certainly isnt the case here, as they are both first row perks.




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Bulya
Bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 08, 2019 12:39 PM

@magno

If fortress t1 is the problem of buffing the vitality to +3 HP from +2 HP, then first I think its not really a problem, and eve if it is then the fortress t1 creatures, or at least the mountain guards can get a nerf of -1 HP to their HP.

The reason I state it is because Fortress T1 creatures have a lot of HP compared to T1 creatures. Actually, Fortress T1 creatures have a lot of HP compared to T2 creatures.
As an example, mountain guards have 14 HP, and if I play with Ingvar can get to 17 or 18 HP, while:
Inferno T1 creatures have 6-7 HP (depending on the upgrade), and the weekly growth does not compensate for that.
Same goes for Haven (a bit more weekly growth, but doesn't really compensate if we compare it to Fortress).
I skip on the Stronghold T1 creatures, because the T2 creatures, which Stronghold rely on quite a lot, and they are already weak due to being large creatures that are harder to block for, have only 9-10 HP (depending on the upgrade) and the growth is obviously smaller then that of the Fortress T1 as we talk about T2 creatures here. I think that if Vitality goes to +3 HP then perhaps Defense will start be appealing more to Chieftains who for now get it quite late as far as I know (combat, WM, leadership and Offense are preferred way more by them).
Even Sylvan T2 have the same HP as Fortres T1, and if I play with Ingvar then it will become less rather then equal, again not to speak of Sylvan T1. And The Wardens are forced into Defense as its their main skill.

In short, I think buffing vitality to +3 HP can be good, and in case it bring up Fortress T1 issues then simply nerfing Fortress T1 by -1 HP (or just -1 HP to mountain guards) can solve that issue.

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