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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 03, 2021 10:40 PM |
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The Cathedral would require a LOT of work though.
Gameplay
This is obviously a very dated version that leaked out.
The units are pretty boring - no new special abilities there. Just your regular stuff : double shot, blinds on hit, paralyses on hit.
The animations are... rough. Obviously not HOTA standard.
I can see why it got rejected.
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evildustructor
Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
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posted June 03, 2021 11:02 PM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
@evildustructor
Nobody said anything about full hp regeneration for hydras.
Regeneration does'nt work like that, it can restore up to 50 hp per round and that's it.
Please tell me why negative speed artifacts would be OP, if speed even with Slow can never go below 2 and they use the same slots as the +speed artifacts.
I agree with Sir Mullich being banned, what about Haste and Prayer specialists though, I am not sure about these...
Enough about creature banks already, they are becoming even more stale and boring every time they are mentioned. 
i mean no offense, but really, you gotta either stop trolling or start listening to people and getting the message people are consistently telling you throughout the 999 pages of this thread man 
the usage of slow is prevalent everywhere you look whenever a good player can get their hands on it because of how it enables much harder fights, both with efficient kiting and with speed advantage bonuses when casting etc, it eaaaaaaaaasily is one of the best spells in the game with how big of a usage it can have throughout a whoel game (excluding adventure control spells) no doubt
loynis won't have any (or, more like very rarely) impact in a game and haste specialists are good but still not game breaking, unless brissa in mirrors etc making you take certain 3x easier, but like cyra or terek arent op with the standard ruleset on almost all templates i know lol. theres a reason why gundula and grindan are extra good considering they start with slow (and why grindan is amazing at all pretty much)
i do not get why you complain in this thread about creature banks for a billion messages when they are an integral part of this game you can't give every advice from your perspective and then demand change, sorry its getting too old by now but really speed is pretty much everything in heroes 3 battles, swift neck and velo cape are also useful even in late game
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 03, 2021 11:12 PM |
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What about the negative morale artifacts then?, they prevent the opponent from getting positive morale, might even make some of them lose their turn, is that also OP?
HotA nerfed Slow a bit, but left Haste alone, Mass Haste still adds +5 (!!!) speed to all units, for only 5 mana. (3 if you have mages) Is THAT not OP?
Mass Slow can still give a fast unit -7, 8, 9 speed, is THAT not OP?
Apparently not, but some artifacts that does the same as already existing artifacts, only worse, IS OP, okay then...
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted June 04, 2021 07:28 AM |
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Welcome to the suggestion cancel culture
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 04, 2021 10:12 AM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
Mass Haste still adds +5 (!!!) speed to all units, for only 5 mana. (3 if you have mages) Is THAT not OP?
Not really.
Phoenix4ever said:
Apparently not, but some artifacts that does the same as already existing artifacts, only worse, IS OP, okay then...
An effect that works from the start of the combat, without the need to cast anything is better by default, so you have to be really careful not to implement OP stuff.
For instance, any wielder of -1 speed artifact in a typical mirror, where the fastest units on the field are likely angels, will act first 100% of the time. That's a huge advantage by itself.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 04, 2021 10:21 AM |
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Again tell me why +speed artifacts are okay, but -speed are not???
And yes Mass Haste is VERY OP, even if you wear all 3 speed artifacts, that will only give you +4, Mass Haste gives +5. (even more as a specialist)
Add to that, that Haste counters Slow and Slow counters Haste and you can actually double their power once more!
Besides TP and DD, Haste and Slow are probably the most OP spells in the game.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 04, 2021 11:03 AM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
Again tell me why +speed artifacts are okay, but -speed are not???
-speed allows kiting better when killing neutrals
Phoenix4ever said:
And yes Mass Haste is VERY OP
It isn't
Phoenix4ever said:
Besides TP and DD, Haste and Slow are probably the most OP spells in the game.
Slow yes (that's why it was nerfed), haste no
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 04, 2021 11:11 AM |
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Haste is pretty much the same spell as Slow just reversed, so if Mass Slow is OP, then Mass Haste is also OP.
Versus neutrals Slow is usually better than Haste, but fightning neutrals is usually not much of a problem. 1 devil could defeat millions of golems, if you had the patience to sit and click for days. 
You can use stuff such as Force Field and Quicksand to make it impossible for neutrals to ever reach you. A hero, AI or human, would try to counter that.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 04, 2021 11:14 AM |
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  it's Sal style.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 04, 2021 11:49 AM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
Haste is pretty much the same spell as Slow just reversed, so if Mass Slow is OP, then Mass Haste is also OP.
No
Phoenix4ever said:
Versus neutrals Slow is usually better than Haste, but fightning neutrals is usually not much of a problem. 1 devil could defeat millions of golems, if you had the patience to sit and click for days.
Mass slow enables to fight some neutrals in the first place (without losses), haste doesn't.
What you bring to the final fight is a direct result of snowballing and slow strongly enhances that.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 04, 2021 12:29 PM |
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@Phoenix
Damage has much better. Example of ring gives +5 damage to all troops. If H4 also belonged to HotA. Damage has worked well. But no -damage. So 1 devil then It takes fast time.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 04, 2021 12:33 PM |
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@Ghost
There are no damage artifacts in H3.
I suppose both + and - damage artifacts could be an option as well. That would be like having a light version of Bless/Curse.
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weilan
Known Hero
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posted June 05, 2021 03:25 PM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
@Ghost
There are no damage artifacts in H3.
I suppose both + and - damage artifacts could be an option as well. That would be like having a light version of Bless/Curse.
I think his mechanic translator is failing him. He probably means artifacts that affect attack.
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grell
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 05, 2021 03:56 PM |
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@Phoenix4ever
Both haste and slow can be countered with others spells. Cure, Dispell etc. Artefacts has a fixed efect and are activated in the begining of the battle, they are different from spells.
Artefacts with -speed would be extreme powerfulls. Think fight against an army with raged creatures or siege fights? wolud be hard.
Maybe a single major artefact with -1 effect could be plausible. IDK
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted June 07, 2021 10:44 PM |
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Doomforge said:
But it really isn't, did you check Lexiav's tier list? It's not a paradigm you cannot question, but gives you some idea on what is strong and what isn't. It was meant for JC and bank meta, though.
Town tier list
Outside bank meta it would be the same Necro/Conflux on top (Luna and Vamplords are just that good to snowball), I'd say Castle is a firm A tier but below those two.
I wouldn't call a single perspective "representative". Atm I'd place it in S due to the nerf of Logistics... At least in early game and for supporting heroes. Angels anyway are the best units ingame imho and getting them for free with the ability to upgrade them is damn strong late game.
As for Kroverk and Cathedral, so far I know these are off the table for some years by now. They were early concept aswell as "unique war machines" for every town. It's obsolete content and information by now.
To that "Slow" vs "Haste" discussion. Haste is like 3-4 times inferior to slow if you do the maths. I'd like an artifact that keeps your unit immune to slow Relic state ofc.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 07, 2021 11:27 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
To that "Slow" vs "Haste" discussion. Haste is like 3-4 times inferior to slow if you do the maths. I'd like an artifact that keeps your unit immune to slow Relic state ofc.
I don't know which units you are fightning for Slow to add -15 to -20 speed?! Apparently some that have 30-40 speed?!
VS slow units Slow will usually only give -1, 2 or 3 VS fast units it can give -7, 8 or 9, but in average they are pretty equal.
Haste even has the benefit that it can't be resisted, unlike Slow.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted June 08, 2021 01:05 AM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
I don't know which units you are fightning for Slow to add -15 to -20 speed?! Apparently some that have 30-40 speed?!
VS slow units Slow will usually only give -1, 2 or 3 VS fast units it can give -7, 8 or 9, but in average they are pretty equal.
Haste even has the benefit that it can't be resisted, unlike Slow.
Better get away from your black and white points of view for every single aspect in this game. You have to calc in not just speed/movement gain ofc. It's matter of unit hitpoint/sustainability, unit loss (empiric), usefulnuss of the magic school itself (earth compare to air), availability, cost, strenghts/weaknesses/chances/threads, compensition from artifacts (Cape of Velocity), spells and counterspells in PvP. You may use "Weighting methods" or "SWOT" for it and at best from multiple ppl with individual evaluations/rankings. NOT a personal point of view -> at least arithmetic mean is nescessary (at best from some experienced players) to get into an objective point of view and some REAL numbers beside some trival speed/movement gains or losses. It wasn't nerfed in the first place for arbitrariness but for balance issues...
And after getting and evaluation all the data you'll notice -> a much higher gain from slow than from haste. It's much more about units you lose/not lose while using slow and haste, as doomforge already stated. It may not make a difference for your singleplayer map vs AI that is played for like 3+ ingame years... since in that time you have a snowload of units/hitpoints to compensate for a dumb AI in the first place, no matter how much you buff the AI at all...
Phoenix4ever said:
Haste even has the benefit that it can't be resisted, unlike Slow.
Nope but it can be dispelled or countered by slow
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 08, 2021 02:24 AM |
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Paradoxon has a point that in comparative maths, reducing is greater than adding.
For example, if you have a creature with 10 speed and you add 5, it's only 50% more with 15.
Something that took three turns will now take two.
However, If you reduce that 5 speed, it would be halving the speed of the enemy.
Something that took three turens will now take six (!)
Personally what I'm against is the SoD change that bone terrain doesn't prevent the casting of lvl 1 spells, which turns battles into dumb slow vs haste repetition.
Either ban all magic in bone terrain, or at least reduce all magic expertise to basic level.
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Never changing = never improving
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 08, 2021 05:43 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 05:45, 08 Jun 2021.
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Haste and Slow are counter-spells (ie, they directly dispel each other) according to the wiki, so even if the effect of Haste is generally less impressive than that of Slow, it's pretty important.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 08, 2021 07:00 AM |
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If you are weaker troops, you use a Slow. If you are stronger troops, you use a Haste. Simple! I have seen some MP players don't use a Slow and Haste. True fine! But smaller error, they used a Hit & Run strategy by speed creatures, but Death Ripple and/or Armageddon, etc I hate smaller units.. So I always cast them.. So speed has worked, and no Slow.. also you can't say minimum 2 speed and damage. Why? You can't read a game. But it needs discussion. You did hard, said of peasants.. Yes teleport! Kill them by Death Ripple and Armaggedon.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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