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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 46 pages long: 1 10 ... 20 21 22 23 24 ... 30 40 46 · «PREV / NEXT»
Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted January 12, 2018 03:22 PM
Edited by Ericoz at 15:31, 12 Jan 2018.

To be honest Necropolis balance wise as a whole mas a mistake. HOMM3 creators weren't expecting to have people playing it on extra large and/or bigger maps amassing thousands of skeletons. Neither they were expecting people accumulating hundreds of vampires and cleaning the whole map with zero army causalities. I don't even think HOMM3 was meant to be played on such big maps at all. Spells like dimension door and town portal become broken and hero chaining obligatory.

Conflux is also a mess but for different reasons, not going to discuss it here.

HOTA's motto that they want to keep the game's spirit true to the original is not true at all. They have their own agenda and interests and that's fine by me. What I don't think is fine is making some hard changes and not allowing them to be optional. Yes, I know HOTA isn't WOG but what's wrong with optional changes? They allow the game to be more diverse and some people just want to play a single player game, or a small map with a friend on hotseat. Now they have to deal with changes aimed for multiplayer on large or bigger maps on their game.

Now if they are focusing to improve and/or balance the multiplayer experience they'll have to make some drastic changes. Not only town wise, but spell and secondary skills wise too. And also adapt the game better for larger maps. This is probably the hardest task and would change the game a lot, and make it totally different or impossible to be played on smaller maps.

Unless they want the old linear cookie cutter mass spell might hero stomp that happens on most mp games. MP has always been Heroes of Magic Might Heroes as you can see in the statistics from heroes-iii.com

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted January 12, 2018 03:42 PM
Edited by phe at 15:49, 12 Jan 2018.

Why don't give something like negative Learning to OP heroes to level slower than others?

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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted January 13, 2018 05:51 PM
Edited by Ericoz at 13:22, 14 Jan 2018.

Doesn't make sense, this way you are just forcing people to play bad heroes, and no one wants that. I say buff the magic heroes and secondary magic skills, make wisdom only available to magic heroes. This way might heroes would either need a scroll to cast higher levels spells or be only able to cast lower levels spells.

I just had another idea for eagle eye. I think I mentioned before but  not as specific as how i think now. It could give you the chance once per turn to attempt to learn one spell from your mage guild without needing to visit it. This is regardless of how far away you are from your or an allied town. Same percentages that it already has. It could also be used on spell shrines, enemy towns, heroes and neutral towns but in this case they need to be on your scouting radius.

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Yaku
Yaku

Tavern Dweller
posted January 13, 2018 07:54 PM


Installed HotA today, I'm playing with friends and we cant join the host when we want to load a game.
Starting a new game works fine.
We use GameRanger to play.

We tried the HD Mod and normal version, everything works fine.
Only HotA is affected.
The problem is the joining players can't choose if they want to Load a game or start a New Game.
When using GameRanger it always "knew" whether it was a new game or a loaded game

____________

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RedBlupi
RedBlupi

Tavern Dweller
posted January 16, 2018 08:10 PM

Hello there - huge fan of HotA here since beta release; I've recently downloaded 1.5.1, and I have two minor suggestions for the game:

- First of all, this was mentioned by other people before in the main thread, but I think removing the animated lakes wasn't a great idea (unless there's a reason behind it) - I would be very happy if they eventually came back, even as an optional feature toggled in the HotA_Settings.ini file.

- Secondly - you know how the creature banks all come in different "levels", which scale the difficulty and reward? Well, I think it would be really cool if it was possible to set their "level" of the bank in the Editor! It would be set to "random" by default for normal maps, and changing it would allow to create interesting combat scenarios for small, story-driven maps.

F.eg. something like this - "if you want to pass, go to the Cyclops cave and bring me all the gems and crystals you find there", says a wizard in a Quest Guard tower - and the cave is set to 20 Cyclops and 4 of each resource (to make sure the player can defeat them at that point, and that the Quest Guard takes ALL his crystals/gems afterwards).

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OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Known Hero
posted January 18, 2018 04:21 PM

RedBlupi said:


- You know how the creature banks all come in different "levels", which scale the difficulty and reward? Well, I think it would be really cool if it was possible to set their "level" of the bank in the Editor! It would be set to "random" by default for normal maps, and changing it would allow to create interesting combat scenarios for small, story-driven maps.


I am sure they have this planned. Imagine chinese people making some epic challenge maps once this is done( they are just so good at this stuff).

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 19, 2018 12:23 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 00:28, 19 Jan 2018.

Could'nt you please do something to make Eagle Eye more useful?
When HD Mod supported plug-ins, I had a very cool Eagle Eye plug-in that allowed a hero with Eagle Eye to look into the opponent's spellbook and learn ALL unknown combat spells from that hero, up to level 2, 3 or 4 and with 30, 35 or 40% chance of working. The hero would learn them as soon as he got his turn and could use them in that very combat.
You could actually learn quite a lot of spells this way.

Now with no plug-ins we are back to old horrible Eagle Eye.
A little story:
I played my map versus 5 AI's, choose Tower and random hero and I got the lovely Serena as main hero.
When I had won the map, I had learned exactly 0 spells from Eagle Eye, making her skill and speciality completely useless.

So I just think it would be cool if you would at least try to do something to make this skill a little better or else it might not even be there at all.

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Tordah
Tordah

Tavern Dweller
posted January 19, 2018 07:38 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Could'nt you please do something to make Eagle Eye more useful?
When HD Mod supported plug-ins, I had a very cool Eagle Eye plug-in that allowed a hero with Eagle Eye to look into the opponent's spellbook and learn ALL unknown combat spells from that hero, up to level 2, 3 or 4 and with 30, 35 or 40% chance of working. The hero would learn them as soon as he got his turn and could use them in that very combat.
You could actually learn quite a lot of spells this way.

Now with no plug-ins we are back to old horrible Eagle Eye.
A little story:
I played my map versus 5 AI's, choose Tower and random hero and I got the lovely Serena as main hero.
When I had won the map, I had learned exactly 0 spells from Eagle Eye, making her skill and speciality completely useless.

So I just think it would be cool if you would at least try to do something to make this skill a little better or else it might not even be there at all.


I agree the current Eagle Eye skill has very little (if none) use at all. It could use some rework.

Your plugin seems a little overpowered and unpredictable, could be too little, could be too much.

It's funny because i have no alternatives to propose. A skill to learn shrines spells from a distance perhaps? Or the capability to get additional spells from the guild at random maybe?
____________

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 19, 2018 11:40 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:45, 19 Jan 2018.

Actually it was'nt my plug-in and it was'nt OP, it was just perfect.
Usually I would learn between 12-25 spells when having Eagle Eye on a main hero.
Still I would never choose it over Wisdom, Earth Magic, Logistics, Offense or Armorer, but it made a horrible skill pretty damn acceptable.

Eagle Eye and Learning makes no sense in their default state, they are more a handicap than a help.
Learning is easy to make better though, but even at 100% Eagle Eye is still horrible.
Eagle Eye is just a VERY poor mans Scholar, like Mysticism is a VERY poor mans Intelligence.

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OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Known Hero
posted January 20, 2018 08:02 AM

phoenix4ever said:
Actually it was'nt my plug-in and it was'nt OP, it was just perfect.
Usually I would learn between 12-25 spells when having Eagle Eye on a main hero.
Still I would never choose it over Wisdom, Earth Magic, Logistics, Offense or Armorer, but it made a horrible skill pretty damn acceptable.

Eagle Eye and Learning makes no sense in their default state, they are more a handicap than a help.
Learning is easy to make better though, but even at 100% Eagle Eye is still horrible.
Eagle Eye is just a VERY poor mans Scholar, like Mysticism is a VERY poor mans Intelligence.

I don't know if this can be considered a solution but you can enable/disable any secondary skill/artifact for any template with RMG editor.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 20, 2018 08:23 AM

Yeah I know, but in the Eagle Eye case I would have to remove the skill, 8 heroes and 3 artifacts, that is quite a lot to take away from the game.
I'd rarther add to the game, than take away from it, if you know what I mean.
I have tried making other useless skills better, but there is just no way to save Eagle Eye.

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Known Hero
posted January 20, 2018 12:28 PM
Edited by gatecrasher at 12:31, 20 Jan 2018.

From the main thread:

thGryphn said:
Well I'm on 1.5.1 and the AI still suicide-walks into a firewall, and all 5 stacks of creatures in the same turn. If one of them just defended, there is no way to win the battle, and this map just relies on that stupidity...


So someone complained that the way Fire Wall is used vs AI is actually exploiting an AI bug. The AI acts as if the Fire Wall was invisible.

So how about either

- fixing this bug and have AI creatures avoid the Fire Wall?
 This would debunk Luna of course and would require changes to scenarios relying on the exploit.


- or actually making the Fire Wall invisible to all AI creatures as well as to human opponents?
This would be a serious buff. Maybe Fire Wall should become a lvl 3 spell instead of Fire Ball/Land Mine/Misfortune then.


@phoenix4ever I still consider removing Eagle Eye altogether a viable option. Or disabling it by default on random maps for instance.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Adventuring Hero
posted January 20, 2018 01:02 PM
Edited by Hourglass at 13:02, 20 Jan 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
Yeah I know, but in the Eagle Eye case I would have to remove the skill, 8 heroes and 3 artifacts, that is quite a lot to take away from the game.
I'd rarther add to the game, than take away from it, if you know what I mean.
I have tried making other useless skills better, but there is just no way to save Eagle Eye.


The issue that I have with Eagle Eye is that it sometimes appears as a choice when the hero gains a level. I don't really mind that Eagle Eye exist in this game, but more often than not, the skill is nearly/completely useless in the maps I play.

Solution:

Make it so that Basic Eagle is not offered you as choice when hero gains a level. (Eg you cannot learn Eagle Eye as new skill when leveling up your hero, Adv. and Expert versions would still be obtainable via leveling process.) Basic Eagle Eye would be still obtainable from witch huts, scholars etc.

Then, introduce a new - better - magic related skill, which is nothing like Eagle eye. This new skill would be replacement for EE, and could be obtained like any other skill.

Call me crazy, but I think that the original developers did try to avoid the unnecessary usage of Eagle Eye. Only 8 heroes in this game have EE as their starting skill, and only one of them (Ash) isn't an EE specialist. Also, each original town only has one hero with Eagle Eye.
It's like they saw way back when Homm2 was a thing that Eagle wasn't exactly a skill one would like to have, but it was decided to bring to Homm3 by giving it a slight buff while doing so. They wanted to ensure that each town would have access to eagle eye, but as it was seen as a niche, they would only make a small cast of heroes starting with it.

I would let those 8 heroes to have their Eagle Eyes. (Maybe Ash could receive another skill, or maybe she should be EE specialist as well, who knows)

The 3 Eagle Eye related artifacts don't really sense to me. Also, notice that when most of heroes having Eagle Eye would be specialists, there would be no real use for these artifacts. Thus, I would rather convert them to boost another skill (their look and name is quite generic, and I could easily see them boosting skills such as sorcery, intelligence, learning...) It would not be disaster to just delete their effects overall and use them as quest items. (yes, this game could use a handful of quest items as well)

By making these changes:

1) There would be no need of changing Eagle for something that is has never been. There would be no real need of buffing it either.

2) Map makers would still have access to Eagle Eye if they need it in their maps. Also, I personally see this is a minor thing, but as classic Eagle Eye would be around, that would mean better compatibility with some old maps.

3) Multiplayers could still use Eagle Eye tactics, as they could recruit EE heroes from tavern, or gain the skill from witch hut for example.

4) Singleplayers would be happy, as the skill would never appear a a choice when gaining a level, and now when Witch huts and scholars even ask you if you want learn skills or not, the players would never need to fear to lose any of their slots.

5) Magic heroes would receive a buff that they can really use, as Eagle would not appear, and there would be even that new skill around that they could use.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 20, 2018 02:39 PM

@Hourglass

Interesting thoughts, I have thought a lot of the same things.
Yes if only the 7 Eagle Eye specialists are left, there would be no need for the 3 artifacts and Ash could get another skill, probably Advanced Wisdom, would be most true to the hero. Then Eagle Eye could be disabled or removed from appearing at level up. The 7 specialists would still suck though.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted January 21, 2018 12:05 AM

The problem with eagle eye is... even back in HoMM1 the skill was still the same. Same counts for mysticism, leadership and luck... also some other abilities. They are copied 1:1 to HoMM3, even when the game got more complex and stats, skills, monsters act different

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Nik312
Nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 21, 2018 07:36 AM
Edited by Nik312 at 07:39, 21 Jan 2018.

Orrinisthebest said:
Ok after watching/playing several games ive come to one conclusion:
It becomes implosion war in the end.Please, either unban those artifacts or  consider my idea. Seriously, why ban red orb/recanter cloak and keep cape of silence? Doesn't feel a bit biased?..
Hopefully in the end it will satisfy all and good luck in your work!


You've probably haven't seen many high-level games. One of the actual concerns we had before this decision was implemented was that any final battle will turn into summon elemental+implosion mana contest. As far as we can tell - it didn't. Antimagic is the primary reason for that. Most final battles have actually become pretty complex tactically. Decisions of when to mass-slow, when to put antimagic on your powerstack, when to frenzy your powerstack so it can destroy opponent's antimagic powerstack. If there is one spell that seems to dominate gameplay a bit more than is healthy - it's probably armaggedon. Quite a few FB's ended in first couple of turns with armag being cast.

Regardless of all that - there will be new ways to protect yourself from magic introduced. Those were always part of the plan.

As for the decision to ban everything except black orb and cape of silence. Those artifacts, though similar on the surface, have nothing to do gameplay-wise with red orb and recanter's. The latter are the ways to ban all high-level magic and delete the whole level of gameplay from the game (since you are able to find one of those in almost every game and you are always inclined to put it on. Arguably so in case of recanters, but that is another thread of discussion). But CoS bans lowlevel magic which is completely different in its purpose. High-level magic is an instrument for mages to win games. If it is banned - mages can never be viable (which is arguably ok, but it is yet another discussion). Low-level magic is a common instrument of finding solutions to all problems. If it is banned - a whole different FB experience happens, which is not intrinsically unbalanced, but favors magic classes a bit more than warriors (the latter still remaining the better main heroes overall). As for black orb - it has nothing to do with all of that at all. Yes, it allows you to pierce all immunity, which makes magic immune creatures less OP and yes it completely undermines the resistance skill which is a total abomination anyway and no one should be counting on it in their right mind (the situation is obviously planned to be changed). No, it doesn't have remotely comparable effects on the game as all other artifacts discussed.

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Nik312
Nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 21, 2018 07:45 AM

Tordah said:
Hi all. I would like to propose an addition to the game.

Can we get a french lobby in the integrated online system in the game? I know the game is very popular here in Québec still and many of my friends still play. A french lobby would help bring more people online as many of us are unilingual still.

Many thanks for considering this on your next update and i wish you all a happy new year!


That is an understandable type of request, but the question with it is the size of the community. Russian and polish communities are known to be huge and active. English is universal. That is why those have separate rooms. How big is the French community? Introducing another room and finding moderators for it can be quite cumbersome, how many people out there would actually benefit from it?

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OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Known Hero
posted January 21, 2018 01:36 PM

Nik312 said:
Orrinisthebest said:
Ok after watching/playing several games ive come to one conclusion:
It becomes implosion war in the end.Please, either unban those artifacts or  consider my idea. Seriously, why ban red orb/recanter cloak and keep cape of silence? Doesn't feel a bit biased?..
Hopefully in the end it will satisfy all and good luck in your work!


You've probably haven't seen many high-level games. One of the actual concerns we had before this decision was implemented was that any final battle will turn into summon elemental+implosion mana contest. As far as we can tell - it didn't. Antimagic is the primary reason for that. Most final battles have actually become pretty complex tactically. Decisions of when to mass-slow, when to put antimagic on your powerstack, when to frenzy your powerstack so it can destroy opponent's antimagic powerstack. If there is one spell that seems to dominate gameplay a bit more than is healthy - it's probably armaggedon. Quite a few FB's ended in first couple of turns with armag being cast.

Regardless of all that - there will be new ways to protect yourself from magic introduced. Those were always part of the plan.

As for the decision to ban everything except black orb and cape of silence. Those artifacts, though similar on the surface, have nothing to do gameplay-wise with red orb and recanter's. The latter are the ways to ban all high-level magic and delete the whole level of gameplay from the game (since you are able to find one of those in almost every game and you are always inclined to put it on. Arguably so in case of recanters, but that is another thread of discussion). But CoS bans lowlevel magic which is completely different in its purpose. High-level magic is an instrument for mages to win games. If it is banned - mages can never be viable (which is arguably ok, but it is yet another discussion). Low-level magic is a common instrument of finding solutions to all problems. If it is banned - a whole different FB experience happens, which is not intrinsically unbalanced, but favors magic classes a bit more than warriors (the latter still remaining the better main heroes overall). As for black orb - it has nothing to do with all of that at all. Yes, it allows you to pierce all immunity, which makes magic immune creatures less OP and yes it completely undermines the resistance skill which is a total abomination anyway and no one should be counting on it in their right mind (the situation is obviously planned to be changed). No, it doesn't have remotely comparable effects on the game as all other artifacts discussed.

After this comment of yours i really don't know what is better,i hope you guys will figure it out. But i have some things to say about black orb and CoS:
Orbit of Vulnerability: As you mentioned it makes resistance skill completely useless but there is one strange thing(a bug?): If my opp has this art equipped and my army consists of units immune to armageddon they still will take no damage from that spell and this makes phoenixes even more useful( just sacrifice a magic hero with 1 phoenix before FB). And good to hear that you have smth in mind )
Cape of Silence: Once you guys manage to buff skills like Sorcery,Mysticism etc. there will be no need to keep this art enabled. Right now there is only one artifact in the game that really "dominates" and it is CoS. And i believe one of the major goals of HotA crew is to eliminate any kind of domination because deeply what makes the game great is that against every possible strategy there is a counter one.

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ginden
ginden


Hired Hero
posted January 21, 2018 03:37 PM

Quote:
Then, introduce a new - better - magic related skill, which is nothing like Eagle eye. This new skill would be replacement for EE, and could be obtained like any other skill.


Due to how game handle skills internally (it's 28-byte length char array in inside of struct), adding new spells or new secondary skills or new primary skills is virtually impossible and unlikely to happen in any mod.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Adventuring Hero
posted January 21, 2018 10:24 PM
Edited by Hourglass at 22:26, 21 Jan 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
@Hourglass

Interesting thoughts, I have thought a lot of the same things.
Yes if only the 7 Eagle Eye specialists are left, there would be no need for the 3 artifacts and Ash could get another skill, probably Advanced Wisdom, would be most true to the hero. Then Eagle Eye could be disabled or removed from appearing at level up. The 7 specialists would still suck though.


The 7 specialists would sure be underdogs, but overall since pretty much every town has EE user, it kinda affects every town (exept Conflux and Cove) equally.

Someone suggested that it would be a good idea to tie EE to the spell research. If it would not be enough to limit EE's appearance the way I suggested, Eagle Eye could possibly also give +1 spell choice when researching spells. Or possibly cutting the cost by 50% or something like that.


P4R4D0X0N said:
The problem with eagle eye is... even back in HoMM1 the skill was still the same. Same counts for mysticism, leadership and luck... also some other abilities. They are copied 1:1 to HoMM3, even when the game got more complex and stats, skills, monsters act different


I coulnd't find anything about secondary skills in Homm1? I have no personal experience from that game, are you sure skills existed in the first game as well?

Anyway, it seems that Eagle Eye was the only skill that received a major buff from Homm2 to Homm3. (Basic Estates was changed to give 125 gold instead of 100, other skills sticked as they are now, or were tuned down.) EE's learning rate went from 20/30/40 to 40/50/60. Even mysticism stayed the same as we know it now.
As Homm3 only introduced new skills, and no skill were dropped in the process of making Homm3, it's remarkable IMO that it received very noticeable buff. I strongly belive that EE was even then seen as a niche.

ginden said:


Due to how game handle skills internally (it's 28-byte length char array in inside of struct), adding new spells or new secondary skills or new primary skills is virtually impossible and unlikely to happen in any mod.



That's unfortunate to hear. However, I'm still kinda hopeful, since Hota team not only were able to create fully complete, 100% stable new town with creatures, heroes etc, the last patch even adds new terrain to the game (pretty remarkable), and the spell research - a completely new feature. I know very little about this game's code, but one can always dream, right?

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