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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Unoffical Community Patch (UCP)
Thread: Unoffical Community Patch (UCP) This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
Quaranyr
Quaranyr


Hired Hero
posted September 30, 2018 05:10 AM
Edited by Quaranyr at 05:11, 30 Sep 2018.

NikLan said:
Hm, I think we have some misunderstanding... ...And if we compare complete creatures, I showed that Banshees are rather relatively weak than strong.

I think that too.
Are we playing different games? A banshee without incorporeal is no worse than Fury (low base stats DO matter) or Shade (whose abilities are really good only in right circumstances and without them it really sucks) and clearly better than Oak Dryad. If we compare equal numbers, that's it. Only, in real game banshee will be much more numerous.
NikLan said:
Second, my main idea is that stack of necromancied Poltergeists in H5 (with 50% incorporeal) was stronger than stack of Banshees in H7 (with 20% incorporeal). And it wasn't imbalanced.

This comparison is incorrect - in H5 creating a horde of ghosts require specific strategy and means losing other units. In H7 you don't need to sacrifice anything at all, you are just getting the horde and that's it. "Ordinary" H5 Poltergeist stack IS weaker than "ordinary" H7 banshee stack.
NikLan said:

...But we need to nerf not creatures, but Necromancy...


I'm very much against this. Necropolis gameplay motto always (except H6) was "Quantity over quality" and I would prefer it to stay that way.
NikLan said:

I don't know and I don't care. My conversation is only about Banshees, nothing more.

So you are just a big banshee fan who wants to see the favourite unit buffed and don't really care about everything else?

And you didn't answered - how successful H5 ghost-spam strategy was in MP? At the very least it should have problems with destructive magic heroes.

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vildark
vildark


Hired Hero
posted September 30, 2018 01:33 PM
Edited by vildark at 18:43, 30 Sep 2018.

Hello,
I am working on french translation, and I found this weird:

French version:
[Necropolis.A_NamtaruCaller_SupportAbility H7WarfareAbility]
mTooltip="Dissipe tous les effets négatifs de Lumière dont souffre l'allié. Chaque créature du peloton inflige %buff.buff.d.min dommages des Ténèbres %buff.buff.d.icon supplémentaires à chaque coup. Dure %buff.buff.durini tours."

UCP 1.1 Version:
[Necropolis.A_NamtaruCaller_SupportAbility H7WarfareAbility]
mTooltip="Dispels all negative Light effects from target friendly creature. Every single creature in the stack deals additional %buff.buff.d.icon Dark damage with each hit. Lasts for %buff.buff.durini turns."

Is it intended to lose the amount of damages given?

- The capacity A_No_Meele_Penalty has no nice name, just No meele penalty. It is useful but not like others capacities...

- Scattershot tooltip text is weirdly displayed:



Notice the return to next line between the minus - and the value 50?

FR:
[A_ScatterShot H7CreatureAbility]
mName="Tir de Grenaille"
mTooltip="Cette créature attaque toutes les unités dans une zone cible de 3x3 et inflige %buff.buff.stat1 dommages."

EN:
[A_ScatterShot H7CreatureAbility]
mName="Scatter Shot"
mTooltip="The creature attacks all units in target 3x3 area dealing %buff.buff.stat1 damage."

- My caravan button is in lower right corner!
mHints[11]="Using a button in a lower left corner, you can order a caravan and reinforce your heroes outside towns with additional troops."

Anyway, French translation is done. Time to test it!

- A_StrikeAndReturn won't work: when I click on the button, nothing happened. Then I click on an enemy creature, and my creature attacks normally. IA can use it.

- Is %icon_light intended in the following:
[A_Heal H7HeroAbility]
mTooltipMagicGuildRankLine="%d1.min Health %icon_light"

- Tooltip doesn't take siren song into account (only the tooltip is invalid, the immunity is valid):

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NikLan
NikLan

Tavern Dweller
posted September 30, 2018 07:25 PM
Edited by NikLan at 19:42, 30 Sep 2018.

Quaranyr said:

Are we playing different games? A banshee without incorporeal ...


Lol. Didn't read further because I answered to this before. Seems like you haven't read my post. I quote it again:
NikLan said:

First of the all, the "Stat-wise" comparison is pointless ...


That's all I think about it.
Quaranyr said:

This comparison is incorrect - in H5 creating a horde of ghosts require specific strategy and means losing other units. In H7 you don't need to sacrifice anything at all, you are just getting the horde and that's it.


Seems like you just don't understand the meaning of Necromancy in H5. You just can choose unit you need to resurrect (and in H7 you can't). It does not mean loose other units, no sacrifice at all. Just more freedom - choosing possibility, nothing more.
So, at this point of view in both games you are just getting the horde and that's it. No difference, man.
Quaranyr said:

"Ordinary" H5 Poltergeist stack IS weaker than "ordinary" H7 banshee stack.


Ok, lets say from your point. Yes, it is. But, if you didn't raised Poltergeists, it means you raised someone else. So what? Your army get stronger anyway. How much stronger? We don't know if we raised not Poltergeists. So, meaning this, I proposed to imagine that we only rise Poltergeists to have more reliable comparison. So, this way we won't have "Ordinary" H5 Poltergeist stack. That's my logic.

I understand the thing that you want to say to me. But, this is not about just Banshees stack, this is about all Necro army srtength. Its different discussion. If you want it, ok, lets do, but it will be different conversation. And in this discussion only about one Banshees stack I was right.
Quaranyr said:

NikLan said:

...But we need to nerf not creatures, but Necromancy...


I'm very much against this. Necropolis gameplay motto always (except H6) was "Quantity over quality" and I would prefer it to stay that way.


That's it! You should start discuss from this and it would have ended days ago I understand this, this is just different point of view. And I can't say that I'm against it. I can say: ok, I agree. But we should remove the "Incorporeal" ability then (because f.e., 5-10% evasion is the same as nothing). But if we remove new ability from Necropolis, we should remove some of it from other factions too. It's obviously, didn't? Say it to Antalyan, let's see what he answer to you .
Quaranyr said:

So you are just a big banshee fan who wants to see the favourite unit buffed and don't really care about everything else?


No, I'm not really a fan of this unit. Moreover, when Antalyan announced new abilities, I said to him that this is probably not a good idea. Because in vanilla H7 we already have not really good balance and introduction of new abilities rather do worse. But he answered that he just want do it and that's all. I said: ok, it's your mod man, good luck. We should thank Antalyan for his great work with this mod, but, as you see, I was completely right - our discussion is a proof . And what about it? Nothing. We are just users, and he's creator. I just want that you understand me: Necro is my favorite faction and I don't want it become s-h-i-t. But I feel, if we remove Incorporeal and don't remove/nerf some other abilities from other factions, Necro will become s-h-i-t. Not at once, but step by step. And I see that things go to this. Of course, I always can oped Editor (an annoying crashing s-h-i-t) and do what I want, but... it's not the way I wanted.
Quaranyr said:

And you didn't answered - how successful H5 ghost-spam strategy was in MP? At the very least it should have problems with destructive magic heroes.


Dunno what is "MP" But mass Poltergeists was very good. And problems with magic heroes have all Necro strats (even if you rise skeletons). Otherwise Necro will be imba I think. Actually I raised Vampires (when I can) & Poltergeists (mostly) because these creatures has maximum value of Unit strength per dark energy unit (I remebmer I calculated it lol that was great times). That was pretty decent strat: I took Lucretia and if you fight against the fighter - he's in s-h-i-t. If you against mage - all may be, depends of opponent, faction and his spellbook.
P.S. This forum is pretty tricky I see )) Try to post s-h-i-t without dashes and you will know what I mean
P.P.S. And yeah, about translation. In my english version Lucretia has name "mName". And not only she.

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted September 30, 2018 07:39 PM

So much stuff to react to, let's go ahead (I hope you forgive me, I'm too lazy to put dozens of quotes here )

@Moritzbradtke
- Barbarian Rage works only when the creature with Barbarian Rage ability attack the marked creature (as the desc says)

- I do not want to have it as the negative effect of the attack, it is supposed to be a punishment for everyone who dares to attack that beautiful creature. I'll take a look at its animation.

- Siren Song: this ability is quite troublesome, I'm glad it works (but if for example a creature attacks the shadow image, you won't see that effect anyway in the tooltip; you always have to check the buffs)

- Shadow Armour: the creature should have the buff, please, check again

@Quaranyr
- Rhinoceros: I imagine it as if the creature got a special shield bonus thanks to the skin cells becoming more compact during the run.

Moving it to a different creature would mean losing that cute icon
Anyway, Dancers are elite, so they're not as much vulnerable as in H5.

- Hunters: Actually, Hunters are my favourite creature and they seem useful for me (unlike Dryads). However, adding them an additional effect like Warding Arrows is not against my mind

- GMs: It's possible to do it but it's not as easy as it looks, it would affect all the scripted heroes who have predefined skills in campaigns. As for now, random skilling works good enough from my point of view, so it's not on my priority list.

@NikLan

- Eternal Servitude: only the tooltip is a bit misleading, I looked into it but it would make too many problems to change it because of overlapping actions. If you have any idea how to improve the tooltip, I'm listening.

- I'm reading your discussion about ghosts

- I don't want to change the towntrees right now, it would be a random change based on too little experience.

Vildark

- Namtaru: The values are gone for purpose, the game was unable to display them correctly. The player does not need to know the exact value I think.

- No Melee Penalty is more likely a GUI buff, informing the player about the special creature properties not displayed among the stats.

- Scatter Shot: You can delete that value and type -50 by hand. (This ability will be later improved/changed anyway.)

- You're right with the caravans, it will be fixed

- Siren Song: Buffs are often not taken into account, see Shadow Image spell or Ink Spray, not much I could do with that.

- Heal: you can choose, it's unimportant since nobody displays that tooltip anyway






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NikLan
NikLan

Tavern Dweller
posted September 30, 2018 07:48 PM

Antalyan said:

- Eternal Servitude: only the tooltip is a bit misleading, I looked into it but it would make too many problems to change it because of overlapping actions. If you have any idea how to improve the tooltip, I'm listening.


Hmm. But my skeletons really didn't raised by this ability at all. In fight nor after it. What Eternal Servitude should do by your mind then?

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Quaranyr
Quaranyr


Hired Hero
posted October 01, 2018 06:38 AM
Edited by Quaranyr at 06:49, 01 Oct 2018.

to NikLan
NikLan said:

Lol. Didn't read further because I answered to this before. Seems like you haven't read my post. I quote it again:
NikLan said:

First of the all, the "Stat-wise" comparison is pointless ...


That's all I think about it.

Youd misread it. It's not just stats anymore. I compared banshees without incorporeal vs dryads, furies etc WITH ALL THEIR ABILITIES. And banshee is either equal of better.
Unless, again, we play different games. I mean, I would choose, say 100 banshees over 125 Oak Dryads without second thought.
NikLan said:

Seems like you just don't understand the meaning of Necromancy in H5. You just can choose unit you need to resurrect (and in H7 you can't). It does not mean loose other units, no sacrifice at all. Just more freedom - choosing possibility, nothing more.
So, at this point of view in both games you are just getting the horde and that's it. No difference, man.

Seems like you, again, read not what I'm wrote. Than again, my English is far from perfect...
I'll try to say in another way. H5 necromancy is variable (you can get different stuff from different enemies and may not get what you want) and limited (by dark energy per week). Which means that even "I just take stuff at random until I'm out of energy lol" should be strong enough. And purposefully grown stack should quite powerful.  
In H7 necromancy is a simple "free units after combat". Regardless of what you kill, regardless of how many battles you've already won on this week. Endless. "Free". Units. They MUST be weaker. Despite that, banshee actually is one of the strongest core units in the game. And upg. sceletons, while slooow, has unexpectedly high damage.
NikLan said:

That's it! You should start discuss from this and it would have ended days ago I understand this, this is just different point of view. And I can't say that I'm against it. I can say: ok, I agree. But we should remove the "Incorporeal" ability then (because f.e., 5-10% evasion is the same as nothing). But if we remove new ability from Necropolis, we should remove some of it from other factions too. It's obviously, didn't? Say it to Antalyan, let's see what he answer to you .

We are talking abouth Necropolis. Last time I checked it was THE "amassing 100500 units" faction. Well, there are also vampires. And now spider-memes too, but let's not go there.
If anything, it's you who should have said about your unusual point of view earlier.
Antalyan already said that the new abilities was made without really thinking about balance. Which you could guess by youself, considering he gave almost nothing to Sylvan - faction that a lot of people consider weakest.
And no, removing abilities from other factions is not "obvious".
Simply because some of the units are underpowered and could use a buff (even through me and Antalyan have different opinion on exact details, and it's his opinion that's most important in the end) but banshee is definitely not one of them.
You know, all this discussion is kinda funny because I was one of that people who whined about lack of Incorporeal at the Shadow Counsil site back there. And I like the ability itself. I would be completely ok with it if banshee would get some nerf in return.
NikLan said:
I just want that you understand me: Necro is my favorite faction and I don't want it become s-h-i-t. But I feel, if we remove Incorporeal and don't remove/nerf some other abilities from other factions, Necro will become s-h-i-t. Not at once, but step by step. And I see that things go to this. Of course, I always can oped Editor (an annoying crashing s-h-i-t) and do what I want, but... it's not the way I wanted.

Necropolis is one my favourites as well (surprise!). Yet, I'm pretty sure that it would require a lot of steps to make necro weak. Hell, a good number of people (but not me) still consider it to be OP and believe in should be nerfed! I could understand worries of a Sylvan or Dungeon fan but for necro? No way.
But alright, it seems our opinions on current balance is quite different so let's end on that.
NikLan said:

Dunno what is "MP" But mass Poltergeists was very good.

MP=Multiplayer. SP=Singleplayer.
A pity it's too late to try it by myself. For some reason I've never saw anyone using that strategy despite necro being one of the most popular factions. Was that strategy not that popular, or I've got out of loop somehow?

to Antalyan
I don't mean that dancers are weak, more like whenever you've thought about it when you added new abilities for vampires/marksmen/defenders etc. for fun/interest. But I guess I've got the answer.
Hunters is better than dryads for sure lol, I guess it's just feels strange after H3,H5 or pretty much every game that have Wood Elves to see their archers being so ...uninspiring.

OK, I should stop righting such giant posts

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Vildark
Vildark


Hired Hero
posted October 01, 2018 12:54 PM

Ok Thank you for your answers Antalyan.
And what about Strike and Return? Does it ever work for you?
When I click on its icon, nothing happen.
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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted October 01, 2018 02:36 PM

@NikLan
The skeletons should revive at the end of their turn if they attacked.

@Vildark
Strike & Return works, the only change is that you have to activate it and then attack the enemy as usually, the creature should return afterwards.


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vildark
vildark


Hired Hero
posted October 02, 2018 07:26 PM

Ok I retried and strike and returns works, my bad.
Maybe I clicked two times or I was on melee.
thank you

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NikLan
NikLan

Tavern Dweller
posted October 02, 2018 08:30 PM
Edited by NikLan at 20:40, 02 Oct 2018.

@Quaranyr
The conclusion for me is that if Necro in UCP 1.0 was still overpowered, we should remove/huge nerf "Incorporeal". But if not - we shouldn't. Just my opinion.
Quaranyr said:

For some reason I've never saw anyone using that strategy despite necro being one of the most popular factions. Was that strategy not that popular, or I've got out of loop somehow?


I don't remember yet ) Maybe it's because I played against Necro in very rare cases (my heart said "No" to this ).

@Antalyan
Antalyan said:

The skeletons should revive at the end of their turn if they attacked.


This was not worked for me. But I remember it worked earlier (in UCP 1.0 or vanilla - don't remember). Seems like you've broken something in 1.1.
Probably I found another bug: if Banshees "Incorporeal" procs, they retaliate to attacker even when he has "No retaliation".

@Quaranyr, @Antalyan
As a compromise decision of "Incorporeal" question  we may consider remove "Incorporeal" and add "Plague Strike" passive ability to Liches. It cast "Agony" spell (Expert lvl) on the target & all living adjacent enemy creatures. Spellpower of this cast depends of Liches number (f.e., 0.5 dark magic power per 1 Lich). This is pretty decent ability, but shouldn't be really strong because of that in the big fight a huge part of Liches stack usually dies before their first shot.
Moreover, I think that "Withering Venom" & "Poisoned Blades" abilities are imbalanced - too much damage (ignoring armor). I propose set its duration to 2 turns instead 3.

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted October 03, 2018 02:58 PM

@NikLan
Ok I will check then.

I will not remove Incorporeal since it wouldn't help in any way to make Ghosts more interesting. On the contrary, Lichs are already unique enough imo.
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Quaranyr
Quaranyr


Hired Hero
posted October 03, 2018 07:01 PM

Than what about removing vigilance but keeping incorporeal?

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NikLan
NikLan

Tavern Dweller
posted October 03, 2018 08:35 PM
Edited by NikLan at 20:42, 03 Oct 2018.

@Antalyan
Antalyan said:

I will not remove Incorporeal ...


I knew that
@Quaranyr
Quaranyr said:

Than what about removing vigilance but keeping incorporeal?


Good idea. But! Vigilance gives about 35% to durability of this unit (not 50% because of not all strikes are full flanking melee). Incorporeal gives 20%. I agree if we buff Incorporeal to 30% (5% less because of psychologically discomfort when striking unit with Incorporeal).
But you must know that it will be nerf of Necropolis anyway. Just because the other factions get more good new abilities (Incorporeal in this case will be a switch, not add).

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NikLan
NikLan

Tavern Dweller
posted October 05, 2018 10:16 PM

@Antalyan
Found another bugs:
1. Tower Of Necromancy's buff seems to be newly added every day to every hero (placed on the hero's head on map & in hero properties). Previous buffs are not removing => after a week after build Tower you will have about 7 buffs of it displayed.
2. Units not retaliate to Frenzy unit attack. (maybe this is an undocumented feature, dunno).

And one more note. Played more for Necro yesterday. And now I think that Necro is possibly still overpowered. 1K skeletons & 500 banshees... this is pretty hard to fight against after 7 weeks of game.
Now I think that it is impossible to balance Necromancy in this design. Actually, Necromancy never was balanced in previous parts of HOMM. Only the H6 Necromancy  was good looked & balanced at any stage of game. Do you can rework Necromancy to H6 design? For example, to give to all Necro heroes ability "Resurrect" (for 0 mana & no hero turn waste) and 3 levels of resurrection, all like in H6. It will be great if you'll can.

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted October 07, 2018 11:35 PM

H6 necromancy might have been more balanced but much more boring, no way we'd go this way in H7

Tower of Necromancy will be investigated, Frenzy might be intended.
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MoritzBradtke
MoritzBradtke


Known Hero
posted October 10, 2018 03:04 PM
Edited by MoritzBradtke at 05:10, 11 Oct 2018.

are u sure barbarian rage is working? i have Problems to see forced critical hits
and did u Change something About oppertunity retalation from Guardian? i get rarely proccs at the Moment, seems the skill is broken

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Quaranyr
Quaranyr


Hired Hero
posted October 11, 2018 06:25 PM

I've just noticed (well, yesterday...) that it's possible to start a scirmish map with any hero in the game. Includung campaign ones with 10 attack and 20 spirit on the first level.

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted October 12, 2018 03:32 PM

MoritzBradtke said:
are u sure barbarian rage is working? i have Problems to see forced critical hits
and did u Change something About oppertunity retalation from Guardian? i get rarely proccs at the Moment, seems the skill is broken


Both of them worked during the tests but you can never be sure, I would need to hear a concrete example when it doesn't work, ideally with a screen as well.

Quaranyr said:
I've just noticed (well, yesterday...) that it's possible to start a scirmish map with any hero in the game. Includung campaign ones with 10 attack and 20 spirit on the first level.

These heroes should have been modified to start like any other ones on level 1, with which hero(es) did the problem occur?



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Quaranyr
Quaranyr


Hired Hero
posted October 12, 2018 06:30 PM
Edited by Quaranyr at 19:05, 12 Oct 2018.

Antalyan said:

These heroes should have been modified to start like any other ones on level 1, with which hero(es) did the problem occur?


Description of the patch says that every faction should have 2 heroes of each class but I could start with almost(?) every hero that exists (like Agrael or blackguard officers). As a result, some factions have over 20 heroes and some about 15. I don't think it's fair.
It also make some heroes pointless, for example, there is no reason to use Thomas when he is just a weaker version of Ivan.
And, well, I just prefer that some heroes are reserved for campaigns.
Captain Erkan and Iona start with crazy stats.
There are 2 Agbeths in the heropedia - one with normal stats, one with crazy ones.
In general, most of modified heroes are shown with their original stats in heropedia.

Edit: Agbeth starts without any spells despite being magic hero. Do other modified magic heroes have this problem too?
Edit2: Yep. I checked a few and they all lack their starting spells.


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MoritzBradtke
MoritzBradtke


Known Hero
posted October 13, 2018 03:54 PM
Edited by MoritzBradtke at 15:55, 13 Oct 2018.

MoritzBradtke said:
are u sure barbarian rage is working? i have Problems to see forced critical hits
and did u Change something About oppertunity retalation from Guardian? i get rarely proccs at the Moment, seems the skill is broken

Antalyan said:

Both of them worked during the tests but you can never be sure, I would need to hear a concrete example when it doesn't work, ideally with a screen as well.



well let alone barbarian rage, Maybe u noticed but i have started to work on my mod again as well, not sure why the skill isnt working so well for me, if u say it is working it is fine, i use the ability in my mod but ive altered it a bit, it works more like H6 one i think, check it out if u are interested (:


About oppertunity relalation, it just rarely procs again, i would be grateful if u could take a look at it again, if it works in a usual Combat for u most of the time, i guess it is fine too but it should work for me as well, however when i tested it last time it worked fine so it is strange it isnt now but Maybe Needs more testing and something else is bugging it but i doubt it

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