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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: "Both Sides Against the Middle"
Thread: "Both Sides Against the Middle" This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
verriker
verriker


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posted August 29, 2018 09:31 PM

Salamandre said:
whats so hard, there are four subjects polarizing political groups: immigration, free speech, welfare and cultural identity. The deep state creates as virtual entity when one opinion about those things is majorly exposed in the medias following their bias. Create a balance, the deep state is gone.


well I did not think that there was a very unified opinion on much of that in the United States media or elite though, after all isn't that why they have two political parties killing each other about various dichotomies on those things lol
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted August 29, 2018 10:51 PM
Edited by markkur at 22:52, 29 Aug 2018.

verriker said:
I think Markkur is saying in so many words, the elite in the United States are feeding him a certain narrative which he does not agree with, which is fair enough.

Close but no cigar.

It is not about me agreeing or disagreeing, it is about being told the truth in the first place.

i.e. I have been watching every meeting President Trump has had, and on two occasions, I saw the MediaSpinAttack-barrage myself.

1. He did not call Mexicans or illegals Animals, the discussion where the MSM pulled that word was when the meeting was focused on MS-13.

2. When the caravan coming from Central America he did not even use the word...BROWN, to describe the people involved. BROWN was added and everywhere in the news on all outlets the very next day.

Does this sound like REAL news?


Anyway, I've responded to the HCM and I will hang out here for you and any others who care about the bigger global picture, for a while.
Keep in mind, there is no reason why you or I should need to do this but it is what it is.


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Minion
Minion


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posted August 29, 2018 11:09 PM
Edited by Minion at 23:24, 29 Aug 2018.

So after watching ALL Trump meetings you found two times media was wrong? What conspiracy is that exactly. How about Donald Trump lying every day to the American people? That is not a problem to you? It should

Anyways this topic can get sidetracked easily because everyone has their own opinion on "deep state". Maybe start by defining what that is, and then continue. My 2 cents

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verriker
verriker


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posted August 29, 2018 11:36 PM

markkur said:
1. He did not call Mexicans or illegals Animals, the discussion where the MSM pulled that word was when the meeting was focused on MS-13.


I have looked up the government transcript of the meeting I believe you are talking about and I think that is a perfectly fair criticism from you, he indeed seems to be referring to the MS-13 there and not to typical Mexicans or immigrants lol

if there was a bit of unwarranted hysteria around that quote from some news outlets I can see how that would be frustrating, I am familiar with the tabloids often distorting every little soundbite here in the UK in an unfair manner lol

what would be more than frustrating though is what you mention that popular outlets made the wrongful claim that he called all Mexicans or illegals animals when he indeed did not, can you please link me some examples of popular outlets which did this lol

markkur said:
2. When the caravan coming from Central America he did not even use the word...BROWN, to describe the people involved. BROWN was added and everywhere in the news on all outlets the very next day.


with regard to this scenario I have been unable to find on Google a specific example of a news outlet claiming that Trump spoke of brown people in that, but I am open to be educated or corrected, thus can you please link me an example where this occurred lol

I think I would second some of what Minion said, I can certainly see how the media would have a spin about these things and that could be irritating, but I am curious to find evidence where they are directly lying to you about that lol
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 30, 2018 02:01 AM
Edited by artu at 02:14, 30 Aug 2018.

Salamandre said:
The people operating within the deep state or whatever is called are not going to yell on the roofs what they do and why, so asking for names is pointless. Personally I don't think there is some articulated conspiracy out there, but more of an ideology shared among power holding people, like the guys owning the press, the social platforms and the research engines. All is about information today, if you control how the information spreads, what is told and what should not be told, then you get a serious advantage. Seeing how dishonest the left-leaned press became, it is safe to name news anchors and journalists etc as the deep state. This is not to say right-leaning press isn't using the same procedures, they do, but when you have 90% of the press left-leaning in USA, then 100% in Europe, this becomes a serious imbalance about how every largely shared opinion is effectively heard and discussed.

Ok, this is actually answerable level reasonable than some conspiracy where some secret organization or the jews or whoever, rules the entire world and makes everyone their pawn. Yet, there is still something very problematic with the terminology, you are claiming that the rich elite are all feeding leftist politics which is like saying the lions are promoting for deers. The polarized issues you speak of in the next post, immigration, cultural identity, welfare etc, are all decided by neo-liberal economy and that is certainly not “neomarxist” or whatever some alt-right youtuber thought would be pejorative like an oxymoron such as “cultural marxism” etc. As I have explained in detail in the past, both the pace of immigration and how it effects cultural identity is all determined by how capitalist dynamics work, next ring of cheap labor and next ring of market to sell the products of an ever-growing economy. The shark rule of capitalsim: you must keep on advancing, if you stay still, you die. I get that by some new terminology, it’s called being a leftist to be politically correct about the consequences of this and thanks to the U.S. of A, even liberals are considered the left by this new terminology but whether you are politically correct about what’s happening or incorrect, whether you think it’s a brave new world with less borders or degeneration of stable societies, it is capitalism that you are witnessing, nothing else. And it is only “the actual left” that is critical about capitalism, although it is quite alternativeless at this point.

Going back to conservative values, some agricultural historic religion or pampering the masses about how great their traditional values are by populist tactics such as Trump or Erdogan will change nothing, because in the end, it is the flow of money that determines most things and when the money flow is this global and on top of this, when the information flow is this global, you can not go back in time anyway. Just like they couldnt go back to being provinces in an era of nations even if it meant war between the rural elites and industrial ones. The populism can only remain rhetorical, unless you actually change the system itself and I’m really sure the super rich is not very eager to do that.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted August 30, 2018 03:09 AM

verriker said:
can you please link me some examples of popular outlets which did this


Err, there is only that, everywhere, get back from Pluton.

Trump ramps up rhetoric on undocumented immigrants: 'These aren't people. These are animals.'

Trump Calls Some Unauthorized Immigrants ‘Animals’ in Rant

In reference to ‘animals,’ Trump evokes an ugly history of dehumanization

Donald Trump under-fire for calling certain illegal immigrants 'animals'

Trump says illegal migrants are 'animals, not people' in half-minute rant about gangs


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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted August 30, 2018 03:23 AM

Minion said:
How about Donald Trump lying every day to the American people? That is not a problem to you? It should


There is a core difference between conventional lies and stirring hate and division lies. One thing is Trump getting warm and inflating his Canada trade results, then another thing world-wide medias calling him a racist and a white supremacist, which is a no return to sane bases statement, it is a declaration of war. Beside, when lying, Trump is exposing and softening himself, as it is easy for the press to debunk the lies, but when the press is lying, and so often blatantly, there is no retaliating action, that truth becomes ultimate and carved in stone. Thats why I fully agree with him when stating that the press (a certain press) is the enemy of the people. They know they have the last word and they are abusing people by using that advantage.
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verriker
verriker


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posted August 30, 2018 03:26 AM

Salamandre said:
Err, there are tons of them. In France there are 2-3 anti trump articles EVERY day, using distorting facts, ignoring context, using provocative titles, stirring anti trump hate constantly again and again.


I have had a look at the links,

I think the first link of USA Today probably has the most incorrect approach out of these links because although it is technically true, it does not properly clarify about the MS-13, which can give a false impression lol

the second link is for the New York Times which is a bit better, it correctly clarified that he called some unauthorized immigrants animals, and it mentions the MS-13 bit, but it is still a bit crafty in the way it is presented lol

the Washington Post article is actually quite fair, it is labelled as an analysis so you should be sure to expect some opinion, it correctly mentions how Trump was talking about immigrants who commit violent crimes, and it has a full transcript including the MS-13 bit from the sheriff, it also goes on to credit Trump a bit about embracing illegal immigrants with great heart, but also mentions some relevant points like the other speech about "**** hole countries" lol

I see that the final two articles are UK articles so I do not know if it is relevant to the deep state, because they do not have the US audience, but anyway the Sky one does say about the MS-13 and quotes him correctly, and the Independent one also says about the MS-13 and quotes him correctly lol

if I would comment on these links I do not know if they are all in the deep state because they have different approaches,
I would probably tell my friends that the USA Today is an unreliable source and email them that they must change their article to be realistic, and I do not think the New York Times article is very unbiased, but I would not really say the others are lying about that, they are just ordinary articles lol

Salamandre said:
Our president Macron is at 39% approval rate and press about him is dithyrambic, while we are constantly remembered that Trump is at lowest ever approval, 41%.


well doesn't that remove some context yourself though, aren't French approval ratings actually very different to USA approval ratings though, I have looked at the TNS Sofres polls of France and according to those it is quite normal for ratings of French presidents to be much lower than in the US, for instance Hollande was the lowest down at 12% in 2016 so Macron's are not so bad, while Trump's ratings are very low for a USA president lol

anyway I don't really worry about the approval rating, lol
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verriker
verriker


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posted August 30, 2018 03:28 AM

Salamandre said:
Err, there is only that, everywhere, get back from Pluton.


hey wait you deleted and changed your post, you were complaining about approval ratings there before I could reply lol
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Salamandre
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posted August 30, 2018 05:09 AM

Err, looks to me highly dishonest and hate stirring to have major titles literally depicting one as racist or xenophobic, then add only inside precision that what he said applied to specially murderous gangs. If it goes a couple of times like that, then on a daily base, this is exactly what means the deep state, manipulation of the masses by false data - fake news, use of populism to instigate fear where there should have been none. Like the major french outlet I posted the other day. Salvini didn't change anything to Italy legal immigration policies yet he is openly called a xenophobic because he refuses illegals.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 30, 2018 08:25 AM

Won't change anything what I say here, seeing it already degrades to immigration whining again - but formulating headlines in a way that makes people read stuff is journalism in capitalism 101.

To phrase it differently, every news outlet in the world is, one way or another EITHER dependant on revenues that in turn depend on people reading the stuff one way or another OR part of some corp and as such liable to follow the general line of opining the top is dictating.

Apar of the fact that this makes the independent press something like a chimera, even if the press WAS widely independent, it would still be in a situation of actual competition, which means that "factual news" still have to be SOLD, simply because the number of times people interested in the good are actually BUYING is severely limited.

With people usually being hooked by the first look on a headline, crafting headlines is an art in itself, and a very important one at that.

But not only that, another tradecrat is making blowing up a little something to a major event.

"FOUR DEAD BABIES FOUND IN TRASHCAN" is a pretty nasty headline that will attract a lot of attention, probably disappointing a lot when they read that the dead were actually kittens, but FOUR DEAD KITTENS FOUND IN TRASHCAN won't attract any interest in the first place.


In other words - headline journalism is something completely normal and has nothing to do with the existance of a deep state or whatever else. You might just call it advertisement.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted August 30, 2018 09:04 AM

Totally irrelevant, how headlines stuff is made to sell is not the topic - we know all that, but how headlines are made up to change the way people vote, think and act, regardless of facts.

Imagine some major outlet headlines as "Muslims raped more than 1000 white girls" then relate inside the Rotherham 10 muslim guys events, I guarantee you it will sell more than burgers and will have foremost impact over next elections, yet you will be the first one outraged and yell around to manipulation. Journalism became a joke, thats all. It went from relating facts to make the world how they want it to be.
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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


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posted August 30, 2018 09:13 AM

"Trump lies to the nation daily"

What lies are those? Any examples Soynion, or are you just butthurt over <fill in the blank>
You might say the whole Stormy Daniels thing. But that's a load of bullcrap. He wasn't president when he shagged her, and it wasn't in the oval office.

Only maybe about us getting tired from winning. That may be his only lie. Still not tired of victory.


Only MSM lies about trump. "hurr durr he's racist". Yeah right, lowest black unemployment in history under Trump. Only racists you see are the democrat party and their supporters, calling Trump supporting blacks "Uncle Toms", which is the mildest thing they call them.
That example with MS-13, which for the record are in fact animals with a severe case of rabies and schizophrenia is just one thing, one example on how the MSM takes things out of context and re-aranges them to fit their narrative.
Tax Cuts, North Korea meeting. the child separation thing. Plenty more to go.
Also, if Trumpster actually was fascist, the Firing squads would be working in triple shifts.


Now, back to a sensible discussion I have with Marrkur.

Quote:
I am ignorant of what you mean there. I have heard that much of Eastern-Europe, rejects the EU-state because they already had to endure the dictates of the central-governments of Germany's National Socialists and then the Soviet Communists; how or does that fit inside Ukraine?

I'm not saying Putin is a saint but I've followed him a few years now and I don't see the Russian people as anything resembling my enemy.
In fact, after years of Bush, Clinton, Bush and then Obama, in hindsight whenever they said enemy, something else was behind their collective actions.


De-sovietisation refers to a law, or a set of laws that prohibit people who had ties to soviet structures (your communist party, KGB, etc) to hold positions in government, because it results in massive corruption. Only Estonia afaik had passed such laws and that too was recently. In contrast, here, the list of KGB associates is still classified for another 70+ years, since I assume it holds a lot of names currently in politics or other positions of power. For bleeps sake, our fatass minister of foreign affairs was a communist youth secretary. Also Belarus has the whole corruption thing somewhat under control, because Comrade Lukashenko kicks ass, because of his hands on approach on things.


Only some eastern Bloc countries that are in EU reject the EU policies regarding certain things(like mass moor migration). the Visegrad 4 (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia and Hungary) is the most prominent in this. Can't talk about the other two baltic states, but my own country just pretty much does whatever Brussels tells them to, kinda similar to how they did things when we were part of the USSR.
Poland is against both of these totalitarian ideologies, but Slavmalia is a whole other thing. Again, in essence, they're just some slavic tribes that cannot go beyond the tribal society model. They "abhor" communism( "right wingers" assault WW2 vets for example), and let neo-nazi militias( your pravi-sektor, your azov and the rest) run willy bleeping nilly through their failed state. corruption is absolutely rampant, and I've heard stories of cops actually robbing people by demanding outrageous sums of bribes. A buddy of mine who deals in used cars claims that the situation there is on par, if not worse with the situation in the early 90s when the USSR collapsed.
Slavmalian government's dream is to get into both EU and NATO, and it would actually spell disaster to both organisations, because crackpots run the failed state. But as international law dictates, a country with teritorial disputes cannot join such organisations, and it's a very good thing indeed. So at least for now, that dream will remain as such.
Why a disaster? first, with the development program that EU has, they'd be hemmorrhaging money to one of the most corrupt state in the continent, and second, they could actually draw NATO into a pointless war with Russia. Mind you, same thing is being escalated, albeit in a rather downright retarded manner by my own government, claiming that Russian invasion is imminent. And it hurts the country bad. For example, Coca-Cola group closed their soft drink plant here. And the sanctions imposed by both parties(EU and Russia) harmed our meat and dairy industry, making us lose millions in trade profits.

Putin is the best option that Russia has now. He's not perfect, everybody knows that, but still better than other choices. Other leaders, like the clown Zhirinovski, would've already succumbed to various provocations for war. The average russian is nobody's enemy. They just want what any other average Joe, or Ivan in this case wants - a roof over his head, a job, a steady paycheck, social security and I guess a gallon of vodka or two. The true enemy, is always the enemy within, all the warmongering turncoats that cling to their seats of power like superglue, but hey, such is life.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 30, 2018 09:26 AM

You try to sell something with an IMAGINARY headline? That's more than ridiculous.

Your problem is, you are throwing everything in the pot you want it to be in to serve your opinion - which is depressingly monotonous.

It's also nonsensical, by the way: in a world in which there is no way anymore to actually check on the truth of a news, because you cannot trust anyone to tell it or have no way to discern it within the wealth of half-truths and lies, there is no way anymore to be sure about what actually happens and what is fake and what is not.

Therefore all opinion is reduced to belief, and any quotes can be disbelieved and distrusted.

Since that has MASSIVE, MASSIVE consequences for the everyone; it leads to a feeling of insecureness, desorientation and isolation and gives everyone a good reason to "trust their bias", becoming a lot more open to manipulation.

That is the real manipulation that is going on, the undermining of the true fact as a real existing commodity.

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Salamandre
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posted August 30, 2018 09:32 AM

See, when you don't like headlines, you call them imaginary regardless of facts. At least I look for facts when I denounce imaginary headlines, next time try to do same so we don't waste time.

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JollyJoker
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posted August 30, 2018 10:02 AM

You forget that there are no facts anymore and no reliable way to check what is fake and what is not. At least, if you believe your own rantings.

It amounts to everyone accusing everyone else of falling for or spreading fake news, making every discussion impossible - which is exactly what the "fake news" propaganda certain circles spread are aiming at.

You have a point? No, you've been a victim of believing in fake news! I have a point? No, I've been a victim of fake news as well!

No facts anymore, no truths, just lies and agendas.

Don't see the strategy? Tell blatant lies and denounce everyone else as liar. Not exactly new, but effective nonetheless.

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JollyJoker
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posted August 30, 2018 11:05 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 11:16, 30 Aug 2018.

Obviously there is no objectivity. Even what is NOT reported is already colouring the picture. What is described with how many words on what page or how long on TV. Wh's getting to comment how long ... the list is endless.

FACTS are objective, but their presentation isn't. Ever.

Of course there are differences, subtile and not so subtile ones, but MANIPULATION is something else then faking or lying. Manipulation is always based on rhetorics, and that's something everyone does, even as a child, when you screw up and try to make it look not THAT bad. It's in the nature of things that one and the same thing can be seen differently. A glass can be half full and half empty, everyone knows that example.

That is one thing. Trying to portray a fact in a way that suits you is, for example, something our whole legal system is based upon, amounting largely to two parties giving their own version of events leaving it to the judges or jury to decide which one they want to believe. That the legal system is built upon that is an admission that this is "normal".

However, DENYING the truth of a fact and the fabrication of "alternative facts" is something else entirely.

EDIT: And before I forget it, never before could you make so believable fakes  and spread them so effectively.

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Salamandre
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posted August 30, 2018 11:32 AM

Sorry I was editing and post is gone accidentally. The question was: is journalism still objective or just interpreting things. JJ answer above.

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markkur
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posted August 30, 2018 12:18 PM

Thanks kip, well written and helpful for me to see the picture there.

Greed and corruption is all over the world now, and DC may be the worst. The more I learn, the worse the picture gets. I hope the truth comes out about a lot of stuff that is NOT covered.

The fake news that I care about is chiefly about what's going on in other nations. IF we hear anything it's warmongering stuff, or trying to block any peace progress. i.e. President Trump meets Putin and the criminals back home called him a traitor. Same thing with N.K. However, little is covered elsewhere and considering the Media we have...that's probably just as well.

What I want to see is for the US to get out of nations and let the people there do want they want peacefully or fight their own wars for whatever it is those people want. Btw, over 35 years ago I wrote an essay in college on "The Red White and Blue Cops on a Foreign Beat."
The control-freaks here what to control everything everywhere.

I have a hope that what information is available open-source is going to blow a lot of people's minds.

Frankly, I like to talk about many things but folks are too hot under the collar and I'm not up to flame-wars. I already endure much too much inflammation.

You know, it's a damn shame we have to have people write books outside of government to get any "decent" info and then we have people writing books inside government that usually are not fit to be used as waste paper. If I had my way book-writing would only be memoirs as it once was.

Here's a link you might find of interest. If this family-thing that is going on all over the place comes out in the light of day, lots of heads will roll. If not, we'll remain burnt toast as a nation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVVwhFsl6W8

Stay safe over there.

@ All
Look up and research (SES) Senior Executive Service and you should get a glimpse of one of the many layers of self-appointed groups.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 30, 2018 12:26 PM

Well. On the issue of trump "lying":

Is a false claim a lie, and if not, how many false claims are necessary for a president to be called a liar?

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