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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 09:47 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 09:53, 04 May 2022.
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Minion said:
Seeing countless villages burning, CIVILIANS murdered, tortured, raped.... make normal people rage.
So they themselves led Ukraine to this. And they are angry that not everyone will recognize the lies that they impose.
I see that you are a relatively young man, already zombified by the West. Still, on the side of Russia (the majority, of course, have already left for us after 2014) are older Ukrainian people. In general, I see these events as a civil war in Ukraine, in which Russia participates, alas, very late.
If you watch our (Russian) broadcasts with the participation of propagandists, the majority of Ukrainians are there, former or still (I mean that our propagandists themselves are Ukrainians). Naturally, they support the military operation.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 04, 2022 10:06 AM |
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@ihor
Funny how you start saying I tell nonsense then acknowledge 100% of what I said : no sanctions on oil, oil and gas prices went up, Russia gets more money than before.
The data you posted are predictions using the current situation, which is volatile. Which means maybe, maybe not.
There are too many parameters which may invalidate those predictions : end of war, status of negotiations, Russian trade with China, India and Africa, unrest and revolts in European area due to energy cut and war due inflation and so on.
When people claim "whole world cuts ties with Russia", that is only half true. Right now there is no negative effect from sanctions while Putin popularity and support increased from 60% to 83%.
So it doesn't work. Sanctions are made to end the war, otherwise they make no sense.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 10:09 AM |
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Von der Leyen said the EU was announcing an end to its dependency on Russian oil: "It will not be easy but we simply have to do it." All Russian oil will be phased out, she said, but in an orderly fashion. Crude oil will be phased out in six months and refined products by the end of 2022, she said.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 10:55 AM |
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@Minion
Great news!
@Sal
Sigh...
Going back to facts
Fact 1. You claimed that Putin doesn't care about sanctions.
Fact 2. IMF predicts Russia GDP decline by 8.5%, mostly because of sanctions and loss of confidence.
Yes that's a prediction and might change but that prediction is based on sanctions (because they work).
So based on Fact 1 and Fact 2 your statement means that Putin doesn't care about Russia GDP decline by about 8.5% or what?
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted May 04, 2022 11:24 AM |
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You seem to not understand that one side predictions are NOT facts.
Take for example oil and gas, if EU cuts Russian importations, that doesn't mean Russia can't export them anymore, there are other potential huge consumers, China for example.
So economic predictions are almost crystal ball level, they only reflect EU position on EU/Russia only trade contracts.
Also, nobody can yet answer to what happens with sanctions if Putin secures, annexes Donbass, considers goal is done then ends the war. Which is probably how will go.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 11:38 AM |
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I think the forecast for a fall in GDP is correct, but this is only for the next year, there should not be further decline. The very concept of GDP is dubious, the GDP of Western countries is "inflated", it is determined by consumer services (for example, grooming dogs) and financial speculation.
The very possibility of the collapse of the world economy by Russia and the oil-producing countries of the Middle East (which also have a low GDP) suggests that GDP in itself does not mean much.
At least the inhabitants of Russia can be sure that their basic needs are met. But for the provision of basic needs of Europeans in the next few years - I would not vouch.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 12:39 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Also, nobody can yet answer to what happens with sanctions if Putin secures, annexes Donbass, considers goal is done then ends the war. Which is probably how will go.
If you suggest we forget and forgive, dream on buddy. The relationship will not normalize, even if peace is achieved. Russia can sell it's oil to others, we won't tolerate a raping, pillaging totalitarian neighbour. We tried being nice, building more pipelines to integrate Russia more into our economy. In hindsight, a mistake. Putin took advantage of that, he thought we would fear so much for our economies that we would sit quietly and watch no matter what he does (which is what you wish would have happened based on your posts)
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 04, 2022 12:57 PM |
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North Korea.. Russia isn't Cuban level in the future.. Sanctions are a very OP.. and can be 200 years.. I know press wrote 50 between 100 years.. Depends on generations..
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 04, 2022 01:02 PM |
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I didn't see many sanctions after US quit the destroyed Iraq, up to one million estimated victims, illegal war etc etc.
When hypocrites play the tough guys.
Buddy 
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JollyJoker
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posted May 04, 2022 01:06 PM |
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I don't think, there will be a formal peace treaty, because Ukraine isn't likely to accept the loss of the Donbass. It will more likely become something like Ulster or the Basque region. Or Vietnam or Iraq - or Afghanistan if you want to. Should Russia succeed militarily.
Not to mention the fate of the residual Ukraine.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 02:14 PM |
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Quote:
You seem to not understand that one side predictions are NOT facts.
You're incompetent, Russian Central Bank forecasts GDP decline by 8-10% which is the same.
Putin doesn't care about sanctions, blah blah blah.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 04:42 PM |
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Salamandre said:
I didn't see many sanctions after US quit the destroyed Iraq, up to one million estimated victims, illegal war etc etc.
So you think it would be logical for me to be equally upset about the endless wars in Middle East, as a WAR IN MY HOME CONTINENT? First since 2nd world war? You are being ridiculous.
Btw nevertheless I opposed USA relentlessly when they invaded Iraq. I was bashed as "Anti-American" so many times I can't remember. Were you for Iraq war, I can't remember? Maybe I should read the old threads. But I trust you, so were you equally pro Iraq war as you are pro war in Ukraine?
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 05:16 PM |
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The problem with borders and the groups it is meant to define, is they are set at a certain time depending on the respective 'power' of the neighbouring countries.
Look at Mongolia, see how large it is, how much goodies it must contain, currently useless because they are 3m Mongolians. I can see that many people from my apartment (slight exageration).
It 'exists' as a political border because the relative strength of the USSR / China at the time.
Did you know 'East' Russians are asian-looking? There are ethnic mongolians in China.. what's to stop the rest of the 3M belonging in China? There are 10M Uighers.
Thats 'logic' of political borders.
So "Ukraine is sovereign country" is technically correct, but you are talking at the 3yr-old/Kamala Harris level and it ignore the massive reality problem - if there was no Russia next door, it would be like China vs the Uighers, there is NOTHING THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT (or should, as quick frankly they would be killed, I'm sorry I didn't make the world this way, ask any country, any ethnicity) but good thing (or unfortunate depending on how you look at it) Russia chooses to help them, you call it an invasion, they say f-you they are my people..
Pls don't ask me about the Uiughers, I am much more humane (to a fault perhaps) than the average Chinese, I have always advocated for better treatment, but time and again our great President has proven he is much more wise and capable than I.. EVERY country persecutes it's minorities, even the kindest Budhist in Thailand/Myanmar etc. go on killing sprees
So I cannot anybody for defending their homeland, but the 'rationale' was big brother protecting little brother within your borders, so the end result that is stable may very well be a smaller Ukraine that is commensurate with it's population, the the extent that it becomes a Crusade-type irrational conflict of belief that is fueled by western 'conscience'/morality is unhelpful.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 04, 2022 05:17 PM |
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Minion said:
So you think it would be logical for me to be equally upset about the endless wars in Middle East, as a WAR IN MY HOME CONTINENT? First since 2nd world war?
No, I was talking generally, not about you. All those virtue signaling emotive acting preteens who suddenly discover what real war looks like, then pretend to be upset about and bawl all around using caps, that can't be you, of course.
Btw, first war on our continent? Kosovo, 10 000 civilians killed, 90% of Albanians displaced.
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NimoStar
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posted May 04, 2022 05:34 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 17:43, 04 May 2022.
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From a purely belical point of view, it may be said that it is quite strange Russia has chosen to "attack" knowing full weel of the consequences. Maybe they hoped for a quick victory? Who knows?
But anyways, Russian forces are still on the advance, though slowly, and it is kind of impressive copnsidering the hundreds of billions of dollars of loans, weaponry and so called "aid" being pumped into Ukraine by the west nearly every week, while Russia is heavily sactioned; this isn't war on Ukraine alone, but to the whole of NATO. The only limitation is that they can't go under their own flag due to nukes.
During CCCP war in Afghanistan, USA had to hide it was sending massive amount of weapons to islamists, and yet they won even with these loopholes. Now they don't even hide it, and it's not a single nation but tens of them doing it; and however they can't seem to turn the tide just yet.
The not hiding could show a new power imbalance seeing Warsaw pact is no more, but on the other hand, the west has become a lot more ineffective too.
The westerners seem to have miscalculated as well - they thought Putin served Russian oligarchs and by sanctioning oligarchs they could pressure Putin. But as it turns out they may have projected western political system into Russian context. It turns out, Putin doesn't serve oligarchs - It is oligarchs who serve Putin.
Only China can laught... (Well, at least economically. Russia's army seems to still be the most powerful ground forces, since historically Chinese army is very cowardly and defensive, massive desertions and low morale since ancient times... Manchu/Mongol dynasties were the most expansionist ones. Plus China got occupied relatively recently by multinational coalition, then Japanese. Russia wasn't subjugated since 15th century.)
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 05:52 PM |
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NimoStar said:
historically Chinese army is very cowardly and defensive
That is a correct categorisation
Just like Indians are magnanimous and defensive.. because they are like, what are you doing here? you want to invade? haha
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 06:16 PM |
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NimoStar said:
During CCCP war in Afghanistan, USA had to hide it was sending massive amount of weapons to islamists, and yet they won even with these loopholes. Now they don't even hide it, and it's not a single nation but tens of them doing it; and however they can't seem to turn the tide just yet.
The Soviet army did not lose in Afghanistan. On the contrary, she controlled the entire country, unlike the Americans in the 2000s,
who hid in their bases and were not afraid to lean out of there.
The war did not end for the reason that the flow of Mujahideen and weapons came from Pakistan, and the USSR did not want to strike at the territory of this country.
In the late 80s, the USSR left Afghanistan because it was leaving from everywhere, including Europe, which today's Europeans do not appreciate at all. For example, the USSR helped to unite Germany (but, for example, Great Britain was against the unification of Germany).
After the USSR left Afghanistan, the Najibula regime remained there,
which successfully fought the Mujahideen for several years,
but it stopped receiving ammunition and fuel from the USSR / Russia.
For comparison, the regime that remained in Afghanistan after the departure of the Americans did not last even 1 month.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted May 04, 2022 06:18 PM |
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The complete fall of India to the british, even being governed the entire subcontinent by a semi-private company, is still befuddling. Certainly, China could resist more than that, since the western control was confined to a few key port cities. It seems the Indians lacked national pride since they were already controlled by Muslim dynasties mostly, so they were used to being under foreign rule.
Current India may be culturally different though, and they forged more nationalism in the opposition to Pakistan. However, their arms industry is not very developed and is certainly inferior to the Chinese, as well as their economy is just doing what China did decades before with the elimination of extreme poverty. So much for the superiority of the free market...
India is geographically very small for it's population and cultural history. It is confined by himalayas and the sea. In contrast in Russian culture seems to beckon military expansionism, since they are technically vulnerable and surrounded by huge land borders. They don't have a natural geographical defense for the heartland from the west, only their size, which is why the obsession with creating buffer states - Probably the future purpose of the republics of Donestk and Lugansk.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 04, 2022 06:30 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 18:41, 04 May 2022.
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NimoStar said:
But anyways, Russian forces are still on the advance, though slowly, and it is kind of impressive copnsidering the hundreds of billions of dollars of loans, weaponry and so called "aid" being pumped into Ukraine by the west nearly every week, while Russia is heavily sactioned; this isn't war on Ukraine alone, but to the whole of NATO.
Exactly. Russia has introduced a relatively small military contingent there, which is fighting the Ukrainian army, which is several times larger. In Ukraine, 3 waves of mobilization have already been carried out, and in Russia - not a single one. In addition, Russia extremely limits itself in the means and methods of waging war, protecting the civilian population (this is precisely a special military operation). If we fought like the Americans - just tearing the cities to pieces, then everything would have ended long ago.
Unfortunately, the Ukrainian Nazis take advantage of this and, in fact, hide behind the civilian population.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 04, 2022 06:32 PM |
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@The Soviet army did not lose in Afghanistan.@
Fully wrong! The same American fan or maybe dweller is disagree with Vietnam war.. I've book, it tell that USSR lost 1 trillion dollar in Afghan war without result. And USA lost 2 trillion dollar in Vietnam war, but government wanted to continue. Americans didn't want to.. By short..
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