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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 09:00 AM |
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Ben80 said:
Your weapons have done no good for Afghanistan, and do no good for Ukraine. Understand it at last.
You compare apples with tomatoes. In the case of Afghanistan the US provided weapons for a bunch of fanatics to destabilize a government that, while in power due to a USSR staged coup, was not a bad one. They did it to thwart the USSR, not to help Afghanistan, and ultimately they paid a very high price for that.
In the case of Ukraine they provide weapons for the rightful government of a neutral European country that has been assaulted by their neighbor, so that the neutral European country can defend itself against a brutal aggressor. There is nothing wrong with the latter.
There was a chance that Russia could pull this through: take Kyev fast, execute the rightful government, put in a puppet regime, declare the Donbass region a free country (or two) and create facts fast.
However, Russia was too weak and too badly prepared and the Ukrainians withstood the Russians with what they had, WITHOUT help - long enough for everyone to see what was going on and to support the Ukraine (after everyone thought they would crumble fast).
At that point, when it was clear that this plan wouldn't work, Russia should have done the clever thing and ended it. They could have declared the end of their "Special Operation" and be done with it, demanded some internationally guaranteed treaty with regard to the future of the Ukraine and everything would have been fine. The plan didn't work, time to change it.
But this Russia ISN'T clever. It's just a schoolyard bully, no brain, just brawns, and eben those aren't that formidable.
If it was a poker game, at this point Russia still had been able to calmly fold their hand and demand a new pack of cards, and everyone would have run to negotiate something for the future. See? A FRIGHT, now let's get this elephant out of the room.
NOW, however, there's too much money on the table for anyone to fold. I see only ONE chance for this for a good ending: Sacrificing Putin, immediately ending the war without conditions and offer Ukraine ahalf a trillion Rubel in reparations, payable in Russian help with recovery (basically, let Russia do the recovery with Russian firms and workers and so on).
The alternative is either destroying the Ukraine completely or having eternal war around the Donbass.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 09:15 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 10:11, 05 May 2022.
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JollyJoker said:
You compare apples with tomatoes. In the case of Afghanistan the US provided weapons for a bunch of fanatics to destabilize a government that, while in power due to a USSR staged coup, was not a bad one.
So in Ukraine to power and brought the same fanatics. In Ukraine, the Americans used the same technologies as when creating ISIS. Those who now rule in Ukraine are the same terrorists as the leaders of ISIS.
JollyJoker said:
There was a chance that Russia could pull this through: take Kyev fast, execute the rightful government, put in a puppet regime, declare the Donbass region a free country (or two) and create facts fast.
However, Russia was too weak and too badly prepared and the Ukrainians withstood the Russians with what they had, WITHOUT help - long enough for everyone to see what was going on and to support the Ukraine (after everyone thought they would crumble fast).
I already wrote that Russia extremely limits itself in the means of waging war. If they fought like the Americans, destroying cities into dust, everything would have been over long ago. We have moral restraints, you don't. If you are a moron and do not understand what is repeated to you several times, then these are your problems.
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 09:17 AM |
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Of course. The authorities in Ukraine are elected. There is freedom of speech in every election there is a new president because the old one always people do not liked. The government has recently fought against corruption and, as the war shows, it has managed to build a great army in place of the Soviet type of army like in Russia. Such a country was attacked by a wilderness thughs with tyrant Nazi media, political murders, total theft and corruption. A country from which people flee to live a normal life. Comparition Zelensky with talib thughs whose only competence is to kill people is not a funny abberation. You see russian ugly character.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 09:22 AM |
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baronus said:
You see russian ugly character.
I do not think that all Poles are bad, I respect many, but you are a really sick guy. You are exactly the kind of Pole I heard about (and hoped that there were very few of them) - vicious prostitutes who envy Russia.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 05, 2022 09:22 AM |
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@"Special Operation"@
We aren't deaf, stupid and blind. We understand a term, and we are waited for Ukrainian people will join to Russia. Ukrainian soldiers disappear or surrender to Russia. Snow! But Ukraine showed Finnish SISU.. So Russian nose, smelling skin, sin, etc are defeated to Ukraine.. When declaration of war?! We understand too.. We remember Hitler's declaration of war..
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 09:27 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 09:36, 05 May 2022.
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@Ghost,
Ukraine itself has not yet declared war. Can you explain why ?
Quote:
Finnish SISU..
So you lost the Soviet-Finnish war (1939-1940) in less than six months. Under the peace treaty, Finland ceded 11% of its territory. Stalin did not take everything, because he realized that the Finns would not become Soviet people anyway. Also, you were not punished after the Second World War, despite the fact that you basely supported Hitler. You were spared.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 05, 2022 09:32 AM |
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Ukraine defends from Russia. No attack to weak country.. So you don't know a term.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 09:35 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 09:45, 05 May 2022.
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Ghost said:
Ukraine defends from Russia. No attack to weak country.. So you don't know a term.
A country always has the right to declare war, no matter how strong or weak it is. A declaration of war does not necessarily mean that a country is going to take something from a stronger neighbor. So you have a terminology problem.
Ukrainian nationalist battalions use the same terrorist methods of warfare, hiding behind civilians (and kill civilians). That is, the same handwriting of curators and instructors that was in ISIS is visible there.
Only today there was news that the nationalists locked in Azovstal (Mariopol) said they were ready to release the hostages (peaceful) in exchange for food.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 10:11 AM |
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Quote:
I already wrote that Russia extremely limits itself in the means of waging war. If they fought like the Americans, destroying cities into dust, everything would have been over long ago.
Ahhh, that Russian arrogance again. Trying to find excuses for military failures?
Not destroying cities into dust you say? Here's Mariupol for example.
Extremely limits? So limited, so that over 2k missiles were launched and with low stocks you launch anti-ship missiles on ground targets. So limited, so that thousands of tanks are now gone. Ahh, those limits.
@JJ
I liked your poker comparison, but I didn't expect them to fold. Russian military doctrine uses the principle "escalate to deescalate". They raise more and more using all possible resources including gas and military, and it's still not All-In. Sometimes I'm just hoping it's just a madman brinkmanship tactics and won't go up to nuclear strikes, but who knows.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 10:17 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 10:27, 05 May 2022.
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ihor said:
Not destroying cities into dust you say? Here's Mariupol for example.
Mariupol was destroyed as a result of street fighting (because Ukrainian nationalists are afraid to fight not in cities.). Americans don't fight street fights - they just turn cities into crumbs with rockets and bombs.
ihor said:
So limited, so that thousands of tanks are now gone.
We didn't have that many in the whole Ukrainian group. If this were the case, Russia would long ago have been forced to mobilize in the country, but it did not do this, unlike Ukraine, which had already mobilized 3 times to compensate for losses.
ihor said:
Sometimes I'm just hoping it's just a madman brinkmanship tactics and won't go up to nuclear strikes, but who knows.
Tactical nuclear weapons will never be used on the territory of Ukraine. It can only be applied to NATO countries if they finally lose their minds.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 10:31 AM |
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What is street fighting? You mean that devastation was done by AK-47? Hundreds of buildings burnt... That's ridiculous. Artillery was obviously used - those same bombs and missiles. How do you think the hospital was destroyed, or the drama theatre? Russians even used unguided FAB-500 bombs on Azovstal, a bomb weighing half a tonne. Mariupol isn't even the only example, some other cities like Popasna or Rubizhne are basically erased, Kharkiv also heavily shelled.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 10:34 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 10:35, 05 May 2022.
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Yes, war is always bad (I'm not joking and I can't joke about such topics).
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 10:36 AM |
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As for the lost equipment. There's photo or video confirmation of at least 605 tanks, 667 IFVs, 108APCs, etc at the moment. Source
Ukrainian documented equipment losses for comparison here
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 10:45 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 10:48, 05 May 2022.
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I understand that you want to believe it. In the same way I believe other sources. Just understand - when equipment is destroyed, people are also destroyed, and we don’t have such human losses (otherwise we would have to mobilize).
"Never lie so much as during the war, after the hunt and before the election."
Bismark.
Do you know this quote?
By the way - I also do not trust Western sources of information. Although, of course, I consider Ukrainian media to be the least solid.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 11:06 AM |
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Honestly, I don't care what you consider and what sources you believe in. I have supporting photos and videos and that's enough for credibility. And yes, you do have such human losses. Ukraine GenStab estimates are about 24k at the moment, which is probably way up, but even if you take more conservative estimates, it's over 15k KIA with a lot more WIA. Notice, I don't say Ukraine's human losses are low, those are also high, but judging from the equipment losses, still much lower than Russian.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 11:13 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 11:17, 05 May 2022.
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What's with the video or photo? You again confirm the assumption that the Ukrainians are bad with logic. Videos or photos do nothing to assess the losses - they only confirm that there are some specific cases. In addition, I saw a lot of analyzes showing how Ukrainians make fakes - pass off their padded equipment as Russian.
Again - turn on the logic. We know that for the last month and a half, the front has been roughly standing still. The Ukrainian army is several times larger than the Russian group. At the same time, Ukraine has already carried out 3 mobilizations to compensate for losses, while Russia has not had a single one. The obvious conclusion is that Ukraine's losses are several times greater (since Ukraine is mobilizing, and the front is still standing still). This allows me to agree with the sources of information that I use.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 11:25 AM |
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The estimate of the forces strength is about 250k Russians + LDNR + mercenaries vs 300k Ukraine. So technically yes, Ukraine has more troops, but out of 300k, 100k are paramilitary. Territorial defense forces are basically sitting in their home cities, for example in Western Ukraine they are mostly doing nothing. Also, Ukraine has to hold some forces away from the frontline, for example the Belarus border (hello to Lukashenko) and close to Transnistria (because Russians have forces there too). Furthermore, mobilized citizens are not immediately thrown into battle, that would be a suicide, there's a training program (I don't know how much it takes, but my assumption is about a month).
If you are talking about hot areas like around Izium, then in there Russian forces strength is bigger. From what I remember a week ago it was around 80k Russians against 50k Ukrainians. So turn on logic.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 05, 2022 11:26 AM |
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Russian generals were killed with the help of U.S. Intelligence
That's fine. Why then brag about how Russia is weak and Ukraine strong. The war is clearly half of the world (U.S. included) and Ukraine vs Russia. We are in a technological era, proper information and high tech weapons are doing all the difference on the field.
I listened today on french medias the Russian ambassador describing how hard is for Russian army to advance as Ukrainians constantly uses civilians as shield. That's how people always waged wars, no surprise.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 11:28 AM |
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Oh, and a simple military rule. Attacking forces take more damage than defending. That's obvious, go read Sun Tzu. And now ask yourself, who was attacking for the last 2.5 months?
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2022 11:37 AM |
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ihor said:
Oh, and a simple military rule. Attacking forces take more damage than defending. That's obvious, go read Sun Tzu. And now ask yourself, who was attacking for the last 2.5 months?
Sun Tzu did not write about this, so I do not accept your invitation. This balance of power is rather from Soviet or German military textbooks.
Tell the Americans about it. Russian forces are also trying to wage war using the technological advantage of hitting the enemy at a distance. We do not see in this war the classic Soviet strategy - quick breakthroughs deep into the defenses - because this really requires several times superiority in forces.
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