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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted April 04, 2006 02:17 AM |
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Well everyone compares me to anyone.
I simply don't care what you are saying against/to me.
Tower heroes are strong heroes to have.
Orrin is probably the best choice to have within your army as he has the unique ability of having 5% bonus to Archery skill per level I think.
And since the Tower has 3 ranged attackers, then Orrin is an excellent choice to have as your main hero.
Also Neela is the strongest Tower hero because of her Armourer ability.
She gets 5% bonus per level towards Armourer skill which is excellent as this will decrease the damage inflicted by enemy units towards your own units.
Neela and Orrin are probably the heroes that you should try to get as soon as possible.
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Zsa
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2006 02:41 AM |
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there's few heroes i'd pick over neela. She's an awesome hero imo.
I'm a bit confused by that list maretti, I do see an advantage to picking a barbarian for high offense, but I really fail to see the gain of picking a beastmaster or a demoniac.
Depends what you play of course. I find it a REAL pain for example, to play inferno or stronghold with an armourer as opposed to an offense hero (and as such I never try to do that).
In that case I would choose any tactics/offense or some other offense hero over her.
However, alchem have pretty decent chance of getting the skills that other heroes get. It is a difference that is NOT really noticeable. The only issue with alchem is their high chance of getting learning (maximum :\)
Furthermore, the attack and defense that you get extra on the other might heroes is not that great really.
In the first 10 levels (where the difference is noticeable), the barbarian/beast will only get roughly 3 more att/def primary skills than the alchemist, the knight ranger only 2, demoniacs level the same (primary skill wise). I really don't find that life altering. I'd rather have my armourer specialty than a hero with a useless special and a crappy skill.
It can be beneficial to get some spellpower and knowledge in the beggining anyway. I hate it when I have a lvl 10 might hero and I can only cast 2-4 spells with him, with only 1-3 spell power.
So while I don't wanna argue against barbs, I'd definetly pick neela over most beastmasters out there, most rangers (including mephala), most knights, and most demoniacs.
____________
"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted April 04, 2006 03:17 AM |
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Yes Neela is probably the best hero in the game IMO, I agree with you on that Zsa.
When you have Neela you should also try to get the Offense secondary skill or maybe the First Aid skill.
They will help you and you will also have increased things because you have Armourer, Offense and to help heal some of your units The First Aid skill.
Neela is one of the best heroes to have and you should make her your Main hero.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 04, 2006 01:26 PM |
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Quote:
...So while I don't wanna argue against barbs, I'd definetly pick neela over most beastmasters out there, most rangers (including mephala), most knights, and most demoniacs.
But itīs not true, Neela has the same chances of getting the same good skills as other might heroes.
Neela can get 4 different magic skills, Rangers only 3, therefor they get earh much more often.
About useless skills....i would like to have leadership on my main better than having scholar, therefor 1 more reason why i would chose Mephala over Neela anytime.
Ivor would be a good choice also, coz he starts with archery already, and having expert archery with Tower, especially in the beginning of the game (where mgīs are your main force) is a hugh advantage.
Overlords and demoniacs have the highest chance getting logistics offered (besides many other good skills), therefor they are also a must. Especially those who start with tactics, which is an essential skill for Tower in my eyes.
Orrin would be the only knight (except Mullich perhaps) whom i would chose for Tower main.
Beastmasters will never be a bad choice, coz armorer is always nice to have. But Tower counts on shooters (3), hard hitters (naga), spellcasters (genie) and tough magic dumpers (golems), therefor i think, this town doesnīt benefit that much from an armorer specialist as other "hand-to-hand" towns do.
The discussion about "usefull" skills is pretty much endless, coz every player has his own style, plays HIS kind of maps / templates, so the tastes will differ most of the time. But i guess we can agree, there are 5 skills, which every online player tries to get for his main: log, tactics, arm, off, earth.
The other 3 skills depend on starting skills, map settings and personal tastes. So i donīt think it makes that much difference to have 1 "bad" starting skill.
Just my 2 cents....
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Zsa
Famous Hero
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posted April 04, 2006 02:47 PM |
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Yes neela can get all 4 of the magic schools.
However, when neela gets offered a school of magic, she has a 7:3 chance of getting air or earth.
Mephala has a chance of 4:3 of getting offered air or earth.
So while mephala has a higher chance of getting earth (3:4 compared to 3:7) by itself, in all fairness, neela has a higher chance of getting both air and earth up.
Also, mephala has a higher chance of getting offered water magic than neela getting offered fire and water magic together. Again, where is the great advantage?
I do understand the overlord, demoniac reasoning. But picking marius just because he has a higher chance of getting log is not my idea of a good choice. Demoniacs develop same as alchems, cept they don't start with spellbook, and you'll have a useless special (pyrre not included).
From the overlords, the ones I would seriously consider would be dace and shakti, those two guys I love.
Peace 
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted April 12, 2006 02:23 PM |
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THE TOWER
Advantages:
- Titans are awesome ranged units, and with no melee penalty can be a pain in the neck
- Nagas are wonderful level 6 units with high damage and health
- Gargoyles are useful early units
- Very magically adept heroes, can easily learn magic schools
- Three shooters, one very frightening
- Great magic
Disadvantages:
- Units are very slow - opposition will almost always get first attack with faster units
- Gremlins and Genies are very fragile and aren't powerful
- Very expensive to build and maintain
- Heroes don't gain attack and defense much
Heroes:
- Wizards are my preferred choice of creature here - Solymr, Aine, and Cyra are my preferred. Alchemists don't interest me one little bit
Best Unit:
TITAN - they shoot like hell
Worst Unit:
MASTER GREMLIN - sure they shoot, but before you know it, they're all dead
OVERALL RANKING: 5th
____________
No one knows my true nature here...
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted April 12, 2006 04:14 PM |
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Quote:
I do understand the overlord, demoniac reasoning. But picking marius just because he has a higher chance of getting log is not my idea of a good choice. Demoniacs develop same as alchems, cept they don't start with spellbook, and you'll have a useless special (pyrre not included).
I really fail to understand Demoniac logic as well. Demoniacs have REALLY REALLY bad chance of getting air+earth. They don't level as good as barbs. Their specialties are quite useless and picking a hero like Marius will greatly increase your chances of getting a crappy 2-nd skill. While scholar may not be the best 2-nd skill, it is better than many other skills and it has a lot of potential, especially on poor maps.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 12, 2006 06:19 PM |
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Quote:
I really fail to understand Demoniac logic as well. Demoniacs have REALLY REALLY bad chance of getting air+earth. They don't level as good as barbs. Their specialties are quite useless and picking a hero like Marius will greatly increase your chances of getting a crappy 2-nd skill. While scholar may not be the best 2-nd skill, it is better than many other skills and it has a lot of potential, especially on poor maps.
Perhaps we mix up 2 things here.
I guess we all agree, offense and armorer are 2 of the best skills in the game. How can a hero be a bad main, if he has advanced offense or armorer from day 1, like Marius and Nymus have?
If u have expert offense day 2, u deal 30% more damage right from the start of the game, and the attack and defense skills of a demoniac raise more in these 2 skills than on an alchemist in comparison. So nearly every demoniac will deal more damage than any alchemist will do. And the chance of getting 1 useless skill on darius or nymus at level 3 is present, while it is 100% on neela (has already scholar).
The discussion about "speciality" is quite senseless in my eyes, coz with that logic, Tyraxor must be a very bad main for Tower (rarely any wolves there.. ), but for me, any hero who starts with tactics is a good choice being a main hero. Shaktiīs trogs also help not much with Tower. So if u take a non native main, u canīt count on the specialities much (except some...).
But as we all know, tastes differ. If i would always find Crag or Gunnar in tavern day 1, it would be boring anyway. Thatīs why i like some variations in the games.
My recently made rule for random maps:
Main hero must start with spellbook
Makes fun and changes the playstyle a bit..
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted April 12, 2006 08:06 PM |
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Quote:
So nearly every demoniac will deal more damage than any alchemist will do.
Or will he? Lets look at the facts...
Alchemists gain 30%/30% att/def before level 10.
Demoniacs gain 30%/30%.
The chances are THE SAME.
After level 10, Alchemists gain 30%/30% vs Demoniac's 20%/20%.
So, the only time when Demoniacs will deal more damage will be below level 10 and it will be... *drum roll* 5% more damage! (Or an entire 2.5% more damage when fighting tough monsters!)
Now... lets look at Marius. He starts with the Advanced Offense. His gremlins will do... 0% more damage than Neela's.
What about Nymus? Level 1 Nymus will reduce your damage by 5% more percent. Considering the fact that you should be taking 0 damage when fighting with gremlins, that's an entire 0 * 5% damage reduction! (I am assuming I don't need to explain how the armorer specialty will change things after mid-late week 1 when you will actually start to need it.)
Lets look at the magic schools too. The probability that the schools offered will be earth, air, or water (which is perharps even more important than air for the Tower) is:
4+3+2/4+3+1+2=9/10 for Alchemist
2+3+1/2+3+1+4=6/10 for Demoniac
This looks rather bad for the Demoniacs.
Yes, Demoniacs will have slightly better chances of getting might skills, but I don't think it compensates for all of the above.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 12, 2006 08:48 PM |
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Russ, we could go on forever with these discussion, and it prolly wonīt change anything. But one thing is for sure, your percentages about magicskills are completely wrong. I know you took them from the table you posted in a skill chance thread. But we already found out, these numbers (like 3 for earth) do NOT mean 3/10. With this logic, every alchemist have 100% chance to got "learning offered", coz they have a "10" there, on the other hand Demoniacs only have a 4/10 chance to get wisdom offered (which is already proved wrong)
On the other hand, we should prolly compare more "good" skills (for Tower) than only the skills that fit good in your arguments:
Logistics: Demoniac 10, Alchemist 6
Offense: Demoniac 8, Alchemist 6
Tactics: Demoniac 6, Alchemist 4
Archery: Demoniac 6, Alchemist 5
Earth: Demoniacs 3, Alchemists 3
So as u see, NONE of these skills are more refered to Alchemists than to Demoniacs.
And one more thing (but that is prolly just me), when i think about a main for my town, i donīt consider only my week 1 fights (mastergremlins), but also later fights vs the map and endfights. Most of the time your shooters will get blocked in endfight, so your offense skill is for sure important. And i have several nagas week 2 in my main army (most of the time), so they also deal way more damage with expert offense.
So only because Alchemists have slightly higher chance to get water (but chances for all other good skills are lower or equal as best), i wonīt prefer them over Demoniacs.
But as i stated already, tastes differ....
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted April 12, 2006 09:26 PM |
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Edited by Russ on 12 Apr 2006
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Quote:
Russ, we could go on forever with these discussion, and it prolly wonīt change anything. But one thing is for sure, your percentages about magic skills are completely wrong.
Hehe, you are starting to sound like Xarfax. To make matters worse, you are the one who is <NOT COMPLETELY> wrong here.
1) Even though you can do it for the might skills, you can't compare Alchemist's earth value vs Demoniac's earth value. Just because they both have 3, it doesn't mean they have equal chances of getting earth.
2) Look carefully at what I am saying before saying "you are wrong".
Quote:
Lets look at the magic schools too. The probability that the schools offered will be earth, air, or water (which is perharps even more important than air for the Tower) is:
4+3+2/4+3+1+2=9/10 for Alchemist
2+3+1/2+3+1+4=6/10 for Demoniac
This looks rather bad for the Demoniacs.
This is, in fact, the correct way of comparing those (i.e. dividing the values of desired magic schools by the sum of values of 4 magic schools).
Quote:
On the other hand, we should prolly compare more "good" skills (for Tower) than only the skills that fit good in your arguments
You didn't need to list them out for me. I've already acknowledged it in my post above.
Quote:
And one more thing (but that is prolly just me), when i think about a main for my town, i donīt consider only my week 1 fights (mastergremlins), but also later fights vs the map and endfights.
Yep, and this is where Neela will shine with her armorer specialty (even if she doesn't get offense). 30% more BASE MELEE damage vs 30% OR MORE damage reduction that reduces ALL DAMAGE? This is extremely important in the final fight and equally important in the map fights. That armorer specialty has saved my naga queens from dying too many times.
PS: in this case the chance to get Earth are equal (3/10 vs 3/10), but if you want to have both water + earth or air + earth, Neela will have a better chance on her 2-nd selection since after picking air or water on level 5, the chancs of getting earth on level 11 will be higher. If Demoniac refuses fire (the most likely magic school) on level 5, he will have the same 3/10 chance of getting earth on level 11.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted April 12, 2006 10:06 PM |
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Anyways, just to wrap this Neela vs Aine argument up so that people see where I am trying to get. Let's assume you are NOT playing Jebus, so you'll hire about 2-5 more heroes in addition to Aine depending on how poor you are. Let's say you hire 3 heroes and still have enough money to buy a 4-th one from the tavern if he/she is good.
This means that for your main you'll get a choice of 1 Tower hero (0% chance of that hero being better than Neela ) and 4 random heroes (this is why I've asked you to list them so that we can calculate the chance of you getting one of them).
I consider about 10 non-banned heroes to be better than Neela. Those are mostly Stronghold and Dungeon heroes, Mephala, Tazar and Orrin.
So, the chance that each of those 4 heroes is better than Neela is less than 1/12.
I don't like the idea of losing most of my games because I had bad luck at the inn, so I'll just pick Neela.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 12, 2006 10:07 PM |
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There is no need to compare me with Xarfax, only coz i point out your numbers are just not true, respectivly NOT proven. On the other hand, we have some evidences already, which show, some numbers are WRONG. As Xarfax already stated, if u accept every magic skill, when it is offered, you will FOR SURE get every magic skill offered until your hero reaches level 23. So from my point of view, the chance getting earth offered is 100%! (the only question will be, is the game over before your main reaches level 23?)
But on the other hand, there is NO 100% fact, your Alchemist will get log, tatcis, offense, archery offered. Am i wrong?
So if i know i get the magic skill i prefer most, offered on level 11 with 50% chance (3/6), and on level 17 with prolly 75% chance (3/4), i really donīt care about the chances on level 5.
Not sure if watermagic is that important for Tower anyway, coz nagas donīt need bless, neither genies, gremlins are mostly replaced with angels/wyverns or a second stack of genies, golems have a range of 4-5, mages 7-9. So only for titans it will be cool, but then a single bless is enough. I donīt consider spells like "clone" (you prolly donīt know whats in your guild at that point) to be the important thing for Tower to decide taking watermagic with main.
But perhaps i miss something here and u tell me why u would prefer water with Tower.
And i had to list all the skills i did, coz u just said "Demoniacs will have slightly better chances of getting might skills" and that is, if u compare all the important ones, slightly underrated.
So if i compare ALL the important skills with the 2 advantages Alchemists (or better say: Neela) have, i will choose Marius or Nymus over Neela nearly every time.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted April 12, 2006 11:11 PM |
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It is kind of difficult to have a conversation when you ignore what I am saying TWICE.
The chance to get all 5 of Archery, Armorer, Offense, Tactics and Log when you select all 4 magic schools is exactly 0.
Why do I want water with Tower? Because I don't really care if I get mass slowed in the final fight. And haste is pretty much the only allowed air spell that needs expert air.
Also, unless I lose most of my gremlins, I will not replace them. 1-2 base damage becomes 3 with expert bless. (Which gets an unmodified 50% damage increase from archery skill.) 300-500 grems with archery can do some SERIOUS damage. Titans is another unit which benefits quite a bit from the bless. Other units don't have a big damage range, but if you think about it, 4.5 damage from golems becomes 6 damage with expert bless. That's a 33% damage increase.
Anyways, I'll try to say it for the 3-rd time. The point is: if I get offered air with Neela, I can take air, if I get offered water, I can take water. This will increase my chances of getting earth next time. However, this is NOT the case with Demoniacs who will get fire magic offered most of the time. In that case you'll just have to select something else and have the same 3/10 chance to get earth next time.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 12, 2006 11:41 PM |
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Quote:
It is kind of difficult to have a conversation when you ignore what I am saying TWICE.
The chance to get all 5 of Archery, Armorer, Offense, Tactics and Log when you select all 4 magic schools is exactly 0.
Now you are getting childish Russ...but anyway.
Mixing 2 of my statements together into one and show my "bad math" is low-level arguing.
You chose the worst scenario for my case, but the best for your case. How "objective" is that?
Just tell me how often did u get offered earth as last magic skill with a Demoniac? On the other hand, how often did u get earth offered as first magic skill with Neela?
Why donīt u just try it with the editor?
Take Neela and Marius and place 22 trees of knowledge. Level them up and look at the final results. But iīm sure u will be fair and take the best skill for Marius aswell, not only for Neela...
I did that for nearly all hero classes already, coz i didnīt believe in the "skill chances" tables shown here and on other forums.
So what iīm doing here is just stating my experiences with those testings, and my bad experiences with Neela in many online games.
If your result will show completely different results, fine. Prolly i did something wrong then. But as far as i remember, i had never any Demoniac as main who had more than 1 bad skill, in opposit to many bad results with Neela.
Theoretical numbers are fine, practical experience is what i prefer.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Zsa
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2006 06:52 AM |
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I don't know where you get that impression angel. I get offered earth with neela quite a lot. I actually did your test, put a pan box with 50k exp, and pick skills that I would usually pick for my main.
Marius really has a big problem with his advanced armourer skill. I ended up like 5 times with either ballistics or resistance and I couldn't do anything - at least it's not navigation I say.
And in the test runs I have done (except 1) rougly 35-40, I never ended with neela without earth magic  .
No matter how you look at it, neela has a very high chance of ending up with earth.
It is also true that marius almost always ended up with earth magic as well but that's besides the point.
In only 2 tests did I end up with a bad skill for neela (scouting and misticism), while for marius only going from 3rd to fourth level gave me more bad choices.
What marius has going for him however is a higher chance than neela of ending up with offense and logistics.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 13, 2006 11:05 AM |
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Thx for that clarification Zsa, coz that is exactly my point. Neela has a better chance for earth, but Marius has better chances for ALL other skills. So if your Neela, as u stated, ends up with 1 bad skill, in reality there are already 2 (scholar from start). I also never think about getting a bad skill on level 3 offered with Tazar after he is expert armorer, coz i donīt care about this 1 bad skill. Chances for all the other good skills are high for him as beastmaster anyway.
But what i wanted to express is, i try to rely more on might skills than on magic skills anyway. You can never put all your bets on mass slow or mass haste, coz if u fight blackies or phoenixes (Archangels), these spells wonīt help ya that much, but tactcis, offense and similars do. Not to mention Red Orb anyway...
Neela is for sure NOT a bad or average hero. No armorer special hero could be classified like that in my eyes. But my experiences with her are quite bad, thatīs why i have many other heroes which i would prefer as main.
But we prolly drift too far away from our Twon rating it seems. Perhaps we could talk about the different classes in a different thread (i know there is a similar thread in the deeper chambers of the library though...)
[*offtopic*]
And Russ, u still owe me a 200% dwarven tunnels, Ivor vs. Gurnisson....how about that?..
[/*offtopic*]
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted April 13, 2006 07:02 PM |
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Quote:
You chose the worst scenario for my case, but the best for your case. How "objective" is that?
Talking about Neela getting one of 3 desired magic schools (there is 90% chance of getting those) is objective IMHO.
Talking about Demoniacs getting fire (40% chance of getting it) may not be as objective, but you'll get fire on level 5 quite often. Since you aren't likely to pick fire, it will have the same 40% chance to be offered again on level 11, etc. The chance of getting earth on level 11 will still be only 30%. Now - Neela has 60% chance of getting offered air or water (if she isn't lucky enough to have earth offered first). This means that on level 11 she will have 38% (if she picked water earlier) or even 50% (if she picked air) of getting earth. So, Demoniac's chances of getting earth early are not as good as Neela's and your chances of getting Earth + 1 of the 2 other desired magic schools are MUCH lower.
Now - about "useless" skills. We all agree that Archery, Offense, Armorer, Log and Tactics are the most desired non-magic skills. If you think about it, Neela comes with TWO of those (Armorer and Armorer ) she also has scholar as a bonus (which isn't anywhere near useless). So, she has 2 good skills + 1 average skill. Marius, on the other hand comes with 1 useful skill and 1 skill that's 100% useless for tower (Demon specialty).
Grand total:
Neela = 3 skill slots full, 2 useful, 1 average
Marius = 2 skill slots full, 1 useful, 1 useless
[OFF-TOPIC]
Sure! DT 200% is my favorite setting! Who am I? Ivor or Gurnisson?
[/OFF-TOPIC]
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted April 14, 2006 04:31 AM |
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The heroes that you should go for, are Sandro because he has the Sorcery skill, Neela as she is probably the best Tower hero that you can get, Orrin because for the Tower town there are 3 ranged attackers the Master Gremlins, Magi/Arch Magi, and the Titans.
Most other heroes that have Sorcery as a unique skill you should buy, because Tower is mainly about spells and Ranged attackers, and that is powerful combination.
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Zsa
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2006 06:21 AM |
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William, in 90%+ games, picking a magic hero as your main would kill you. Magic heroes suck compared to might heroes. It's been said before a lot of times.
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This thread is pages long: 
