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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 HoF Strategy: Playing Fortress Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 HoF Strategy: Playing Fortress Faction This thread is 13 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · «PREV / NEXT»
Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted January 05, 2008 08:08 PM

Recently I faced my friend, who is academy player - MMR is quite hard-hitter for dwarves. Your opinions about strategy against magic rush?

My 2 cents and some experience -

Your hero - You need to creep quickly, in order to obtain some crucial skills. Ingvar seems to be good choice, he can endure like noone else, but letīs say he is banned. Other choices could be Helmar, Karli and Erling. Erlings starts with Sorcery = Distraction or Counterspell? No, thank you. Distraction helps, but you will need another useful skills
, not something like Expert Sorcery. Counterspell is suicide, with Runemage knowledge. Helmar starts with Light Magic = possibility of getting Magic Immunity - but with magic guild lvl4. No way. So Karli seems to be best pick. Luck will be needed, and you can creep quite well - too bad, that survability of Spearwielders is pretty low, which hurt against Destructive.

First day, build tavern (in case I hasnīt been build already) and take look, who is your opponent. Possibilites are Jhora, Nur or Havez.
Buy second hero, take his troops and head for nearest orepit and sawmill. (If that hero was Svea, you can use her to defeat guards of saw/pit without losses.) - than try to get as many chests as you can + artifacts like Ring of Vitality/Boots of Magical protection can help alot. Secondary hero should get you Blackbears as soon as he can for effective creeping. Crystal mine should be your next objective, in case, that game will last for longer time.

You should try to get high level asap. Remember that even if your enemy needs many resources to build Magic Guild lvl5 + Library, he can reach you in few weeks. Battle in your town would be sweet, but anyway, you wonīt have Citadel (but bonus Shields comes handy anytime).

Possible Skills -
LUCK - This is obvious choice, because of Soldierīs Luck + Dwarven Luck (which can save you against Dark and Destructive).
DEFENSE - Preparation is no-brainer against magic, try to get Protection (Destructive) + Vitality (prolongs battle, you creature growth is nice anyway) + Evasion (Academy have many shooters)
ATTACK - You have to kill his troops anyway, and speeds up your creeping. Frenzy (High creature growth) + Tactics (hope that bears cross the field) + Power of Speed (helps, and I doubt that you will get Expert Light Magic, and Haste in guild everytime)
LIGHT MAGIC - Not a best choice for short game, but helps anyway. Mastar of Abjuration (Academy ranged units). Fire Resistance (in case you face Naathir or Armageddon). Supress Light sounds nice, too bad that wizards have so high knowledge (donīt take it against Nur). Eternal Light is nice to have too.
LEADERSHIP - No.
LOGISTICS - That will not save you, waste of points for short game.
ENLIGHTENMENT - I donīt think so.
WARMACHINES - Good choice for short battle, speeds up creeping. With Flaming Arrows and Runic machines, Ballista can play before Wizard and cause serious mess in his army. But - he have Saboteurs (shoot them first), can have Remote Control (watch ouf for Havez), and Wizard will surely take Cold Death. Maybe waste of points, maybe key to victory, thatīs question.
DESTRUCTIVE - Possibility, you will need some extra damage. I prefer to take it mostly for Erling. Master of Ice + Cold Death (Phoenix) can save your skin.
DARK - No.
SUMMONING - Seems crappy. But I won a game simply by using Elemental Balance + Banish.

Thatīs my point of view. Comments welcomed.

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Xathrax
Xathrax

Tavern Dweller
posted January 30, 2008 09:38 PM

After reading the comments I noticed everyone is mentioning how broken the dwarf loving hero(Ingvar) is. What's so increadible about him ? You shouldn't expect to get way over level 20 unless the map is gigantic and is +4 hp to such a low level creep really that great ? I mean their damage is kinda pathetic
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 30, 2008 09:55 PM

You are kidding right? Try them with battle frenzy and the insane bonuses. They never die and keep hitting good.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 30, 2008 10:08 PM

Better, add necklace of bloody claw and rune of berserking to what Elvin suggested

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Xathrax
Xathrax

Tavern Dweller
posted January 30, 2008 10:42 PM

But doesn't just picking battle frenzy and the other stuff make them just as good? The +2hp somewhere in the beggining is really such a big difference?
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Anakrom
Anakrom


Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
posted January 30, 2008 11:42 PM

Point is, that Ingvar starts with Defence + Vitality and three stacks of Defenders. Day 1 you buy secondary, upgrade to Shieldguards and you can creep better than any other hero. His main strength is imo large amount of strong creatures - I am always pretty happy, when I see him in tavern. In combination with Karli (my usual main) its 3 stacks of tier 1+2 - 4 stacks after two days of building. And sieging Ingvar is another  horrible story.
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silentQ
silentQ


Hired Hero
umm... yeah.... got milk?
posted January 31, 2008 05:45 PM

ingvar is the best creeper there is... as anakrom pointed out all you gotta do to creep is to update defenders. i take alternative upgrade due to defensive stance (getting 13 def for tier 1) and having few shooters  will clear any basic mines even on heroic (which me and my friends are playing now).

I'm actually playing on ultimate skill - just a matter of trying it once. dwarfs has an amazing ultimate ability - all lucky attacks negated and normal attacks are always unlucky - ultimate weapon against sylvan (as my friend's playing elves for ultimate as well).

In terms of skills i have defence, sum magic, dest magic, - all 3 for ultimate 2 of choice - luck (obviously) and enlightenment (as for ultimate skill we'll need at least lvl 30 considering that not all skills will be perks for the one - gonna need tonns of exp.)

i'll update this post with more details as the game goes by - will save replays of final battle whenever it'll happen

p.s. my opponents are sylvan Vinrael and academy Jhora - all playing for ultimate skill - so you can imagine academy with expert arties and all spells gonna be fun!

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 31, 2008 06:10 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 18:10, 31 Jan 2008.

Quote:
But doesn't just picking battle frenzy and the other stuff make them just as good? The +2hp somewhere in the beggining is really such a big difference?


they get +att/+def as well.

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted February 01, 2008 12:41 AM

My question is, does Necro stand a chance against Fortress?  With their crappy troops and Fortress' awesome anti-dark magic capabilities, what can Necro do in this matchup besides pray for Luck and their Ultimate?

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InfernoX880
InfernoX880


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 01, 2008 02:35 AM

Time for another one of my little essays. I will try to discuss as many aspects of Dwarven strategy as I possibly can, but I must say right off the start that there is no real great strategy for winning with Dwarves unless you are playing with large amounts of starting resources.

The most obvious thing that most people notice about the Dwarves is that they depend greatly on large amounts of crystals to develop. Things actually work out quite nice if you get lucky in a few situations. Firstly you will want that Crystal Cavern, but if you can't get it, the situation is not yet so bad. Because Dwarves can actually get the Resource Silo quite early on.

Why? Because most of their buildings cost very little gold. Even the powerful Fire Dragon dwelling costs a mere 10000 gold along with some other resources, all in all an excellent deal. While the creatures are a little more expensive, you will have plenty of gold to buy them as well because the Capitol is a mere 8000 reosurces and every setp along the way to the capitol is also somewhat cheaper. The only impediment comes when you need a Blacksmith.

Now there have been things about Dwarves and Siege Weapons going together quite well. I wouldn't wholly agree with that, because quite frankly the only thing most people get War Machines for is the Ballista and eventually the Catapult. But mainly the Ballista. And the Ballista depends on hero Attack and Knowledge. Dwarves aren't exactly great in either. I suppose if you are offered Ballista, it pays off to get it just so you can get rid of some neutral creatures. The real bonus comes if you can pull off a powerful Triple Flaming Ballista. The reason being you can then get Runic Machines, giving your powerful ballista an initiative boost!

But you will be behind for a good deal of the fight. Most of the early encounters against your enemy will happen at your own city. If you can pull of either a grand Ballista or some powerful Destructive spells, you shouldn't be too desperate, though don't exactly depend on the Dwarves to easily adapt to any situation. Perhaps the fact that you can use a Ballista for longer acclaims to its greatness, but all in all, you'll get the same effect from a well played Fireball spell.

The buildup is somewhat poor. You'll start with Defenders. Nice. With an extra hero from the Tavern you can sometimes get near 100 on day 2. The Spearwielders are somewhat pathetic but they are ranged. The grand bonus comes in with Whitebear Riders. Their Bear Roar ability will make enemy neutral creatures fall. And it triggers quite often too. So you have the most powerful buildup of Tiers 1-3. If only that was it. But you must struggle through 4 more tiers.

The Tier 4 Berserkers and Battleragers are useless in almost any situation until you can effectively use Runes and Spells. The Priests, Thanes and Fire Dragons provide a dilema. The good new is if you built a Resource Silo and got a Crystal Cavern you should have enough for Priests and within a few days the Fire Dragon. But even this is greatly delayed and you still lack two tiers. Wait for your Crystals to rise high, or if they were high already, maybe you chose Thanes over Priests. One thing you must bear in mind though is that it is not wise to put off an inexpensive Tier 7 when it is placed in front of you. As soon as you can get them, get them, because Fire Dragons are truly worth it, especially when they come in small groups of 5 or 6.

Creeping is difficult if the Random Generator put you up against many ranged units. If not, the Defenders do their job (killing) quite well. The Whitebear Riders only reinforce this. The Spearwielders provide the occasional "Hooray" but nothing too dramatic. If you manage to get both Ballista and Destructive Magic, you should be fine. If you get so lucky as to get Logistics, which seriously needs to be made easier to get, the game becomes much easier. MUCH easier. You will be surprised how little a Dwarf can do in one turn. Logistics and everything that adds to movement helps out a lot.

So finally I guess I'll move into some other less crucial things that seem more crucial. The focal point is you have a problem on Heroic difficulty (which is what this review is based mostly on) because if you want Priests, you need Runic Shrine, which means you need one extra unit of each resource. That means every mine or good luck with loose resources.

Recommended heroes include Erling, because he has 1 ranged Tier 5 unit that he begins with that has a lot of health. Ingvar, because he adds greatly to your supply of Defenders (who are by the way a lot better when upgraded). Helmar, because his Righteous Might spell will greatly increase the damage output of those defensive units in the early game and if his ability is combined with say Divine Strength...you've got something good coming your way. I'm not too sure about the rest, but those are the three I stick to and hope to get two of those three on Day 2 or 3 when I get the Tavern.

Other things...well, they specialize in Destructive Magic quite nicely. You'll find yourself building up the Mage Guild to quench your powerhungry needs at better spells. If you have adequate Mana, Fireball is great, as is Lightning Bolt. but you shouldn't go beyond Level 3 spells until the later game.

Any questions?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted February 01, 2008 09:02 AM
Edited by Elvin at 09:03, 01 Feb 2008.

Quote:
My question is, does Necro stand a chance against Fortress?  With their crappy troops and Fortress' awesome anti-dark magic capabilities, what can Necro do in this matchup besides pray for Luck and their Ultimate?

Break faster and kick their dwarven behinds as if nothing happened? This has happened with me because necro is a faster faction and I also did not get cleansing OR rune of exorcism which would not have helped against puppet anyway. My thanes used my own runes and gave me trouble and I kept getting weakened. Also consider a summoned phoenix while at that. No, fortress will be trouble only after some time and necro will have its chance. In that game I even had build thanes and dragons week 2 so it's not as if I did not have units. That was back in HoF where motn was much better but necro can still break faster than fortress and the core gameplay in creeping has not changed remarkably.

@InfernoX880
I still do not see why anyone would build priests unless in a short game. Not as rune friendly nor as useful as thanes. I suppose I would pick warmachines and destructive in a rush game but 4500 for the ballista is a lot - though a runic flaming ballista is a sure way to deal with ranged enemies, against sylvan you can count on taking his hunters or druids before they act.

Sure some of their buildings are cheaper but it's not as if you'll swim in money either because you DO need to hire unlike some other factions.

Whitebear riders are good but there are still many units immune to fear to use them in creeping. Paw strike is more reliable.

And as aforementioned ranged creeps are no trouble whether you use shieldguards with rune of charge or bears with tactics or even shieldgaurs defending while you fling spells/shoot with ballista. You are in a vastly superior position compared to others when it comes to ranged.
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Drunk_Lord
Drunk_Lord


Known Hero
very happy hero :)
posted February 01, 2008 09:38 AM

Quote:

Break faster and kick their dwarven behinds as if nothing happened? .

Yeah necro are kings of that And imagine what mass weakness and suffering will do to this not-so-strong-in-attack guys and when u add summoning necro has very good earlygame and good midgame, lol...
Elvin has the the point
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InfernoX880
InfernoX880


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 01, 2008 09:11 PM

The Priests are an interesting unit, and become more devastating when upgraded. Their unupgraded version boats fair HP and can pack quite a punch in two weeks growth.

The Ballista is good, but one problem is that Dwarves will not have a particularly impressive use of it by the late game. Their inability to stuck to specialized stats makes the Ballista a chance every time.

As for gold, I don't know if you've experienced this, but when I play with Dwarves, gold is literally, with no jokes, or strings attatched, the least of my worries.

Thanes are definetly good, but 20 Crystals is a lot. Unless you manage to get both Crystal Cavern and Resrouce Silo early, you will have to spend some time waiting for their dwelling.

As for ranged units, it is amazing how many times you come across the Hunter family. All three Hunters pack quite a punch and will have you counting losses before you win. Still, a well placed Rune of Charge takes care of that.

Whitebear Riders do not even need the Bear Roar ability, their high speed, and fair stats make them the greatest Tier 3, with the exception of maybe the Hunters, who are way weaker but have impressive ranged capabilities.

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DarkShadow
DarkShadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted February 01, 2008 09:14 PM

priests=nononononono!too much resources,unless XXXXXXXXXL and has crystals worth of fort knox dont bother.

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InfernoX880
InfernoX880


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 01, 2008 09:53 PM

Hey wow, isn't that what I pointed out? Priests do not equal a huge no, for few reasons. First off, Crystals are a pain. Priests are a small door out of that pain. Because it's only 5 crystals. If you got lucky with loose resources, you should be able to get Priests and Fire Dragons within a short time of each other.

Does that mean they are great? No. It means they are mdeiocre and you'll get your money's worth. But if you get lucky with Crystals, go with Thanes instead.

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DarkShadow
DarkShadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted February 01, 2008 10:12 PM

but unupergraded priest sux!thats 10 crystals and gems in total!

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silentQ
silentQ


Hired Hero
umm... yeah.... got milk?
posted February 02, 2008 07:34 PM

i disagree, priests are a must in a late game...
they are always underestimated... great casters and shooters all together with fair stats.
i had 2 stacks with different upgrade against sylvan - everything died but them... only lost a few... great area spells plus cross shot - awesome thing.

which upgrade would you go with for thanes? i tried alt - imho not as great as flame lords.... opinions?

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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted February 03, 2008 12:24 AM

Quote:
which upgrade would you go with for thanes? i tried alt - imho not as great as flame lords.... opinions?


I like the look of the flame lords but thunder thanes are much better. Storm strike and storm bolt can damage nearby creatures and that's just better (flamewave rarely works in my experience). With thunder thanes what you see in the stats isn't what you get, you can easily double the damage (and it gets better if several stacks are nearby).

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InfernoX880
InfernoX880


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 03, 2008 02:58 AM

Though the activated ability of the Firelords is amazing, the Thunder Thanes are better. With the upgraded Priests, you can use either Fireball or Firewall, and combined with the Mark of Fire set by the Flamelord, you can easily do high damage. The fact that Thunder Thanes hit multiple units makes them better though.

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sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
posted February 03, 2008 04:11 AM

Concerning Thunder Thanes -VS- Flame Lords-

Both of them have something going for them. Thunder Thanes have the Storm Striking ability plus Storm Bolt. Furthermore, a little known fact is that they themselves are immune to Storm Strike and other Lighting spells (chain lighting = ). Their attack is offset to give Storm Strike balance ( a drop of 12 damage min/max). Let it also be pointed out that Storm Strike is not calculated into the damage under the ATB bar, so you'll have to guess the power of the extra storm damage.
Flame Lords have a set damage (21- 26), which is average for their tier. Their Fire Bolt sets the Mark of Fire on the target and deals 120% of normal damage. That gives Fireballs and Meteors more damage to them. Flamewave also triggers less often, but is stronger when it goes off (with the right attack position). With Soldier's Luck, it is better than Storm Strike, as it arcs its damage equally, then decreases, whereas Storm Strike decreases its damaged upon reaching its second target.
Furthermore, the Thanes are slower than the Lords, but have more attack but not defense. Thunder Thanes are at times better than Flame Lords and vice-versa.
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