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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 13, 2007 02:11 PM |
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Quote:
It is clearly that Plague Zombies are better because they are more expensive and strangely they have the same growth. 5 HP is really MUCH when we're talking about Low level creatures.
It's 4 HP. 
And except of the HP, the Horned Overseer is better on all the categories.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 13, 2007 02:13 PM |
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oh uhm.. yeah
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 13, 2007 02:21 PM |
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its not just 4 hp , its 30% hp more 
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 13, 2007 02:23 PM |
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feluniozbunio: Exactly 
that's the real score, believe me 
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted March 13, 2007 06:18 PM |
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Plague zombies are much better than horned overseers. The weakening strike is a VERY strong ability in long battles. It is especially great when splitting the zombies into multiple stacks and hitting high level units. I like to use a single zombie in one stack to waste the retaliation of a tough stack (like Angels), then hit the Angels with two or three more stacks of zombies. With slow, the enemy doesn't have such a huge initiative over the zombies anyway. So basically they are used to take hits and weaken the enemy. The other units do the real damage.
The combination of wraiths and plague zombies is incredible. Weaken, slow (you SHOULD have slow as necro), and if the enemy casts haste, no big deal. The wraiths can do a harmful touch to remove it.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 13, 2007 08:51 PM |
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Quote:
Plague zombies are much better than horned overseers. The weakening strike is a VERY strong ability in long battles. It is especially great when splitting the zombies into multiple stacks and hitting high level units. I like to use a single zombie in one stack to waste the retaliation of a tough stack (like Angels), then hit the Angels with two or three more stacks of zombies. With slow, the enemy doesn't have such a huge initiative over the zombies anyway. So basically they are used to take hits and weaken the enemy. The other units do the real damage.
The combination of wraiths and plague zombies is incredible. Weaken, slow (you SHOULD have slow as necro), and if the enemy casts haste, no big deal. The wraiths can do a harmful touch to remove it.
They have only 7 initiative and speed 4, that's ridiculous.
Not that the Horned Overseers are great, but 8 initiative and speed 5 are big differnce.
In the Necropolis campaign, I didn't use much the Zombies. They are just too slow, and play so rarely. I find them, more then anything else, unuseful.
Sorry, ZombieLord.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 13, 2007 08:59 PM |
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Quote:
They have only 7 initiative and speed 4, that's ridiculous.
Not that the Horned Overseers are great, but 8 initiative and speed 5 are big differnce.
In the Necropolis campaign, I didn't use much the Zombies. They are just too slow, and play so rarely. I find them, more then anything else, unuseful.
Sorry, ZombieLord.
Heh you just:
Do not play Necro
Can not play Necro
Sorry, GLord
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 13, 2007 11:58 PM |
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Edited by executor at 00:04, 14 Mar 2007.
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Quote:
well you are definetly wrong. This numbers are with x not +. So the Sylvan damage could be 450% with elven luck and avenger.
And yoe you can relay on such combo, because it will trigger 25% when you attack favorite enemy and already have 5 luck. In 50% you will get only one of the two bonuses na 25% to gain nothing. IMO this is a gamebreaker if you have some units ofcourse.
@Hellwitch:
I indicate that you think that every point of luck gives you +10% chance for lucky strike... . Are you trying to fool us all or just dreaming? And with expert luck you have +3 luck, not +5. Other buffs are not granted by hero. And OK ,I made a slight miscalculation(was after 3,5 beers ), but corrected doesn't look better. And you get +5% chance of lucky strike (proven by observations and common sense). Then let's calculate the expected value of additional damage against fav.enemy with expert luck(+3 luck) and +10% chance for fav.en hit from building. Let's see(that's no magic, just pure, simple mathematics ):
7,5% for both lucky strike and fav.en(350% ADDITIONAL dmg) - 0,075*350;
7,5% for lucky stike but no fev.en(125% additional dmg) - 0,075*125;
42,5% for fav.en but no lucky strike(100% additional dmg) - 0,425*100;
42,5% for nothing - 0,425*0;
Summing these up we get expected value of bonus dmg of +78,125%.
And with single luck you get expected value of +18,75% dmg (on Ranger, others 15%).
And think: If each +1 to luck gave 10% chance of +100% dmg, then expected value of lucky srikes would be +30% to dmg with expert luck. TWICE better than attack. This would be a great violation to skill balance - nobody would bother with attack, save for those who want power of speed or tactics, or maybe retribution. This game's designers CAN THINK AND CALCULATE and did great work balancing the game(but it is a bit unbalanced still - but nobody is perfect(call me nobody just kidding)), so it could not happen that they allowed such an overpowered skill to be there... Just look how they nerfed necromancy in 1.41. Or enlightment in 1.4(not a big change here, but relevant).
And this discussion is about skills not creatures so it should have taken place eslewhere... sorry for that.
@TheDeath:
Thank you for supporting my point of view on "How we can judge which creature is better than other".
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted March 14, 2007 02:23 AM |
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Edited by dfortae at 02:42, 14 Mar 2007.
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Quote:
They have only 7 initiative and speed 4, that's ridiculous.
Not that the Horned Overseers are great, but 8 initiative and speed 5 are big differnce.
In the Necropolis campaign, I didn't use much the Zombies. They are just too slow, and play so rarely. I find them, more then anything else, unuseful.
Sorry, ZombieLord.
Decreasing a unit's attack and defense by 2 per hit means a loss of damage and hit points (from physical attacks). If you get hit 2-4 times, you've lost a good amount of power. It is very easy to hit a few times in a battle, especially if you have a big stack of zombies (very likely).
The 1 extra initiative from the horned overseers is taken away effectively from just 1 hit from a plague zombie (reducing attack and defense by 2). Then the rest of the battle just turns in the zombie's favor and gets more and more in the zombie's favor.
Again, they are much better than overseers...
Edit:
I put it to the test several times. I had Deleb fight Orson (put both on computer control). I killed all units except about 90 Plague Zombies and 90 Horned Overseers.
Orson specializes with Zombies, but Deleb has a MUCH higher attack:
Orson - 3 Attack, 8 Defense
Deleb - 13 Attack, 5 Defense
Every time Orson would win with about 25-30 Plague Zombies left. The weakening strike, along with the toughness of the zombies makes them superior.
One funny thing I did notice was the plague zombie's animation for the green cloud appears when hitting the ballista, but it doesn't really reduce the attack and defense of it. I had to destroy the ballista (both of them) so the computer wouldn't get an unfair advantage (in Deleb's favor of course).
Try it yourself, the zombies will always win. Oh, and this is even with the huge morale bonus of Deleb as well.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 14, 2007 07:40 AM |
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You shouldn't really use specialists in such battles, it makes it a bit unfair.
Zombies aren't tougher that horned overseers, if that's waht you meant: they have the same 67% survivability! But, the 16 def you had due to specialist and 0 def for overseers due to the special and naturally low def made it obvious who would win. I wouldn't do such tests, for they don't prove much.
Both of these units are meant to tank, not attack, and both do it well. Offensively, they are just a waste, being slow, low init and dealing pathetic damage per strike. And I'm surprised you find zombies' special that good. My battles end usually before they can use it more than a few times, and a few times is not enough to make it useful.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 14, 2007 08:13 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
They have only 7 initiative and speed 4, that's ridiculous.
Not that the Horned Overseers are great, but 8 initiative and speed 5 are big differnce.
In the Necropolis campaign, I didn't use much the Zombies. They are just too slow, and play so rarely. I find them, more then anything else, unuseful.
Sorry, ZombieLord.
Heh you just:
Do not play Necro
Can not play Necro
Sorry, GLord
I can play Necro
Zombies are bahh.
(Becuase all the neutral Undead creatures join Markal, I used to swich the Zombies for Death Knight, much more useful )
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 14, 2007 08:20 AM |
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Quote:
You shouldn't really use specialists in such battles, it makes it a bit unfair.
Zombies aren't tougher that horned overseers, if that's waht you meant: they have the same 67% survivability! But, the 16 def you had due to specialist and 0 def for overseers due to the special and naturally low def made it obvious who would win. I wouldn't do such tests, for they don't prove much.
Both of these units are meant to tank, not attack, and both do it well. Offensively, they are just a waste, being slow, low init and dealing pathetic damage per strike. And I'm surprised you find zombies' special that good. My battles end usually before they can use it more than a few times, and a few times is not enough to make it useful.
You are totally right.
Defortae: There's a different intention to the Horned Overseer's speciality: to hit many creatures at once.
You are giving an obvious adventage to the Plague Zombies.
It's like doing 1v1 battle of Black Drgon against Archangel, with empty battlefield except of them.
It's a clear adventage to the Black Dragon, becuase the Archangel won't be able to ressurect allies.
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted March 14, 2007 11:52 PM |
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No, I made it EASY on the overseers. I could have split both into 2 or 3 groups and that would have made it even worse. Yes, the overseers have the ability to hit multiple units around them, but that is rare. If someone allows you to do that, they suck.
You are right about the specialist. But remember, I was using Deleb. High attack and VERY high morale.
The zombies are still best in my opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Sprite_master
Hired Hero
war dancer
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posted March 15, 2007 04:51 AM |
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necro are the waekest. mum and i played and she had necro. i defeated her with sylvan
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Sprite_master
Hired Hero
war dancer
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posted March 15, 2007 04:55 AM |
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 16, 2007 02:52 PM |
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Well, my question is what is the worst creature of each tier.
I'm sure that you'll agree that not all the undead creature are the worst in their tiers. 
For example: Ghosts, Vampires and Liches are great.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 16, 2007 03:01 PM |
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Quote:
I indicate that you think that every point of luck gives you +10% chance for lucky strike.... Are you trying to fool us all or just dreaming? And with expert luck you have +3 luck, not +5. Other buffs are not granted by hero. And OK ,I made a slight miscalculation(was after 3,5 beers ), but corrected doesn't look better. And you get +5% chance of lucky strike (proven by observations and common sense)
I'm sorry to disappoint you here but 1 Luck indeed gives +10% chance to do a lucky hit. I don't get it why you say it's proven that it's 5% but you are wrong. Just check the manual
And no, in my games, 5 luck happens even more than 50% so I think we should rely on what it says on the manual and not on our experience
Now, about the Zombies: well, Horned Overseers have only 14% more initiative and 25% more speed and a little more attack and defense. While the Zombie has 30% more Hit Points and a 80% greater ability
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Asheron
Famous Hero
Ancient
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posted March 16, 2007 03:03 PM |
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Quote:
For example: Ghosts, Vampires and Liches are great.
Dont forget skeletons...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 16, 2007 05:27 PM |
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Yes, to avoid any confusion here, then I must cut in and support ZombieLord and Hellwitch: Luck does indeed provide a 10 % change for Good Luck for each point of Luck modifier. There is a reason it's considered the best skill in the game ...
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 16, 2007 06:40 PM |
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mainly because it multiplies every other modifier, in other words it affects total damage. If it was like H3 one, which affected ONLY the dam value of the creature without taking ATT, offense etc. into consideration, it would be useful mainly for warlocks, and less for other heroes.
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This thread is pages long: 
