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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 19, 2007 04:45 PM |
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Personally I think we need to reduce the damage bonus, it's too high. Maybe with a +50% damage bonus?
The thing with "less chances" just increases "luckness" even more -- i.e even more impredictable and (when it triggers) you can say how "lucky" you were. In short, it will make the skill very unpredictable which means not many will invest in it (they want predictable battles though).
It's analogous to making the Black Dragon doing 1-115 damage (instead of 45-70). Both have the same average, but the first one is definetely more "random-based" -- i.e you cannot but hope for a good damage (it can come up with 1 can you imagine?).
So nerfing the damage bonus should be taken into consideration in my opinion.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted March 19, 2007 04:50 PM |
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yes , but expert luck only provides +30% more dmg... 8% , 7% or even 6.5% / 1 luck seem to be better solutions ... Anyway I don't think the luck skill(+3 luck) is overpowered right now ...its the luck artifacts and map locations that make it go overboard.
+30% more dmg on average isn't that much ... it is the same as defense, which is a lot more reliable, but doesn't work for shooters. Also Enlightment gives huge boost , more than 30% to a warlock's SP , or Ranger's defense etc. so that would be overpowered too . If you think like this , then all the skills are overpowered except attack , but attack has really nice abilities , so woow , this one is overpowered too 
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 19, 2007 05:11 PM |
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Quote:
As a less radical change, one could simply reduce the chance from 10 % to 8 %, so that +3 corresponds to 24 % of triggering, or +24 % damage. That would set Luck on par with Attack, in terms of damage bonus.
Ekhmmm...... attack gives +15% dmg, and only melee... If you want them on paar, 5% per luck is needed (for +15% bonus)... And 10% with +2 luck is not that rarely - once per 10 hits.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 19, 2007 05:14 PM |
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Quote:
Ekhmmm...... attack gives +15% dmg
It's 20% now.
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 19, 2007 05:23 PM |
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OK I'm not up to date with 1.41 and 2.1. But still it's doesn't affect shooters so +7% or +7,5% would do nicely.
And to those who wanted the bonus, not chance, to be lower... well luck is luck, it MUST be much of a random, you never now when it will shine upon you .
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 19, 2007 05:33 PM |
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Quote:
And to those who wanted the bonus, not chance, to be lower... well luck is luck, it MUST be much of a random, you never now when it will shine upon you .
That's why it's imbalanced, really
How "balanced" is the skill "Gives 5% chance of completely destroying an enemy army at the beginning of battle"? It's a gamble, not a strategy 
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 19, 2007 05:44 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
And to those who wanted the bonus, not chance, to be lower... well luck is luck, it MUST be much of a random, you never now when it will shine upon you .
That's why it's imbalanced, really
How "balanced" is the skill "Gives 5% chance of completely destroying an enemy army at the beginning of battle"? It's a gamble, not a strategy
But if there is a skill called 'LUCK', then it must be random... then it would be no luck at all... rather second attack.
And a skill '5% of completely destroying enemy army' would not be gambling only, but also imbalanced, as it's expected value would be, if not infinity, veeeeeeeeeery high .
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Sprite_master
Hired Hero
war dancer
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posted March 19, 2007 10:42 PM |
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EVERY MONSTER HAS IT'S OWN QUALITYS. THEY ARE ALL STRONG.
iv proved my point
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sylvan's angle
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 01:03 AM |
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Edited by dfortae at 01:16, 20 Mar 2007.
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Quote:
And how many units benefit from morale ate very faction? Casters and imperials. Ain't much.
I'd say both of those effects are extremely welcome to happen, and the discussion which is better is pointless.
Yeah, it is pointless because everyone has their opinion.
It is also a huge bonus with movement. It doubles the amount you can move in a period of time. Especially useful for units with limited movement rate. It also allows a unit to reach you that COULDN'T have before (sprite vs. zombie). It can make you complete loose a battle if you were messing around with movement plays.
Also, a unit that has been hastened and then receives morale bonus gets even more bonus out of the haste. If you play duel, look at the mass hastened blood furies. Morale is high and initiative is crazy. They do WAY more than if they just had luck. This leads me to ANOTHER usage. The lizard bite from the riders. Place a stack of 20-40 next to an enemy, and watch how many extra attacks you get with morale bonus.
Look at the special attack's and rune uses for the dwarves. Being able to have a Thane hit a chain of units several times in a short period of time is better than luck. It also means they get to use runes that protect more often (like the elemental immunity one that is permanent for the battle).
One final one. Assassins that get to attack twice as quickly get more poison damage spread across units. Luck doesn't affect it at all, morale does.
Believe me, there are a LOT of uses for morale that outweigh luck. You guys just don't think of them.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 20, 2007 02:50 AM |
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But to be fair, in all these "lots of usages" you speak about, you mention Lizard Bite, Thanes and Assassins. Even if we add to these Griffins and Casters, it's still only a fraction of the available units in the game, not to mention the fact that you only rarely will find a unit like the Assassin to be game deciding (even with double poison damage).
It's not that I say Morale is bad. Morale is good, especially Good Morale ... ehm, yes, it's good, but as it is now, Luck is the more craved of the two, especially when it comes to the skill - most players will not hescitate taking the Luck skill when offered, but how many will jump for the Leadership skill?
There are always different ways to play, and one can argue that some abilities has to be stronger than others. None-the-less, on the bottom line, it would be nice if all abilities were about the same, so that you could choose depending on you way of playing, the circumstances on the map, your faction, etc. Currently, that's not quite the case - Luck will almost always be a good choice, and Leadership almost never. That seems to call for some sort of modification of the Luck/Morale system.
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What will happen now?
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted March 20, 2007 03:24 AM |
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Personally I think that it'd be fine if you just allowed luck and morale to go up to +whatever, but lowered the % chance per point a little bit, say to 8%. It'd be quite hard to get REALLY high values in most circumstances, but it would make leadership a more viable skill choice relative to luck, and mean you don't waste points of morale/luck under certain circumstances. You don't waste spellpower, attack, defence or knowledge do you? So why luck and morale?
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Sprite_master
Hired Hero
war dancer
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posted March 20, 2007 04:44 AM |
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hmmmmmmmmmm no one listens to me
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sylvan's angle
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted March 20, 2007 05:17 AM |
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That's because you didn't post an argument or 'prove your point' at all... When you do that people will listen to you.
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted March 20, 2007 05:34 AM |
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I find leadership quite nice. The morale boost is fine as dfortae points out...and diplomacy is excellent...talk numbers all you want "it's only 10%" but the truth is more things join me when I have it and that can be crucial.
Actually, it's negative in the case of the griffins...I've carefully plotted where a unit will move to, I dive on that square, and the griffin comes down before the unit moves and then gets wacked.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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Sprite_master
Hired Hero
war dancer
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posted March 20, 2007 06:35 AM |
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i did. i said that all units have there own qualitys and they are ALL strong. im not singaling any levle weakest creature. but if you want something realy useful, play inferno, upgrade gating, have basic summoning magic and also have phantom forces. phantom anything and the phantoms can use gating. its truly evil
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sylvan's angle
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 09:51 AM |
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Quote:
Also, a unit that has been hastened and then receives morale bonus gets even more bonus out of the haste. If you play duel, look at the mass hastened blood furies. Morale is high and initiative is crazy. They do WAY more than if they just had luck. This leads me to ANOTHER usage. The lizard bite from the riders. Place a stack of 20-40 next to an enemy, and watch how many extra attacks you get with morale bonus.
Duel mode only. In normal game, even if they survive the wicked focus on them (right after the furies are dead), there are still ways to kill them easily. Against factions that use dark magic, they WILL get puppetmastered and used to kill the hydras. Or, frenzied. Whatever. Melee dungeon isn't really impressive.
Quote:
Look at the special attack's and rune uses for the dwarves. Being able to have a Thane hit a chain of units several times in a short period of time is better than luck. It also means they get to use runes that protect more often (like the elemental immunity one that is permanent for the battle).
Runes are great indeed! Elemental immunity rune for every creature and there are chances that warlocks will always deal half damage with their main spells.. By the way, anyone knows what will happen if the spell is casted with expert irr. magic on creature with 100% golem-type resistance and gets additionaly "evaded" (resisted) ? Is it 25% damage via irr.magic then?
Quote:
Believe me, there are a LOT of uses for morale that outweigh luck. You guys just don't think of them.
Still, why to bother which is better? Use them both! 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 20, 2007 09:52 AM |
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You proved nothing really and at any rate you are wrong. A bad combination.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 20, 2007 01:01 PM |
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Quote:
Also, a unit that has been hastened and then receives morale bonus gets even more bonus out of the haste. If you play duel, look at the mass hastened blood furies. Morale is high and initiative is crazy. They do WAY more than if they just had luck. This leads me to ANOTHER usage. The lizard bite from the riders. Place a stack of 20-40 next to an enemy, and watch how many extra attacks you get with morale bonus.
What about Mass Hastened Blood Furies doing double damage? Come on, high initiative also favors luck because you attack more -> more chance for luck to trigger.
I think for Furies it is clearly better Luck than Morale because they reach anything in one turn anyway, no need for 'higher speed with Morale'. But Morale IS better for casters and such, but anyway, double effect from luck is too high. As I said, it should be 66% (and maybe Morale should be 40% increase to ATB...)
I don't like the idea of reducing the chances... In some games it will still trigger all the time and you'd say: "I was lucky". You were lucky indeed, but was it fun? Come on, no need to introduce a risk in this game like: "I hope I'm not very lucky, it will destroy the fun"
And I disagree completely about Luck being not reliable and that it should have a higher bonus than Attack. What does that mean? That it triggers on a weak stack (1 Peasant)? How about triggering on a strong stack (100 Black Dragons)? I think, even if Luck was as strong as Attack (giving +20% average damage) it WILL STILL be better when it triggers on 100 Black Dragons and not on the other stacks, BUT it will be weaker when it triggers on 1 Peasant. I mean, look here:
For the following info, I assume Luck is as good as attack, i.e. it gives +20% average damage (much like +20% chances to trigger at Expert Luck)
BEST SITUATION (having Luck, triggering on 100 Black Dragons)
+100% damage to 100 Black Dragons
+0% damage to 1 Peasant and other stacks...
MEDIUM SITUATION (having Attack)
+20% damage to 100 Black Dragons
+20% damage to 1 Peasant and other stacks...
WORST SITUATION (having Luck, triggering on 1 Peasant)
+0% damage to 100 Black Dragons
+100% damage to 1 Peasant and other stacks
So you see? Luck is unreliable but this makes it either better or weaker than Attack. It DOES NOT MEAN IT'S ALWAYS WEAKER, as Luck triggering on 100 Black Dragons and not on your other stacks (20%) will clearly be MUCH BETTER than +20% damage on all of your stacks. Luck is unreliable, but this does not make it weaker nor stronger
I also disagree about the abilities of the skills... they should be independent (i.e. not strong skill because of weak abilities or vice versa). The abilities and skills should both be balanced and medium, not one strong to compensate for the other's weakness. It's not Leadership's fault Nival implemented weak abilities.
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 08:18 PM |
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Edited by dfortae at 20:20, 20 Mar 2007.
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But to be fair, in all these "lots of usages" you speak about, you mention Lizard Bite, Thanes and Assassins. Even if we add to these Griffins and Casters, it's still only a fraction of the available units in the game, not to mention the fact that you only rarely will find a unit like the Assassin to be game deciding (even with double poison damage).
I just named a few. I thought everyone would realize there are many more and could come up with some themselves. I guess people can't do that.
I'll lay them out for you (ANY special):
Gating
Bash
Battle Dive
ANY Caster
Lay Hands
Resurrection
Explosion
Hell Fire
Fear Attack
Vorpal Blades
Summon Pit Lords
Weakening Strike
Mana Drain
Harm Touch
Cursing Attack
Poison
Lizard Bite
Regeneration
Whip Strike
Repair
Dash
Call Lightning
Warding Arrows
Mana Feed
Blinding Attack
Entangling Roots
Fire Shield (attacking different melee enemies so they each take a hit from the fire shield)
All runes
Crippling Wound
Paw Strike
Mark of Fire
Storm Strike
One final disadvantage to luck. You can "overkill" a stack of units (wasting damage). I know it happens to us all a lot. With morale, you would have just killed them, but could choose to them attack ANOTHER thus saving your "wasted" damage.
You keep your luck... I'll keep my morale... Hopefully NOW you will see how it affects almost every army very much. But if not, that's your right to think otherwise. I'll keep on blinding, stunning, warding, bashing, etc...
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 08:21 PM |
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Quote:
Still, why to bother which is better? Use them both!
Yes, I agree! Both of them is best! But if I HAD to choose, I'd pick leadership first. No doubt.
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