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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2008 05:50 PM |
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Edited by okrane at 17:53, 11 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
Okrane, why do you keep playing the game? You're right on every aspect. Seems that no matter how many people tell you that you're wrong, it doesnt matter...
Actually it's mostly you who tells me that, and I play it, maybe maybe I can convince myself that I am wrong.
But for the sake of the arguement, as a Dungeon player, please admit that you are somewhat dissapointed when you get Chain Lightning instead of Meteor Shower.
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted March 11, 2008 05:52 PM |
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Quote:
Faiz vs Nur
Alastor vs Deleb
Uh, Faiz's Vulnerability is actually really useful, and it isn't fueled by spellpower. If the lack of Sorcery is such a concern, then it shouldn't bee too unreasonable to expect to see basic Sorcery offered within the first 10 levels.
As for Alastor vs. Deleb, Alastor has a much better end game against spellcaster than Deleb does. His power of Swift Mind/Mass Confusion/Counterspell creates the perfect lock on enemy spellcasters. As for creeping, I've found creeping with his dark to be nearly as effective as Deleb's War Machines. Don't agree? Combine Mana Regeneration with Consume Corpse and you can be casting Dark all day long.
No comment on the others. Talanar and Svea suck. Undecided about Kilghan.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 11, 2008 06:00 PM |
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Quote:
I mean, it took 21 patches to balance Warcraft 3
It took 21 patches to turn w3 from extremely imbalanced to playable, but certain things, like human tank&tower strategy, are still a joke. That's why 22th patch is in development. All the w3 community has high hopes for 1.22.
Quote:
The problem is not that it functions as Rock-scissors-paper
It is. In my opinion, rock-paper-scissors system is the toughest to balance up. Blizzard' games are not the only example - see C&C3. The idea that unit A counters B, B counters C and C counters A works fine on paper, but then you realize that A+B is totally unbeatable and makes C useless. You buff C to be more useful, but that makes B+C the new dominant strategy and A is left behind. ANd that is just a extremely oversimplified situation with three things to balance out. What if you have countless units and factors to balance? A+F+M proves unbeatable, so you nerf M and buff C, but then B+Y is discovered and it goes on and on. That's how w3 works. And that's why rock-scissors-paper is failing each time it's used in a game. Starcraft is way more balanced because it never depended on specialized counter-units. Sure you have to do antiair against air, but those are the basics. In w3, you are forced to use certain unit as certain counter. And some combos are just superior to other.
I still love w3, btw. But I can't resist to point the obvious flaw of the counter-system the game tries to force upon you. It never works. It's lovely, but it doesn't work, that is 
SC2 will be heavily counter-oriented game. That means a lot of challenge to blizzard, but the game is simplified (no heroes) compared to w3, and they have some experience after struggling to make w3 balanced for so long. So it may not be that bad after all.
On the other hand, the lack of the counter-system turns the game into another "mass X unit" game. So paper-rock-scissors is like democracy. It's the worst system except all others that have been tried.*
*© by Winston Churchill 
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2008 06:13 PM |
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nice post 
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2008 06:18 PM |
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@Doomforge
great post 
I agree, mass X units is the worst of all.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 11, 2008 08:00 PM |
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[quote
But for the sake of the arguement, as a Dungeon player, please admit that you are somewhat dissapointed when you get Chain Lightning instead of Meteor Shower.
I admit that im dissapointed if i get chain lightning and no master. And chain lightning is sometimes better than meteor for a might dungeon.
Im not the only one that tells you all heroes are good, elit told you, teacher told you, maybe others too that i cant remember.
Try Kythra with Sorcery, Empathy, Enlightenment, Destruction and you choose from light or logistics and then tell me she's a sucky hero.
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted March 11, 2008 08:04 PM |
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Kythra with Empathy is so wtfpwnj00 awesome it isn't even fair. Now minos probably don't fit into many Dungeoneers' creeping strategies but for a final battle, the alt upgrades with her are capable of just wrecking whatever they go after.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 11, 2008 08:32 PM |
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in the match meteor shower vs chain lightning, you forgot to say that master of storms enhances chain lightning, while no perk enhances meteor shower I think.
In the game I played with dungeon I mainly used lightning, deep freeze and fireball for their seconday effects whereas I had meteor shower too. (ok, I had the artifact which enhances electric spells by 50%)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 11, 2008 08:49 PM |
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There is more to it. As what elemental boosting artifacts you get, what resistances the opponent has, weeks and so on. For instance everyone takes cloak of Sylanna vs dungeon but not necessarily the lightning ring. Many good rings out there even if you do get it.
Crappy it may be under certain occasions but not always.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 11, 2008 09:01 PM |
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Quote:
Try Kythra with Sorcery, Empathy, Enlightenment, Destruction and you choose from light or logistics and then tell me she's a sucky hero.
I played kythra a lot against academy a few months ago, trying to get a nice strategy against a faction that could handle the dungeon's destructive potential: academy. It worked well until the guys smarten up and started to use dark magic against her.
and the effect was, my slowed, suffering creatures couldn't really do much, and with my grim raiders puppeted, I got pwned in like 4 turns
good old times. I bet it's a bit more valuable now, though. Depends whether you get light magic + some decent spells or not.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 11, 2008 09:08 PM |
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I have been in a situation where my enemy's puppeted red dragons were blessed with magical immunity  That's one good counter to keep in mind. Vampirism is just as good.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 11, 2008 09:16 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 21:18, 11 Mar 2008.
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huh? puppeted + immune to magic?
oh you mean he dispelled it with magic immunity?
I don't always look at the week before fighting, and I can't guess which artifacts my opponent have but of course I try to choose the best spell depending on the circonstances (damages dealt, secondary effects, magical immunities / resistances, placement of stacks on the grid...)
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 11, 2008 09:51 PM |
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I dont know why you fear so much academy. It's a tough fight, but nevertheless, sylvan is the worst enemy (for me). Last fight vs academy i had my raiders puppeted, divine vengeance killed my witches and stalkers, furies suicided, and i still managed to win. The key was mass haste with tactics and distract.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 11, 2008 10:26 PM |
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Don't worry, I fear sylvan more myself. I just consider it a trickier situation.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 12, 2008 10:09 AM |
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Quote:
I dont know why you fear so much academy. It's a tough fight, but nevertheless, sylvan is the worst enemy (for me). Last fight vs academy i had my raiders puppeted, divine vengeance killed my witches and stalkers, furies suicided, and i still managed to win. The key was mass haste with tactics and distract.
because in the old times academy used to be the toughest.
And to use power of speed, you have to have it first. I didn't :-X Don't forget the game is random. You don't get what you want every time, especially if it's quite an exotic perk. Same for light magic.
And I never lost to sylvan when playing dungeon 
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Sargeras
Known Hero
the Fallen
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posted March 12, 2008 10:58 AM |
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Everybody's talking about might warlocks so i wanted to ask what skills i need for might warlock cause might wount work for me...
(leadership, light magic, defense - 2% to obtain skills)
Distract is great , if take empathy (only with Kytra, cuz with other heros leadership wount show up) then can't have  mentoring, would be great to take defense but chances are minimal, in MP u need logistics too so can't take might skills, sorcery and destructive are essential, warlocks have minimal defense etc...etc...
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Now they shall be consumed by the very flame they sought to control...
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 12, 2008 11:11 AM |
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Edited by samiekl at 11:22, 12 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
because in the old times academy used to be the toughest.
And to use power of speed, you have to have it first. I didn't :-X Don't forget the game is random. You don't get what you want every time, especially if it's quite an exotic perk. Same for light magic.
And I never lost to sylvan when playing dungeon
Power of speed is an attack perk, 15%  I always get a 2% perk too if i want it, you just have to know how to wait for it. You never lost to sylvan maybe because you played small maps where dungeon is strong, but if you play medium-large maps and no hit and run you'll see that sylvan is the most strong enemy.
Sargeras, a might dungeon can be might in skill choices and artifacts or might in artifacts. For example, you can take destruction, enlightenment, sorcery and logistics with artifacts enhancing attack and defense, or, you can take skills for might too. Here there's no one path to take. For example you can go for destruction, logistics, enlightenment, light, attack to maximize the first blow's power. Defense is actually better for a magic build. For a might dungeon, you dont need sorcery so much.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 12, 2008 11:24 AM |
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15% and I still didn't get it I didn't get destructive with Yrwanna a couple of times, too - and a few times, I've been offered it around level 17-18. Perhaps I'm just unlucky 
I've played a lot and light magic was always extremely rare to pop up. You must have a lot of luck to get it every time you want
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted March 12, 2008 11:27 AM |
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Sylvan is one of the hardest enemy in late game.
About heroes, every hero is good, you just use your creativity, sometimes you won't always get what you want, when that time comes, you must accept what you've got and try to use every possible strategy with it to achieve victory, just be flexible, i like randomize my heroes because of that.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 12, 2008 11:28 AM |
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Quote:
15% and I still didn't get it I didn't get destructive with Yrwanna a couple of times, too - and a few times, I've been offered it around level 17-18. Perhaps I'm just unlucky
I've played a lot and light magic was always extremely rare to pop up. You must have a lot of luck to get it every time you want
If i want destructive with Yrwanna as fast as possible, i dont take anything but enlightenment and irresistible perks till it shows up. A similar approach i take with 2% skills too. After Enlightenment, Destruction and Logistics i dont take any other skill until what i need shows up.
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