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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Indipendance of Kosovo?
Thread: Indipendance of Kosovo? This thread is 12 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT»
roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted January 03, 2008 09:22 PM
Edited by roy-algriffin at 21:25, 03 Jan 2008.

Quote:
WE have muslims memmbers here

Actually im not so sure of this, If there is i hope it doesnt result in some.. Overly political threads.
About kosovo, can anyone please explain in summary why they want independence. I mean its not as if theyre being treated badly or something.And i mean now not past griviences.
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Vidoja
Vidoja


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Checker for Heroes Competiton
posted January 03, 2008 09:24 PM

Quote:
Ethnic cleansing? I think it would be the independence of the Kosovo Albanians from Serbia, that would, at least, somewhat prevent bloodshed in Kosovo.

And the situation is a bit different then the one in Poland before WWII. In Kosovo the majority of the population are Kosovo Albanians not Serbs, where as in Poland the Poles were the majority.


Yes, it is ethnic cleansing! And might I ask who spills blood in Kosovo? Albanians. So the only way for the blood to be spilled is for the Albanians to stop spilling the blood.

Serbs were once a majority there, before the Albanians invaded Kosovo in WWII with the Nazi. Today, because nobody controlled the situation, Serbs are a minority. Nazi came into Poland also in WWII, and they were stopped but the situation up there was controlled after the war. The communisam in Yugoslavia encouraged Albanians and discouraged Serbians in Kosovo.
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Vidoja
Vidoja


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Checker for Heroes Competiton
posted January 03, 2008 09:27 PM

Quote:
Quote:
WE have muslims memmbers here

Actually im not so sure of this, If there is i hope it doesnt result in some.. Overly political threads.
About kosovo, can anyone please explain in summary why they want independence. I mean its not as if theyre being treated badly or something.And i mean now not past griviences.


They want indipendance so they could for a country they call 'Big Albania'. This country doesn't only include Kosovo but also parts of Macedonia, Greece and Montenegro.
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executor
executor


Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
posted January 04, 2008 01:38 AM
Edited by executor at 01:39, 04 Jan 2008.

Quote:

Fellow Slav, 'there material culture objects evacuated' isn't possible. We have big monasteries there and our churches (a very very big number, but I'll tell you when I find the precised number). But who started this bloodshed? Not Serbs. And they have to go away. Your proposal is etnic cleansing It violates the Resolution 1244, the statute of UN and the By-law of Serbia and humanity! Your proposal is cleansing of Serbs. Serbs suffer from the bloodshed! Albanians should be stopped, and not the Serbs evacuated. How would you feel if the Germans back in WWII did to your people what they did and then sombody says 'We'll evacuate the Pollaks, leave Poland to Germany and problem solved!'. No, my fellow Slav, we fought!

As it was mentioned before, Poles were majority before, but also after the war. And Poles got (my grandpa for instance) 'ethnic cleansed' from what was before WW II polish eastern frontier, and now is western parts of Belarus and Ukraine... by our soviet 'allies'. How fun . In exchange we got lands that were german for centuries, and Germans were 'ethnic cleansed' from there by commies to make place for 'ethnic cleansed' Poles. Thank you uncle Stalin .
Quote:
The communisam in Yugoslavia encouraged Albanians and discouraged Serbians in Kosovo.

Again damn communism . Perhaps central and eastern Europe will recover wounds caused by soviets in 100 years. Perhaps.

I feel really sorry for your nation, but your deep in a stinking swamp, and there are no solutions that will satisfy everyone. Yet the problem called Kosovo must be solved, as with time it does more and more damage.
I do not know who started violence there, it was not a regular war with a declaration of war, it started as civil fighting (if I'm correct). You say it was the Albanians, they'd say it was the Serbs. I can believe you, but I can't be sure.
My solution was not ideal, I admit it was unjust, but it would at least put the conflict to an end, before further destruction happens.
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Vidoja
Vidoja


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Checker for Heroes Competiton
posted January 04, 2008 02:07 PM

@executor: Yes, yes I see you got to your sences, and I thank you for that. That civil conflict started in Kosovo massivly during the WWII (it was small before). It was caused by these fellows:

We, the Serbs, declared war on the Nazi, but they didn't. They made them a country called 'Big Albania':

The first day of their terror started when they formed their 'Police' called 'Wulnetars'. Their mission was to clean Kosovo from Serbs. At that same time 80 000 Albanians moved into Kosovo. Only during the first month 10 000 Serbian houses are burnt. All smaller villiges had the same fate. Serbian religious objects were burnt down also as schools, and books were banned. The worst albanian division was 'SS Skenderbeg'. Till 1944, 10 000 were killed and 100 000 cleansed. And afther the commies, we couldn't be a majority there. We didn't start the conflict, that's for shure!
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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted January 06, 2008 10:28 PM

Kosovo has been with us for far too long for us to give it to a people who blackmail us with terrorist acts and open riots, and at the same time tell the West they're oh so democratic and open-minded.

Besides, what happened to those native Americans who proclaimed independence from the United States a few days ago? They were the majority in the lands they proclaimed their own (and would be a majority in much more if it weren't for the ethnic cleansing that happened to them). So why are they just pushed under the rug? They actually have much more right to claim independence than Kosovo Albanians do.

If it weren't for such hypocrisy from most western nations and the Albanians, I'd think about it. But things being the way they are, we won't just let it go. Cause any region in our country could be next.

Not much more to say from our side.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted January 06, 2008 10:55 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 01:32, 07 Jan 2008.

Yes,I voted for the independence cuz everyone has the right of freedom.


Btw:You Serbs gonna loose also Vojvodina too! Just wait some days and our beloved Austrian lands can come to us.There lived 200000 austrians you took their lands after WW2.Yugoslavia is ruined.

If there will be no independence than what do you expect another balkan war?

Why do you lie.Its all lies what you have written? Dou you think independence fighters from serbian occupation is a militant police?
Serbia has militans too.Garde of Tsar Lazar are militns.
26 from 27 EU states accept kosovo as a state.
You took from albania and kosovo today many lands.Nish,and many other provinces never belonged to you.

These are the effects fo serbian occupation and not albanian "terrorism"


What was Slobodan Milosevic?He made genocide among kosovo people.


Edit2 Sorry ww1 at the end the austro-hungraian empire was destoryed.
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted January 06, 2008 11:05 PM

Soon every bigger city of ex-yugoslavia will proclaim independance I guess.....
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted January 06, 2008 11:07 PM

Quote:
Soon every bigger city of ex-yugoslavia will proclaim independance I guess.....


I do not think thats a problem.DO you?

If you wanna live along your self isn't not that Ok?

Montenegro claimed independence even if the majority living there were Serbs.Nobody said anythig to them.
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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted January 06, 2008 11:20 PM

@Seraphim

1) After WW2? Lol?
You're aware that the borders of Yugoslavia were same before and after WW2, right? I mean, your history teacher isn't a dead squirrel or something?

2) The Guard of Tzar Lazar are a handful of idiots most of which have never even BEEN to Kosovo (and probably never will) and who are used mostly by the West as an excuse to say how we Serbs are evil Nazi militant bastards.

3) You're right, Kosovo (and Nish, while we're at it) was Serbian for only 12 centuries (before that it was Roman for about a millennium too)... But 5000 years ago, back when Albanians didn't even exist, when dinosaurs walked the Earth, it was Albanian according to your story? Along with Macedonia, Montenegro and other "ingredients" for the Greater Albania? Do you really believe that crap?

4) Slobodan Milosevic has been thrown off by our people, and handed to international justice. We are now a democracy. On the other hand, war criminals who purged Serbs and other non-Albanians from Kosovo still walk freely and are regarded as heroes by many Albanians.

Look, either say something that makes sense or stop desperately trying to prove your non-existent point by spitting on my people.

@Angelito
It's funny cause it's true xD The irony is that "Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava" ("Only Unity Saves the Serb") is the supposed motto of my people
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted January 06, 2008 11:32 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 23:45, 06 Jan 2008.

Quote:
@Seraphim

1) After WW2? Lol?
You're aware that the borders of Yugoslavia were same before and after WW2, right? I mean, your history teacher isn't a dead squirrel or something?

2) The Guard of Tzar Lazar are a handful of idiots most of which have never even BEEN to Kosovo (and probably never will) and who are used mostly by the West as an excuse to say how we Serbs are evil Nazi militant bastards.

3) You're right, Kosovo (and Nish, while we're at it) was Serbian for only 12 centuries (before that it was Roman for about a millennium too)... But 5000 years ago, back when Albanians didn't even exist, when dinosaurs walked the Earth, it was Albanian according to your story? Along with Macedonia, Montenegro and other "ingredients" for the Greater Albania? Do you really believe that crap?

4) Slobodan Milosevic has been thrown off by our people, and handed to international justice. We are now a democracy. On the other hand, war criminals who purged Serbs and other non-Albanians from Kosovo still walk freely and are regarded as heroes by many Albanians.

Look, either say something that makes sense or stop desperately trying to prove your non-existent point by spitting on my people.

@Angelito
It's funny cause it's true xD The irony is that "Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava" ("Only Unity Saves the Serb") is the supposed motto of my people




Hmm,why do you react like that really?

Anyway,insignificantly why did you Serbs than not react aginst the independence of Montenegro?But act horribly against other populations.Anyway the best teacher is the student itself you know and as the teacher I am,well the facts shown be your landsman are not really true.Its just Serbian propaganda against independence and for sure the facts gathered have also counter facts that lead to the whole story.Why do you not describe the whole real story of the time from ww2? You view only your side of view from that part.
Do you really think your making friends with this pathetic topic?
Is it in your power to change something? NO but damm it no.Russia helps Serbia cuz it needs politiccal influence agaisnt the its rival USA.But damm it your right why just not speak what your almightygacefull population has of bad sides.And i am sure i can make even of you what ever you like.

Look this thread looks more like a anti-propaganda page but anyway do you actually think its ok to post such things?

Well you say 1200 years ago was the Roman empire.Time changed and other nations began to exist.Whats wrong with you?New nation Kosovo!

Eitherwise what are you gonna do if Kosovo would not take independence?
What? I really do wanna know this.
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Vidoja
Vidoja


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Checker for Heroes Competiton
posted January 07, 2008 01:18 AM

The Albanian country was made to stop Serbia from having a way out to the adriatic sea. Counter facts, counter facts? The only counter fact is Milosevics empty words, on which he was on court. I am really, honestly telling you there are no counter facts. Vojvodina deserves to be Serbian because Serbs there helped Austro-Hungary defend from the Turks and died for Austro-Hungary. Serbs suffered there as well from Maria Theresia (spelling?). They were forced to change nationality, but the Russians put a stop to that by sending Russian theachers to Vojvodina.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted January 07, 2008 01:34 AM

Quote:
The Albanian country was made to stop Serbia from having a way out to the adriatic sea. Counter facts, counter facts? The only counter fact is Milosevics empty words, on which he was on court. I am really, honestly telling you there are no counter facts. Vojvodina deserves to be Serbian because Serbs there helped Austro-Hungary defend from the Turks and died for Austro-Hungary. Serbs suffered there as well from Maria Theresia (spelling?). They were forced to change nationality, but the Russians put a stop to that by sending Russian theachers to Vojvodina.


The problem is that if serbias seeks the mediterranean sea why did Montenegro got independent.As far as I know it has shores to adriatic.
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Vidoja
Vidoja


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Checker for Heroes Competiton
posted January 07, 2008 01:38 AM

Lets clear out two things:
1. We aren't going to let Kosovo have indipenadce because it is not legal by any law, because Albanians killed our people and demolished our churches.
2. We couldn't stand up to Montenegro indipendance because it is legal. And we even didn't want to because Montenegrians (mostly) never had any conflict with Serbs.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted January 07, 2008 01:46 AM
Edited by Seraphim at 01:53, 07 Jan 2008.

I m off dammmed now.I do not wanna hear from politics anything dammm it.

Why do you ppl,why me,I got my self in trouble.... live your own life and leave other ppl just alone.The best way is to seek personall freedom.you know politics is juts a dammed thing this day they are friend next day they are enemies.Try to seek succes to your life leave politics alone.
Politics=Lies

Israel-Palestine has differect problems,Balkans have different problems but the best problems are those to solve for our won life.
PEACE
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Vidoja
Vidoja


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Checker for Heroes Competiton
posted January 07, 2008 02:01 AM

Yeah, that is a good decision. But I really am saying the trooth, realy! And, one more thing will have some effect on Kosovo. On the 20. (maybe 21., not shure) of January, Serbia will chosse her president. Mostly, it is uncertan who of these is it going to be:

1. Boris Tadić Member of the Democratic party. He is for European integrations and he would never let Kosovo be independant.

2. Tomislav Nikolić Member of the Serbian radical party. He is for Serbian-Russian frendship and he would never let Kosovo be indipendant.

I'll tell you who is it going to be when it the results are in.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted January 08, 2008 12:09 AM bonus applied.
Edited by Vlaad at 03:47, 08 Jan 2008.

I've promised myself I wouldn't touch this topic even with a ten-foot pole, but...

@ Gootch:
Quote:
You're all a bunch of five year old boys who are incapable of reading and listening and wanting to one up each other with snippets of information that have nothing to do with anything.
This sentence sums it up.

Yeah, I should know better, but I can't help having a bad deja vu. The unfortunate readers should know that this topic would be considered hate speech in most of Balkan forums. The amount of poor taste is... overwhelming.

Each and every post is an example of successful indoctrination, starting with the first one:

@ Vidoja:
Quote:
It has been in the complex of Serbia since 850. - meaning, since the begining of the Serbian country, when Serbs separated from Slavic tribes.
Kosovo was conqured by Serbs in the 12th century, and was finally lost to Turks in 1459. It was regained in 1912 and lost in 1999. It was a Serbian territory for 350 years altogether, not 1200 as you'd like to think.

Why is this important?

In brief, Serbia claims Kosovo as its historical territory (emphatically referred to as "the cradle of Serbian culture", although the phrase has been abused by those whose idea of culture is desacralizing other nations' graveyards). Unfortunately, "historical justice" is not always a valid argument - not only did the province belong to other nations (see also Vokial's post), but also did other provinces in modern Serbia. See the next quote for an example.

Finally, a historical account, especially biased and incomplete one, does not help - it only reminds of the bad blood.
Quote:
Vojvodina deserves to be Serbian because Serbs there helped Austro-Hungary defend from the Turks and died for Austro-Hungary.
See? This is an example of the policy of double standards. Vojvodina (North Serbia), even Belgrade, were in Serbian possession for a historically short period of time.

What is also problematic is the simplification of historical processes ("Vojvodina deserved it", etc). I digress, but such approach to serious topics was never an issue in this subforum before. I'd prefer new posters checked their sources before writing.

They could discover a lot of interesting facts about the life of Serbs in Austria, some of them rather surprising and different from their knowledge. Or they could go even further in the past, and might discover that Serbs helped Turks in another battle of Kosovo, against the allied forces of Hungarians and - Albanians.

The point...? Historical events are relative, and often different than notions present in elementary school textbooks and on national televisions.

Quote:
The, partially romanized Illyrians, as the English call them 'Albanians', but as Serbs and themselves call themselves 'Shiptars'...
Please don't play that game; it doesn't matter what they call themselves - that expression is offensive when Serbs use it and you know it. It is considered a slur even in nationalistic media and should be avoided.

Quote:
Most of the Serbs didn't accept the Muslim faith over their Ortodox faith, and because of great terror from the Turks ('zulum') many of them fled to the north, to live there and help the Habsburg monarchy to defend Europe against the Turks.
Help Austria? I think they were running for their lives. Why not mention that hundreds of thousands of Serbian families left Kosovo throughout the 18th century, which drastically changed the demographic map of Kosovo? Showing both sides would not weaken your position; on the contrary - you'd be viewed as a fair analyst, which would strenghten your cause.

Quote:
in London, 1912. Albania was declared indipendant. I wonder why?
Why? Because it was a separate nation?

Quote:
But Serbia till then, never had any conflict with them, they lived peacefully on Kosovo
This is not true. You are obviously not familiar with the League of Prizren and other movements.

Quote:
World war II came, and Albania stood aside Italy, the occupator. They created a country called 'Big Albania'. Albanians formed an army and started the exile of Serbs. Immigrations from Albania to Kosovo became grater, up to 80 000. During the first months of occupation, 10 000 Serbian houses was burned to the ground. In Metohija, the west part of Kosovo, all colonial villiges were burned. Churches from the 8. century to the 14. century were destroyed (just the beggining). The division SS 'Skenderbeg' was the most cruel. Till 1944. on Kosovo 10 000 Serbs was killed and 100 000 exiled.
This is all true, but why generalize? Greater Albania had a puppet government installed by Fascist Italy, much like Serbia at the time. Just like Serbia, Albania had a strong resistance movement.
Quote:
This was done by the communist leader Tito (when he began rule, he announced he was a Yugoslav, and on his death bed he announced he was a Croat) and his party.
Tito did a good job controlling nationalistic movements, warts and all.
Quote:
When Yugoslavia separated, a war started. The new croat Constitution took the status of the Serbs living there. There were no more a constitutive nation. Before I go on, I must tell you something. There were two resistances during WWII, Communist and Nationalist. Communist is called Partisan and Nationalist Chetniks. Now lets get back. The Yugoslav national army, army of Yugoslavia (shorter YNA) protected Yugoslavia. Then, war came. It was Sebs vs. Croats in Croatia and Serbs vs. Muslims. This war started becaus of the splitting of Yugoslavia. In Croatia, the war was ended in summer of 1995. by the two actions of Croatian millitary: 'Bljesak' meaning Flash, and 'Oluja' meaning storm. Hudreds of thousands of Serbs were exiled from Croatia. The war in Bosnia was ended by the splitting of Bosnia into two entities: Serb one and a Muslim one.
How is all this relevant? By the way, I must notice you've skipped some things, such as Sarajevo and Srebrenica. Intentionally or you were out of time...?

Quote:
On Kosovo on the other hand, Albanians were terrorising Serbs with the action of the Kosovo Liberation Army (albanian army). Serbs even that couldn't control the terror of Albanians, then 90% of Kosovo's population.
That's Serbian part of the story - Albanian sources tell about apartheid in Kosovo. Their struggle began in 1981, long before KLA. Oppressed, they became oppressors themselves. Instead of taking part in the democratization of Serbia, they decided to boycott its institutions. Had 1.5 million of Albanian voters ever participated in elections, Milosevic would have never been the president. Sadly, extremists on both sides prevailed (but that is another topic).

Quote:
So NATO wanted the Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic, but it killed the innocent people. Now, Albanians are destroying the religious objects on Kosovo, and want indipendance.
Whoa. While the NATO airstrikes were a crime itself, you've failed to state why coexistence in Kosovo is impossible: Serbian war crimes. Most were comitted by Serbian paramilitary troops (criminals and such), but also enabled by the regime in Belgrade. Albanian houses and mosques were burned just like Serbian homes before, innocent civilians killed, entire places ethnically cleansed. Thousands were murdered, many of them still missing. Mass graves were found in Serbia years after. Even if this terror wasn't organized by the state (do you honestly believe that?), it was never sanctioned by the Serbian authorities.

Needless to say, the ethnic Albanians comitted similar crimes when NATO took over the control over the province in June 1999. Their crimes were hardly isolated acts of revenge, including the campaign of terror in March 2004 when thousands of Serbs were forced to leave their homes and seek refuges in Serbia proper.

Finally, nearly a decade after the conflict, the human rights of Kosovo's minorities, especially Serbs - are not granted. This fact should have been your starting and strongest point; instead of Albanian Fascists from 1941, show us the photos of Serbs who in the 21st century are forced to live in the ghetto, without water or electricity, who are protected by international troops whenever they go shopping, who get married in destroyed churches without roofs. These are the things anyone in the world can relate to.


Now read carefully:

What you do not realize is that the current Serbian authorities - both the president and the government - cannot allow themselves to be remembered in history as the leaders who lost Kosovo. Therefore they will keep protesting and wait for the inevitable - the unilateral recognition of Kosovo independence by the US and EU. It won't be their fault, they've done everything they could, bla bla.

What will happen next? Serbia will damage its relations with the West and endanger its possible acceptance to the EU. The only side who will gain anything will be Russia, which has its own local and global interests.

The nationalistic movement in humilated Serbia will grow stronger again, leading the country into isolation. Democratization and economy will suffer.

What did you gain in the end?




Finally, I have a few questions for you:

If Kosovo remains part of Serbia
, are you ready for hundreds of thousands of unemployed people flooding Serbian cities? Are you ready to give part of your (parents') monthly salary for the development of a ruined and poor province? Are you ready for a  major political party with 1,500,000 supporters? Are you ready to accept an Albanian prime minister? Or an Albanian minister of police?

Are you sincerely willing to live in Serbia 2099, with more Albanians than Serbs? Will your grandchildren learn Albanian at school?

Or are you interested in the territory only?




@ Seraphim:
Quote:
Btw:You Serbs gonna loose also Vojvodina too! Just wait some days and our beloved Austrian lands can come to us.
You are lucky the moderators are not familiar with the topic. Why are you needlessly going off topic and flaming other members? What's Vojvodina got to do with Kosovo? I don't see the ethnic Hungarians are raising the issue, but a boy from Austria is?

Your "beloved Austrian lands"? If your wording wasn't ridiculuos, it would be more offensive than this entire thread. Was that a threat?

Speaking of which, what's the deal with "Jugoslavia" in your profile? You misspelled the name of your own country, a non-existant to boot?

EDIT: Oh, I see you've changed it to Croatia/Austria now. It explains some things, namely your prejudices.

You did ask a few legitimate questions, but need to get your facts straight:
Quote:
There lived 200000 austrians you took their lands
Austrians? They were mostly Germans.

Quote:
Serbia has militans too.Garde of Tsar Lazar are militns.
A completely insignificant pack of outsiders.
Quote:
You took from albania and kosovo today many lands.
The "many lands" never belonged to Albania and Kosovo in the first place. Now shoo! Do your homework.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted January 08, 2008 12:45 AM

Ok I make a retreat IN ALL POLITICAL topics.
I make myself a 'Noob' when dealing with politics.Anyway your harsh comments do not bother my that much and really By your owerwhelming.....intellectuality well good luck with in other topics.
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted January 08, 2008 03:32 AM

Quote:
If Kosovo remains part of Serbia, are you ready for hundreds of thousands of unemployed people flooding Serbian cities? Are you ready to give part of your (parents') monthly salary for the development of a ruined and poor province? Are you ready for a  major political party with 1,500,000 supporters? Are you ready to accept an Albanian prime minister? Or an Albanian minister of police?

Are you sincerely willing to live in Serbia 2099, with more Albanians than Serbs? Will your grandchildren learn Albanian at school?

Or are you interested in the territory only?

Knowing how wasteful and corrupt goverments can be, especially newly made ones, Means that they should practically be begging them to stay part of serbia so that any rebuilding gets done, Otherwise the majority of the taxes will proboably go down some pointless hole, Especially with needing to establish new facilities and goverment officials and an army and probably 20 fully stocked fridges in the prime-ministers office.
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Vidoja
Vidoja


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Checker for Heroes Competiton
posted January 08, 2008 02:16 PM

Vlaad: Yes, I am redy to make Kosovo a better place as long as there is no violence. Kosovo was Serbian even when the Turks occupied our lands. They were still living there. I don't want Kosovo for it's territory, but I want everybody to live peacefully there and no religious objects to be destroyed.
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