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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 27, 2008 09:30 AM |
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When considering the question. "Why is eating animals ok?" there have been answers here, regardless if you want to accept them or not. The conditions that some are kept in are horrible, I'll grant you that, but then again lets look at plants.
If you go out into the wild plants grow haphazardly and 'wild'. Some have no issue with chokeing out other plants for more room to grow. It is nature, the fit survive, the rest parish. There are many and varied types in any area.
Now look at a farm. They are forced to grow a certain way, and anything that doesn't fit is exterminated with extream prejudice. Chemicals are used or they are ripped up by their roots and later burned.
They are forced to grow close together, and kept as packed as possible. Then come harvest time they are multilated by various means. Lined up in a row, seeing all your friends and family mutilated, with nothing to do but wait your turn. Packed closer then even the animals, in dirt and grime. Powerless to avoid their fate.
Ok. I believe that there should be better ways to 'harvest' the meat, and that animals should not be treated as they are. There are many farms, however, that do not practice the type of things you see in the video. They have such things as free range chickens, and humane way of killing their animals. Buy from these, or organic, if you are concerned how animals are treated.
As rediculous as the plant thing above sounds, I honestly think that people don't stop and think about such things. We have no proof either way that plants are not as aware as an animal. They might just not be able to communicate in a way we understand. It may be just as cruel (or worse) to eat plants. And if we can't either either, then what? Want a nice juicy rock?
You want to know the absolute best reason for eating meat? Because it is natural. Animals eat animals, and despite our 'higher function' (And there are things that happen constantly that makes me doubt this) we are just animals. Our bodies are designed to eat both meat and plants. If we were meant to eat just one or the other, our bodies would reject one and we would be UNABLE to eat it. Period.
Should our food be gotten more humanely? Absolutely. Is hunting for 'sport' (still not sure how somebody with a gun against an unarmed creature is a sport..) wrong? In my opinon yes. Is hunting for food wrong? Absolutely not.
Now I have one last thing to say about hunting for sport. You want to make a real sport from it? Go hunting a grizzly with just a knife. THAT is a sport. Don't try to tell me that shooting something from hundreds of yards away is a sport. Nothing 'sporting' about that.
So eat grass for all I care. It's your life. Let the rest of us have our nice juicy hamburger in peace.
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Message received.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 27, 2008 09:39 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 09:41, 27 Oct 2008.
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This has certainly come a long way oO.
From eating animals to calling people nazis... this is seriously ****ed up weired ...
EDIT: mwuahahaa this is still in the VW mwuahaha
Jaaaij .
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 27, 2008 01:10 PM |
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I must do a completely off topic post here.
Mytical, bears aren't hunted with knives they are hunted with a single spear. 
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted October 27, 2008 01:22 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 13:24, 27 Oct 2008.
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@mvassilev:Quote:
I don't enslave creatures that can enslave me back.
You don't make any sense for what I asked. (I get what you mean but you're missing the point)
You don't enslave creatures, because you are a creature and wouldn't want to be enslaved, right? But that means, since creature includes both humans and animals, and since creatures CAN enslave you (humans) then you shouldn't enslave creatures (both humans and animals) in this example, following this logic (which is yours but only replacing human with creature).
Or are you talking about an individual basis? In that case, if we have two guys, one which is able to enslave you and one completely defenseless without being able to do so, then you're saying on an individual basis that it's ok to enslave the latter? (since he can't enslave you)
On a collective basis, where we include all humans/creatures, then it's not since someone (INCLUDING YOU) can enslave others.
@Mytical:Quote:
You want to know the absolute best reason for eating meat? Because it is natural. Animals eat animals, and despite our 'higher function' (And there are things that happen constantly that makes me doubt this) we are just animals. Our bodies are designed to eat both meat and plants. If we were meant to eat just one or the other, our bodies would reject one and we would be UNABLE to eat it. Period.
I said that is a somewhat weak argument. Don't get me wrong it's not like I am saying it's wrong, but it simply is... not solid argument. (hey it's the VW so I like to point out flaws in arguments  )
If we were designed with a self-destruct mechanism that wiped everything in 10 miles, and we were about to die, should we use it? After all, we have been 'designed' with it so we should use it before we die right? Or we can eat human meat, since we've been designed with it and we are ABLE to eat it?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 27, 2008 01:29 PM |
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Quote:
Or we can eat human meat, since we've been designed with it and we are ABLE to eat it?
Animals (carnivores) aren't cannibals so we shouldn't be either - that's part of the 'nature balance'
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 27, 2008 01:32 PM |
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TheDeath:
Not necessarily on an individual basis. A little above that. First, it's hard to judge if a person (human) is capable of enslaving you or not. Sure, you might be able to enslave him/her right now, but what if he/she escapes, becomes more powerful, and comes back and enslaves you in revenge? Better be on the safe side. Second, if you enslave a human, then you (as a human) open the gates to humans enslaving other humans - and you might join the ranks of the slaves. You don't want that. But the creatures argument is inaccurate, because only some of the creatures are even conceivably capable of enslaving you. For example, a human may or may not be able to enslave you, but a pig or cow never will.
Asheera:
What if the human being eaten volunteers as a post-mortem option?
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted October 27, 2008 01:38 PM |
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@Asheera:Quote:
Animals (carnivores) aren't cannibals so we shouldn't be either - that's part of the 'nature balance'
Some animals and some humans are cannibals. Especially if they are starving (animals). Well some of them anyway
@mvassilev:Quote:
Not necessarily on an individual basis. A little above that. First, it's hard to judge if a person (human) is capable of enslaving you or not. Sure, you might be able to enslave him/her right now, but what if he/she escapes, becomes more powerful, and comes back and enslaves you in revenge? Better be on the safe side.
No let's say you are either certain he will not or maybe he is handicapped or something. But if you want (from that perspective) ridiculous precautions, then you shouldn't enslave animals either -- maybe some distant alien had it as pet and will take revenge, or maybe they will modify their brains or someone genetically modifies them (and then act like humans in which case it seems you have a problem with "enslavement") etc...
Quote:
Second, if you enslave a human, then you (as a human) open the gates to humans enslaving other humans - and you might join the ranks of the slaves. You don't want that. But the creatures argument is inaccurate, because only some of the creatures are even conceivably capable of enslaving you. For example, a human may or may not be able to enslave you, but a pig or cow never will.
No you see the creature example is very similar. Whereas you use a restricted "human" classification of a given entity, you can just as well use "handicapped human" or "non-handicapped human", or "capable-of-enslaving human" and "non-capable-of-enslaving human"
If you use that category then the whole thing falls apart
Quote:
What if the human being eaten volunteers as a post-mortem option?
Who says that others will want to do it even if he/she volunteers?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 27, 2008 01:48 PM |
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Quote:
But if you want (from that perspective) ridiculous precautions, then you shouldn't enslave animals either -- maybe some distant alien had it as pet and will take revenge, or maybe they will modify their brains or someone genetically modifies them (and then act like humans in which case it seems you have a problem with "enslavement") etc...
The difference is that there are definite historical examples of humans enslaving humans, and some of that still goes on today, although underground. There are no historical examples of aliens enslaving humans, so we have no real reason to fear that.
Quote:
Whereas you use a restricted "human" classification of a given entity, you can just as well use "handicapped human" or "non-handicapped human", or "capable-of-enslaving human" and "non-capable-of-enslaving human"
But it's hard to draw the line there. How handicapped is a "handicapped human"? And when is a human capable of enslaving or not? Hard to tell. But I'm pretty sure that humans are capable of enslaving other humans, but I've never heard of anyone being enslaved by a cow.
Quote:
Who says that others will want to do it even if he/she volunteers?
The argument against cannibalism, is, as I understand it, that we're killing humans not as a punishment but to eat them. But if they volunteer to do it and are dead already (that is, no one killed them for food), then what is the objection? (Other than any objection with any specific animal.)
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted October 27, 2008 02:03 PM |
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Quote:
The difference is that there are definite historical examples of humans enslaving humans, and some of that still goes on today, although underground. There are no historical examples of aliens enslaving humans, so we have no real reason to fear that.
Yes we have because we aren't robots limited only to past experiences or induction. That is not "reason" that is called mechanical thinking. Not very bright, unless you say your computer is smarter than you
Quote:
But it's hard to draw the line there. How handicapped is a "handicapped human"? And when is a human capable of enslaving or not? Hard to tell. But I'm pretty sure that humans are capable of enslaving other humans, but I've never heard of anyone being enslaved by a cow.
It's not hard at all, but to simplify it let's just talk in theory, since obviously it's not how current society works. (I'm pretty sure if we were some centuries back we could, for example, discuss a Nazi society without necessarily requiring them to exist beforehand).
Quote:
The argument against cannibalism, is, as I understand it, that we're killing humans not as a punishment but to eat them. But if they volunteer to do it and are dead already (that is, no one killed them for food), then what is the objection? (Other than any objection with any specific animal.)
Well first of all that is not the argument against cannibalism but let's leave it at that since I'm bored of this subject.
Secondly, that's not what I meant. I meant that just because someone volunteers to have his body "available" for breakfast () doesn't mean other people will want to eat it (doesn't matter what reasons, maybe personal etc).
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JapanGamer
Known Hero
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posted October 27, 2008 06:01 PM |
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Quote:
When considering the question. "Why is eating animals ok?" there have been answers here, regardless if you want to accept them or not. The conditions that some are kept in are horrible, I'll grant you that, but then again lets look at plants.
...
You want to know the absolute best reason for eating meat? Because it is natural...
There have been non-justifying answers ranging from natural to tasty. Natural? Dont compare us to the animals, animals cant build anything better than primitive cavemen. You want natural, you want to live like animals chew on a bone like dogs, and like the cavemen (who really did eat bone marrow to survive). The only reason eating cooked meat is genetically possible and seemingly natural is because the cavemen evolved, which is something our higher functioning reasoning should do. We don't need meat to live. We don't need chicken, cow, pig, horse, dog, alligator, fish, eggs, etc.
Quote:
Our bodies are designed to eat both meat and plants. If we were meant to eat just one or the other, our bodies would reject one and we would be UNABLE to eat it.
Our bodies were once designed to eat raw meats until we evolved. We should evolve, and reject meat but we never will unless God decides to rule the planet.
Quote:
Let the rest of us have our nice juicy hamburger in peace.
Eat grass?? Sounds like a natural tone to thinking your right and what not but there are more than 1000 things Vegetarians can eat, including replications of a juicy hamburger(yes, I've had one it was excellent) The bottom line is most of us don't need meat and I'd like to see half of us try eating dead animal with the rest of it's bloody body on the table staring at them. Its natural for humans to hide from reality when it's not on their side. We dont need it x 5000
Heres something googled, just a segmentQuote:
We eat meat because society and industry maintains a positive but false set of messages about a supposed need for meat when really we do not nutritionally need it, it causes suffering to animals and is environmentally unsustainable.
Quote:
Meat is environmentally unsustainable
Around 4 kilos of grain are required to produce 1 kilo of pork, and 8 kilos are needed for a kilo of beef. (Source: American Association for the Advancement of Science). So we could feed more people with the grain used to produce meat than the meat itself.
So would you call humanity stupid for spending all that food because they like the taste of dead animal? "No, its natural to eat meat even though it requires all of that grain"
And look, this is all the reason we need meat lol
Protein, iron, zinc b vitamins. You seriously don't think a pill would help that? natural? And mytical these are about the same reasons everyone in this thread tries to use to justify meat eating.
* Why not?
* Meat tastes so good.
* It's good for you.
* We deserve dominion over what are essentially dumb and numb animals.
* What else are animals for?
* Its natural
So please don't tell me I should accept that, why, its completely unnatural for me to accept that.
Humanity, evolution?
"No we're to wrapped in our own ways of thinking"
And for some more credible assurance that we dont need meatQuote:
Physician and researcher with Harvard and Stanford degrees concludes its highly evident we DONT need meat. (
Hm, This has to be my longest post in HC history.. It will be funny and sad if no one replies
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Pictures of god
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted October 27, 2008 07:43 PM |
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one reason why eating animals is okay
I eat animals, ergo it's okay.
There you go.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted October 27, 2008 08:51 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:52, 27 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
Our bodies were once designed to eat raw meats until we evolved. We should evolve, and reject meat but we never will unless God decides to rule the planet.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted October 27, 2008 08:54 PM |
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You know it's not juice that comes out of a tomatoe when you cut right? It's the poor fruit's tears.
For those of you who are still convinced eating meat is bad, just remember this handy chart:
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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JapanGamer
Known Hero
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posted October 27, 2008 09:16 PM |
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Yeh, well we need tomatoes and the like to survive, Potatoes, peanuts, grains etc, the list is amazingly long what can be eaten without killing animals. And we need dairy, grains, and fruits and vegetables, not meat.
I'm not sure what a straw man is but your answers are clearly easy to know down.. To easy.
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Pictures of god
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted October 27, 2008 09:17 PM |
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Huh?
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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JapanGamer
Known Hero
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posted October 27, 2008 09:21 PM |
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Quote:
I eat animals, ergo it's okay.
There you go.
Example. This is not a good awnser, it's to easy to knock down, meaning its intelligence mark on the charts are so low I have nothing to say to it..
Another one
Meat is tasty so its ok.
I have nothing to say to it.
None of you has clearly shown me its ok to eat meat outside of the view points of the majority of humanity. I am open minded though, but nature doesn't cut it either, nor does our ability to digest meat. But at least they are formidable responses to a serious question.
P.S. I am not calling any one unintelligent I'm just pointing out some of the answers are thoughtless. Like my first two examples. I do therefore its fine, and its tasty.
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Pictures of god
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted October 27, 2008 09:26 PM |
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Lexxan was joking lol
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted October 27, 2008 09:37 PM |
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Quote:
None of you has clearly shown me its ok to eat meat outside of the view points of the majority of humanity. I am open minded though, but nature doesn't cut it either, nor does our ability to digest meat. But at least they are formidable responses to a serious question.
And you haven't shown us any reasons it's wrong to eat meat aside from typical vegetarian arguments and what your ethics teacher told you.
You said you eat meat, Gamer. Why? How do you justify it? What's your one reason for eating animals?
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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JapanGamer
Known Hero
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posted October 27, 2008 10:01 PM |
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Because I'm in a situation until Wednesday where I'm only served mainstream food including meat. I pass when I can but I have to eat it sometime. I feel I'm in the same boat as those in for instance africa who have no choice but to breed to eat. I have no choice.
And if the killing and suffering isn't a reason enough to not eat meat, compiled with the fact that its unnecessary to live happily, then I'm afraid my only response is.... blagrrrr
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Pictures of god
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doomnezeu
Supreme Hero
Miaumiaumiau
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posted October 27, 2008 10:20 PM |
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Celf, it may also be something related to cultures.
For example, here in Romania, not eating meat is a little bit lol, mainly because half or more of the population lives in rural environments, where growing chicken, pigs, cows and stuff is the main occupation.
I, myself, have no problem with eating vegetables, but if there is not some meat involved, it does not taste good. I tried soia, the "replacement" for meat, but it just does not cut it for me. I need animal proteines, nut just normal ones. It's in my system.
Let's face it, meat is terribly delicious. I especially like raw, uncooked meat (biftec comes into mind).
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This thread is pages long: 
