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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 525 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 (91) 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 ]
Lokheit
Lokheit


Adventuring Hero
posted January 06, 2011 07:45 AM
Edited by Lokheit at 07:54, 06 Jan 2011.

Ok so then 1 skeleton takes the same spots on your pool than 1 ghoul or 1 ghost instead of taking X spots and ghoul taking 1.5*X spots for example. This was one of the things that I really wanted to know since the new system.

I guess this is why the skeletons and goblins have throwable weapons, to give them a role that makes them a useful pick if you pick them instead of the other units. And the reason because there are no peasants as they are too weak to compare. I never liked them, a unit is to fight, not to give you gold, is like wasting a tier that should go to a unit that can last some turns in a siege. I only liked them on the HOMM V pre-nerf installation when you could take 900 peasants and transform them into 900 crossbowmen on the same turn.

Now I'm seeing units like the priestess and the sucubus to be extremely support orientated. If a priestess is just a weak shooter/caster with lesser support skills I would take the crossbowman before them 100%, so they need to offer something really special in comparison (probably healing) in order to pick them instead of wasting the tier pool on offensive units.

They need to be very careful with balancing now. If on the same tier a unit is better than the other options even taking in consideration the different roles and all consume the same, I can see some armies picking always the same unit as core or elite tier instead of dividing it among the 3 units.

EDIT: nice to hear about the sepparate dwelings, it gives you 14 buildings (counting the upgrades) instead of just 6.

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Kenishi
Kenishi


Known Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
posted January 06, 2011 09:28 AM

Quote:
I think that goblins are given the boomerang to give them advantages when selecting them instead of orcs and harpies. Probably they will still be the weakest of them by far, but shooting and being the special ammo of some units like shamans and cyclops, will force you to select some groups of them.

And refering to that stuff about balancing on tiers, this is the third or the fourth time that I'm going to ask this on this board but I have never got an answer:

Are all the units of a same tier balanced or some of them are more powerfull but takes a higher % of the tier pool than the other option? (for example example: each skeleton takes 10% of tier1, each ghoul 15% and each ghost 25% or are they on the same power level and all take the same % per creature?). Because some comparisons (specially goblins versus orc, even if the goblin serves as special ammo and can shoot) aren't fair to be on the same power level.



         As I see the new system I think that each pool Core, Elite, Champion will be given a number let’s say 100 for the core, now in the core you have 3 types of units Goblins , Orc (I will use Orc instead of MAULER for this exemplification) and Harpies, and each unit has a power unit for example:

 1 for Goblin,
 3 for Orc
 2 for Harpy

      Now when you buy the units 1 goblin consumes 1 power from the pool so forth and so on and buy whichever you want until using up the 100 point given, the difference in choosing would be given buy abilities ore usefulness for given situation and also (not conformed buy my supposition) money, goblins have lower stats and are the cheapest, harpies are close in stats to goblins but have useful ability and flyer also medium to low cost and orc is the most expensive from the lot but has very high stats and abilities.

I don`t think that upgraded abilities would interfere with formula, unless upgrade modifies heavily the units stats and/or gives additional abilities.



____________
No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted January 06, 2011 09:34 AM

That sounds about right. Although we know nothing of price per unit yet.
But I find it hard to imagine that Goblins if they have lower stats cost the same as Maulers who then have higher stats
____________
"And if you're half as excited as I am, then we've discovered a whole new level of indifference." - David Mitchell

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blizz
blizz


Adventuring Hero
of temper grace
posted January 06, 2011 10:26 AM
Edited by blizz at 10:32, 06 Jan 2011.

Quote:
Yes, this dwelling sistem can work 2 ways. Ppl will fight with only 3 stacks (1 core, 1 elite, 1 champion), because there are only 1 creature in each tier, wich are mostly useful.

My worst nightmare for now and the biggest issue i have with the new tier system.
I hope i wont have to neglect creatures due to them being unbalanced and redundant. Every creature should be essential for the factions gameplay.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted January 06, 2011 10:32 AM

From what we can safely guess from the artwork and the descriptions I doubt that.
Some might be more usefull than others in situations, but so far the roles seem pretty evenly devided.

Most seem to have archers, skirmisher, caster/support and assault units in multiple tiers.
____________
"And if you're half as excited as I am, then we've discovered a whole new level of indifference." - David Mitchell

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KingImp
KingImp


Famous Hero
posted January 06, 2011 11:22 AM

Quote:
The bad thing is, that there will be probably be one building for recruiting all core units, one building for elite ones and one building for champion (yet worst case scenario is one building for the lot of them). With the magic guilds gone too, with creature dwellings shrinking, we're gonna have the worst Town Screens in the series yet. I don't even dare to imagine how many other classic town buildings have been taken out too.


That makes me wonder about the external creature dwellings now. Will there be one per unit or will there be only three dwellings per faction (core, elite, champion)?

I personally wasn't thrilled when we found out that Nival condensed the Level 4, 5, 6, & 7 units all into one dwelling especially when Heroes 3 had seven dwellings for all the units.

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admira
admira


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 06, 2011 11:26 AM

@KingImp: agree, I kinda miss 7 external dwelling, it makes the adventure map so colorful IMHO

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Willis
Willis


Known Hero
posted January 06, 2011 12:11 PM

Yeah, this worries me. If each tier has a growth pool that covers all the units in that tier, they are going to have to balance the units really well. If they don't, some units may never get built. I would prefer each creature had its own growth pool. Is there any confirmation about how this works, yet? It has been a while since I read the FAQ's.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 06, 2011 01:30 PM

There are two possible problems with such a building plan if it's not balanced properly:
- many situations will be resolved as per the stone-scissor-paper method, which will mean that about 50% of all creatures will be used at any point and the rest 50% will not be "mobilized" for the length of the same game or will be used only if the initial approach to the situation fails and the defeat of the respective main hero is not enough to defeat the player;
- there will be "perfect templates". This is even worse and has to be avoided at any cost. The creatures will have to have well-delinċated strengths and weaknesseses in order to avoid scenarios when one Core or Elite creature is more effective than the other in more situations. Using the beloved StarCraft example, this will be comparing Marines to Firebats - the former are used very often against various forces while the latter are ineffective most of the time, except in a few specific situations when they shine. Making the creatures too different however makes them susceptible to stone-scissor-paper approaches.
I think the best way to avoid all this will be to make all or most of the creatures co-operate on the battlefield and thus become synergically stronger than if they are on their own. I hope the devs have chosen this path.

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted January 06, 2011 02:07 PM

For all the people that didn't catch it during EvilPs posts of artwork awesomeness.
Quote:
http://www.mightandmagic.com/heroes6


Check it out. Now! Lots of info on creature abilities and everything else. A lot of hints to coming factions etc. etc. it's got all you want. NOW GO DAMNIT!!
____________
"The superior man is modest in
his speech but exceeds in his
actions." Confucius

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
Really, Ubisoft?
posted January 06, 2011 02:29 PM

Quote:
I think the best way to avoid all this will be to make all or most of the creatures co-operate on the battlefield and thus become synergically stronger than if they are on their own. I hope the devs have chosen this path.

Obviously the pitfall of the new scheme is the same as with the alternative upgrade: That the units will have the same application, only one will be stronger than the other. To avoid this, they would have each tier (Core, Elite) contain units from different groups of the following:
- Offensive
- Deffensive (tank)
- Support (caster or other)
- Ranged
- Flying

Indeed, that seems to be the case for the factions, and thus one would hoe that all unit indeed serve a purpose and avoids ending up as one that is skipped.

Btw. such a scheme would make it even more tricky to implement alternative upgrades in a balanced way.
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| Heroes 6 - News overview

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Bludgeon
Bludgeon


Known Hero
posted January 06, 2011 02:37 PM

Quote:
- Offensive
- Deffensive (tank)
- Support (caster or other)
- Ranged
- Flying

I'd refine it a little:
-offensive & mobile (walking or flying)
-defensive
-ranged (shooter or breeder)
-support (caster usually)

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Bludgeon
Bludgeon


Known Hero
posted January 06, 2011 02:51 PM
Edited by bludgeon at 15:04, 06 Jan 2011.

Quote:
If you click the units it shows their bios and special ability descriptions
And animation. Fantastic stuff!

Descriptions drop some new names - possibly creatures:
dire wolf (cerber's descr.)
sabretooth tiger (cerber)
naga (ghoul's descr.)
mummy (lich's descr, but this one could simply indicate mummified corpses, not undead creatures)

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Willis
Willis


Known Hero
posted January 06, 2011 02:56 PM

Another indication of Naga as the fifth faction from the Ghoul description: "This meat is as tough as ghoul's skin." A famous line from a Naga comic play..."

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evinin
evinin


Supreme Hero
Servant of Asha
posted January 06, 2011 03:01 PM

Quote:
If you click the units it shows their bios and special ability descriptions


Thank you, Elvin, I only looked in the HC threads about artwork and yours (btw the Eel is said to be a neutral, but you have written it as a boss). Anyway, the creatures in the game look much more awesome (mostly the Inferno creatures)
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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted January 06, 2011 03:03 PM

For reference purposes, the bosses are neutrals.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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LichKing012
LichKing012


Known Hero
posted January 06, 2011 03:37 PM

I really don't get the hate for a rush type strategy. Do I want it to be the ONLY strategy? No, but I think that allowing someone to Rush with 700 goblins at the end of week 3 could be really interesting. That being Said I don't want that to be the ONLY strategy, I would like other strategies that are just as viable.

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Naze
Naze


Known Hero
posted January 06, 2011 04:10 PM

I had a small hope, that the Haven artworks are not binding proposals... as I can see, I was wrong. The upgraded units are somehow over-decorated. Just look at the marksman's helmet - the falcon statue is just ridiculous

Apart from the baroque-style criticism, I am astonished! I love all the unit abilities - although, I wonder, how some of them work (such as the Juggernaut's taunt)...
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LordGodric
LordGodric


Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
posted January 06, 2011 04:19 PM
Edited by LordGodric at 16:23, 06 Jan 2011.

http://might-and-magic.ubi.com/heroes-6/en-GB/news/details.aspx?c=tcm:21-11489&ct=tcm:6-231-32

read at Sandro, Crag Hack and Solimyr.

Do you think they'll be actual heroes or just npc's?
Or maybe, just avaliable in campaign... i think there was an artefact that took sandro's name in H5... His skull, wasn't it?

Maybe the necro girl is going to behead him at sometime...

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted January 06, 2011 04:31 PM

I feel like I am betraying myself, but I have to say this.
Don't get me wrong, I ADORE the flavor text with the abilities of the units. Adore it. But will we get to know what they do? Cause some are rather vague.

For instance:
Quote:
Diving Assault (Upgrade) : Imperial Griffins have spent many years with their human allies, and have learned the tactical importance of weakening an enemy line in battle. When they take to the sky, they return and strike their opponents at the moment they think the greatest danger has passed.As the great Emperor Connor the 1st once said, "We're never outnumbered, for as long as we have a Griffin with a breast plate who can still fly."



I still have no idea what that does.
____________
"And if you're half as excited as I am, then we've discovered a whole new level of indifference." - David Mitchell

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