|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
posted September 06, 2012 04:25 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Well, thats what i hope they do, but our politicians in lead is blind to the problems. And so are every other country-leaders.
Hehe. They are not blind. You really think they just ignore that?
They are just afraid to lose votes. Once public consensus becomes hostile, they will change policy immediately.
Quote:
Well, thats where you are wrong. EU claims that Denmark's immigration politics is agaisnt human rights. So how soft are we compared to others?
You can get off the EU you know...Be like Switzerland. They stopped their import on immigrants.
Quote:
You are lucky then. Wich country are you from?
Kosovo... I know you might be shocked.
Quote:
I partly agree with salamandre. And freespeech should be allowed everywhere.
I was being sarcastic when I said "I am offended". I dont think freespeech in a game forum should be allowed.
The last time HC had "freespeech" or "Flamespeech" was a time where anti-ethnic insults were being thrown...
Regulated speech is always better in forums.
Quote:
Its a direct comment, but partly true..
If you prefer to call islamic followers cancer, ok.
It just is not scientific and in fact refers to gullible people reproducing too much and threatening a society.
Quote:
The main issue is religion. But then again, if there where no religion, people would fight in the name of something else..
Hmm, so, People are the issue?
The criminals that came in your country were the junk of the predecessor country.
Quote:
Actually, what is the issue? Religion, people, EU, or what else?
Issues? Soft laws criminalizing innocents, too much respect for religion-dogma-indoctrination, political interests etc.
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted September 06, 2012 05:41 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I'm afraid youre wrong, but neither of us is able to prove future.
You really should care. This discussion is world wide, and is the fault of many "bad" things. Right or Wrong, this is an important subject.
You don't have to quote every bit. If you don't care, then dont comment. Unless you agree or disagree.
I'm not looking into the future, I'm looking into the trend that trends take almost every single time they come into being, in this case the specific trend of immigration. In this case, the trend is that during a time of massive unrest, immigrants and refugees will skyrocket in nearby stable countries. But after about 8-9 years (most conflicts are done by that time, but even if the conflict lasts that long...) immigration and people otherwise fleeing the country will slowly trickle off in number, the decrease will quickly increase, and and immigration will become less than a trickle as it was before this whole thing began. We should see the decay of immigrants from Islamic countries soon.
The only importance I see to more of any race being spread around is that more ideas will be spread with them. Beyond that, there is nothing to be worried about. Yes the people have a bad reputation, and yes a small vocal minority does act in that negative way, but that is no reason to throw every single one of them under the bus. Every muslim I have met so far (a grand total of 20 natives and 10 immigrants) has been a rather nice and reasonable guy... except Jomil (Don't know if I spelled that right...). He's just sort of a jerk all-around though, and he doesn't use his religion to justify his jack-***ery unless he's feeling especially conceited...
I'm not quoting every bit because I didn't want to spend hours making a paragraph or two of rational argument against each of them.  It's not that I don't care about proving you wrong (after all, this is the OSM...) but that I don't have the time to do so in college.  Sorry to disappoint.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 06, 2012 06:32 PM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 18:42, 06 Sep 2012.
|
the problem isn't religion, right? people do bad things, not religion. (atheism also isn't the problem btw).
people like Hitler, Stalin, Breivik are simply psychopaths who justify their acts with an ideology. the ideology in itself is probably not important, as long as it gives them the role of the hero.
of course, I suppose that not every terrorist is a psychopath, but they probably all have some kind of mental issues, either being born with them or by living with people who also are mentally ill.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted September 06, 2012 08:10 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 20:11, 06 Sep 2012.
|
Quote:
the problem isn't religion, right? people do bad things, not religion. (atheism also isn't the problem btw).
people like Hitler, Stalin, Breivik are simply psychopaths who justify their acts with an ideology. the ideology in itself is probably not important, as long as it gives them the role of the hero.
that's a misleading categorization. hitler. stalin etc etc didnt kill people because of some atheist principle. atheism is simply not believing in god because there is no valid reason to. jihad (or crusades of middle ages for example) is to kill because the principle tells you to.
i'm no islamophobic westerner who thinks every muslim is a potential usame bin ladin, i'm from turkey, a secular state, but most of the population are muslims. my grandparents, not heavily religous, were muslims. i read about islamic history and theology too. and i can tell you this, religions are outdated ways of explaining the universe. they are not only peaceful doctrines about finding inner happiness. among religions abrahamic ones are the worst because they categorically identify non-members as heretics, people who belong to hell. among abrahamic religions islam is the worst because it combines judaism's 24/7 intrusiveness to every day life and christianity's missionary aspect: islam's ideal is to make every one a muslim and unlike christianity it has very specific orders about everyday life. now of course sociological aspects of life evolve in muslim countries like everywhere else and most muslims are not fanatical maniacs who live word by word acordding to Quran. But the thing is, Quran is a very problematic book and according to Islamic faith it is the unaltered, timeless word of god letter by letter. So yes, religion is a very very big part of the problem.
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted September 06, 2012 08:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
But the thing is, Quran is a very problematic book and according to Islamic faith it is the unaltered, timeless word of god letter by letter. So yes, religion is a very very big part of the problem.
As far as I know, the hadiths are the scriptures that cause problems because they scream about killing heretics.
The quran apparatnly does not order its reader to kill heretics.
This comes from what I read on wikipedia and the internet.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted September 06, 2012 08:27 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 20:28, 06 Sep 2012.
|
|
well according to Quran, if you're ehl-i kitap (jew or christian) you can keep on with your life as long as you pay some taxes. if you're a pagan, you must convert, if you're a murtedi (someone who converts from islam) you should be killed and there are some passages about killing the Musriks (people who do Sirk, saying someone or something is equal to allah) if they wont back down. but of course these are not acted out in today's world, like Torah says if a woman commits adultery she should be stoned to death but nobody even the most relegious jew wont do that living in a modern society. middle east should catch up with the times, that's the most urgent problem.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 06, 2012 08:33 PM |
|
|
Quote:
that's a misleading categorization. hitler. stalin etc etc didnt kill people because of some atheist principle. atheism is simply not believing in god because there is no valid reason to. jihad (or crusades of middle ages for example) is to kill because the principle tells you to.
I wasn't talking about atheism, I said any ideology. and they did not kill because of any principle, except theirs...
Quote:
But the thing is, Quran is a very problematic book and according to Islamic faith it is the unaltered, timeless word of god letter by letter. So yes, religion is a very very big part of the problem.
and why, apparently, 99.99999% of books in the world don't cause any problems, but holy books do?
you wouldn't take seriously any book that tells you to kill non-believer, but when it's the kuran, you suddenly believe it is the right thing to do? really, it has nothing to do with the book.
or maybe they were actually written by Satan claiming to be God.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted September 06, 2012 08:43 PM |
|
|
"and why, apparently, 99.99999% of books in the world don't cause any problems, but holy books do?"
because they claim to be above human mind and timeless. you can read plato's The State, you can learn from it, you can enjoy it, but you say "that slavery stuff is outdated, well plato was a man of his time." The holy books on the other hand deny their possibility to outdate in any kind of way. So we have armies of theologians saying that part is metaphorical and that part is conditional and so on. But there are also people who think what those theologians do is sugarcoding the books. That is okay if you are not religious but it's not if you are religous because then, you act out the not-sugarcoded version.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 06, 2012 09:08 PM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 21:08, 06 Sep 2012.
|
|
I could write a book and claim the same thing and people would just believe the author is stupid and arrogant (well, unless they 100% agree with what I say I guess)
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted September 06, 2012 09:35 PM |
|
|
well, in a totally theorical world what you say is true. but remember religions have an enormous cultural power because of history. people construct their identities on them. that's why when a new cult is established almost everybody thinks it's for lunatics but when the same amount of bullsnow is told by a an imam or priest or rabbi, people seem to think it's wise. don't get me wrong, i get your point and i am against discrimination of minorities too. all i'm saying is religion is not as innocent as you put it and most of the time it is the very cause of discrimination in the first place. here's a good example from a richard dawkins book:
"As a typical example, in 2004 James
Nixon, a twelve-year-old boy in Ohio, won the right in court to
wear a T-shirt to school bearing the words 'Homosexuality is a sin,
Islam is a lie, abortion is murder. Some issues are just black and
white!'The school told him not to wear the T-shirt - and the boy's
parents sued the school. The parents might have had a conscionable
case if they had based it on the First Amendment's guarantee of
freedom of speech. But they didn't: indeed, they couldn't, because
free speech is deemed not to include 'hate speech'. But hate only has
to prove it is religious, and it no longer counts as hate. So, instead
of freedom of speech, the Nixons' lawyers appealed to the constitutional
right to freedom of religion. Their victorious lawsuit was
supported by the Alliance Defense Fund of Arizona, whose business
it is to 'press the legal battle for religious freedom'"
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 06, 2012 09:51 PM |
|
|
|
I agree with what you say, but the fact it is religion is irrelevant. if any kind of crap had been repeated throughout the whole history, people (well, not all of course) would probably believe in it, whether it is religious or not.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted September 07, 2012 02:03 AM |
|
|
Only thing good about religion is blues men singing the gospel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cou_qZjc_yI
|
|
OhfOrfSAkE
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted September 08, 2012 10:36 PM |
|
|
Religion isn't the problem. There's nothing wrong with having a belief not based on the observable. It's some people within any common variable, which can be a religion as an example, who're the problem. Allowing them to cast the blame on their actions upon religion, or anything else for that matter, is missing the problem.
Now, regarding the actual topic. I had made a post earlier, which I deleted. I think this is a much more suitable response:
____________
Living time backwards
|
|
GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
|
|
posted September 09, 2012 12:18 PM |
|
|
|
Lol, I love those comics. Is it true that nordic countries are 10 times better than USA, UK and France combined?
|
|
disturbed-Gnu
Supreme Hero
Pro Bacon Vodka Brewer
|
|
posted September 10, 2012 02:22 AM |
|
|
Hmm, I'm not going to follow this thread anylonger.
This is a subject where every person have their own opinions and experiences. And also, there is a big difrence between countries too.
Maybe this thread was a stupid idea anyway. It doesn't belong on sites where all kinds of people from every culture can have a profile.
Plus, there is a chance of racism boiling up.
I will always have my opinion, and you will have yours. Simple as that!
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted September 10, 2012 08:49 AM |
|
|
Yeah, it's always better to post such threads in forums where people are more likely to agree with you. 
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted September 10, 2012 03:52 PM |
|
Edited by Seraphim at 16:00, 10 Sep 2012.
|
Quote:
Yeah, it's always better to post such threads in forums where people are more likely to agree with you.
That made me laugh. This is the best thing I have read in HC.
Quote:
This is a subject where every person have their own opinions and experiences. And also, there is a big difrence between countries too.
Isn't this fact that makes this discussion healthy? Everybody has his\her own opinion.What is more important, is that people should be able to agree with facts. An opinion defying what would be considered rational is unwanted. In this case, generalization, prejudices and logical fallacies are unwanted.
Quote:
Maybe this thread was a stupid idea anyway. It doesn't belong on sites where all kinds of people from every culture can have a profile.
Plus, there is a chance of racism boiling up.
This argument is actually so backward that I dont know where to begin.
Firstly, a forum where all kinds of people can share their insights is a good thing. Forums where only: nazis, nationalits, religious people and so on can join are completely unconstructive. They are there just to fuel their emotions.
If that is what you sought, you can happily participate in those "Discussions" elsewhere.
Quote:
I will always have my opinion, and you will have yours. Simple as that!
Translated: I will always have my prejudices. I dont care about reasoning.
I am sorry if I put my words into your mouth but having an opinion is OK. But "opinions" are sometimes wrong, especially when they are in fact prejudices. When you go with said opinions into public, dont expect people to agree with you.
Hint: If you want to participate in emotional discussions, visit you tube, drop a controversial comment and enjoy the ragefest.
The youtube like-dislike system is hilarious. Any opinion that does not sooth the masses that are watching said video, depends what video, will dislike your comment.
Its hilarious in political videos.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 10, 2012 04:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Yeah, it's always better to post such threads in forums where people are more likely to agree with you.
but internet is for discussing with people who don't agree with you. whereas I usually avoid to do it in real life.
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted September 10, 2012 06:33 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Hmm, I'm not going to follow this thread anylonger.
Your choice, I guess... but that won't stop discussion you know.
Quote:
This is a subject where every person have their own opinions and experiences. And also, there is a big difference between countries too.
Maybe this thread was a stupid idea anyway. It doesn't belong on sites where all kinds of people from every culture can have a profile.
Exactly why one would make a discussion about it, I would think. That is, in essence, what discussion is about. People of different backgrounds and opinions come together and try to figure out what is fact, what is fiction and who, if anyone, has the best viewpoint on life (or if everyone has to revise their opinions, viewpoints, etc when confronted with verifiable facts). The freedom to talk with people of differing and often contrary viewpoints is how one grows morally, mentally and how one matures. So rage quitting because no one supports your viewpoint is counter-productive. Instead, take this as a chance to learn, grow and change so that you have a better understanding of the world and the peoples that live on it.
Of course, you're not going to read that since you aren't following this thread anymore, but I think it is a good point for everyone to remember. Logical, moral and all sorts of discussions are sort of why the OSM exists, after all.
Quote:
Plus, there is a chance of racism boiling up.
As the OP has many examples of this, you have forced me to sarcastically say, "You don't say." I would post the meme, but then I would feel sort of bad for resorting to that...
Quote:
I will always have my opinion, and you will have yours. Simple as that!
And that is why discussions exist in the first place. If you don't have someone that disagrees with you on something, then you really don't ask the question, "Well what if X (The subject being discussed) is wrong?" In essence, no growth can really be had. And if the opinion contrary to your own appears to be the most true, then you should not be afraid to change or modify your opinion! In other words, agreeing on a subject is not only unnecessary in a discussion, but also actually kills a discussion as there is nothing to discus.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
oHfOrfSakE
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted September 10, 2012 07:04 PM |
|
|
I thought disturbed gnu was more dissapointed in the thread not taking a direction towards the different subjects he listed. In stead the thread went very broad with very generalized view points, and then directly to off-topic.
Then again, I may have read him wrong.
____________
Living time backwards
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
