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Salamandre
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posted January 07, 2016 11:12 PM |
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What you see as aggressive? The truth standing up to propaganda? Yes, it can sound harsh sometimes.
Now allow me to quote what you originally wrote:
Shares said:
In fact, not long ago it was revealed that this recent trend of right wing populist, conservative parties (like Front National, Tea Party, UKIP or the Swedish Democrats) do receive quite a bit of funding from, for instance, Russia.
Which is backed by zero proofs. To prove your claims, you quote a wikipedia article that, not only it does not back anything mentioned above on a rational base, but it also includes subjective comments made by x or y from the german central leftists. How is this any conclusive other than showing how hard is to find an objective article, not bearing an ideological agenda?
Shares said:
You're being unnecessarily aggressive. I said that what I knew was that Front National had gotten loans from a Russian bank and that they had some contact with Russian officials, both which has been confirmed.
What? You start again? What contact with russian officials? And about what? Where it has been confirmed?
Quote:
And then I said that other parties similar to Front National has gotten more direct support from Russian officials.
Which is, seeing how fallacious are the documents you provided regarding the french party, probably also wrong.
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Shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted January 08, 2016 02:27 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Now allow me to quote what you originally wrote:
Shares said:
In fact, not long ago it was revealed that this recent trend of right wing populist, conservative parties (like Front National, Tea Party, UKIP or the Swedish Democrats) do receive quite a bit of funding from, for instance, Russia.
Which is specifically what I clarified in the next post.
Shares said:
It's known that Russia is directly funding several of that kind of party across Europe. I didn't mean to say that Front National is one of the funded parties, but it is part of the same group of parties. As far as Front National goes I only know that they've gotten loans from Russian banks and do have at least some contact with Russian government officials, but that's about it. I wouldn't know if Front National has received "free" money nor if their contacts are strong and cooperative, but that is the case for some of those parties. But saying that getting a loan from a Russian bank is constitutes "being funded by Putin" is exactly the kind of media sensationalism I'm talking about.
But it seems that the whole being pals with Russia is a touchy subject. What was it Le Pen Senior said? "Putin is a knightly protector of our European Christian heritage"?
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Corribus
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posted January 08, 2016 03:15 AM |
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What does any of this have to do with Islam?
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Shares
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posted January 08, 2016 03:44 AM |
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These right wing populist parties are highly relevant to the topic of Muslim immigrants in Europe, in my opinion.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted January 08, 2016 04:04 AM |
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Maybe, but your posts certainly aren't.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Shares
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posted January 08, 2016 05:37 AM |
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2016 06:48 AM |
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Edited by artu at 06:50, 08 Jan 2016.
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Salamandre said:
I have a funny anecdote for you, as I subscribed recently at the Socialist party forum, because i wanted to have an intelligent discussion, without moderation or internet trolls. Or after posting my arguments, one of them asked me to name a single intellectual which backs the extreme right (there is this much spread idea that only dumb people vote extreme right).
Then, I gave a long list of well know intellectuals, modern philosophers, economists, historians, journalists, each of them sharing some of the extreme right ideas, be it on the Europe, on immigration, on the Iraq/Libya/Syria wars, on the free health care, and other details. The guy laughed and then told me those intellectuals I quoted are traitors to the country as they switched side and now are nazis. So it does not count, I still did not give a name.
Well, his was a dumbass reaction for sure, but to begin with, your reply isn't exactly holding much water either.
There are exceptions, for sure, but there is a good reason why people don't relate intellectuals and the extreme-right in general. Extreme-right plays the violin to one of people's most primitive side: Security through group identity. Intellectuals, on the other hand, are the opposite, it is their own reasoning that motivates them, not group psychology. Christopher Hitchens, a true intellectual that I admire, supported the Iraq War, because of his own conclusions. His stance doesn't wash away my respect for him, it certainly doesn't transform him into a Nazi, but more importantly, it doesn't turn him into an extreme-rightist, either.
We live in different countries, where you live, even the extreme-right is respectful to others to a degree, because it's nerfed. The ideal of "liberte, egalite, fraternite" has a unique history in France. Where I live, even the leftists can be a little nationalist sometimes, it's a quite young republic, build upon the ashes of a multi-cultural empire, with many nations seen as backstabbers by the founders. So, while you sometimes grow tired of overzealous leftism, I am very very cautious when it comes to nationalism. It's an ideology based on drawing the attention of masses to some group they'd easily like to hate and telling people to take pride in something that is absolutely coincidental: Where you're born.
I'm aware we're driving our conclusions with quite a different social background, I also understand your concerns about unregulated, massive Muslim immigration. But to sympathize with the extreme right because of it, is not a very wise thing to do. Extreme right is traditionally a set of ideologies feeding on animosity. I think that's intrinsically embedded into its mind set in a non-modifiable way.
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Salamandre
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posted January 08, 2016 12:26 PM |
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@artu, this is a serious matter, don't fall into the category "extreme right wing is evil" generalities, when you didn't read a word from that party program, when you have no idea to which intellectuals I refer, when you even don't know that what people animated by a combative ideology call "extreme wing" in France is only a populist party, certainly, but whose program is 100% similar to the 2000' right wing's program (Valery Giscard d'Estaing). When not a single objective intellectual would call this program as "extreme right" but medias on purpose avoid spreading those details.
Then you didn't properly read my text, I said those intellectuals support SOME of the extreme right wing proposals. Not that they are voting extreme right. I went for the detail, not for generalities.
The mistake is to think a party based on national identity and sovereignty recovering is deadpan, it can't be alive nor can't learn, it can't understand, accommodate nor mutate to fit the actuality, to sum, you just think people voting for are dumb. Or this is where you are dead wrong, and why I am insisting that a lot of well-known intellectuals support A LOT of political decisions from that party. And by that, they take a huge risk of becoming inaudible, the censure is bloody.
Because they are sensed while remaining realistic, they ask for a strict application of the law in a country where the crime and corruption became an activity without serious consequences, where borders allow anyone passing, especially those with harmful intentions, where it became impossible to discuss anything related to immigration without instantly being labeled as fascist, where the peasants are decimated by Europe economical constraints, where a country decisions must first pass by Bruxelles bureaucrats, where people lost the hope and the feeling they are at HOME. So please, this is a survival major topic, and all you do is thumping cheap generalities without being correctly informed.
"Patriotism is loving your country. Nationalism is hating other countries"
-De Gaulle.
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artu
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posted January 08, 2016 05:17 PM |
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Okay, Sal, I'm not informed in great detail about current internal politics of France and surely, I haven't read the party's program. But what I had always witnessed both in here and in situations where I did follow foreign extreme-right politics, it was always them who came up with "cheap generalizations" almost as a rule.
You say, the extreme-right in France isn't really extreme-right and people who vote for them are not dumb. (They don't have to be dumb, btw, that's not how or why extreme-right rises.) I sincerely ask you, why does everybody else who are not voting for them calling them extreme-right then? If I'm not mistaken, they are still the majority in France. You don't hesitate to call that side of the equation "brainwashed fools." So, how does that work?
I know there are many issues regarding Muslim immigrants and I'm not naive enough to think they are all caused by evil, racist French men. I don't think they are as covered up as you suggest though, we read about them all the time. But when you're talking about "survival" and similar stuff, usually, any other member here from some immigrant taking Western European country tells you that you are exaggerating. And to be honest, you don't give the impression that you are completely unbiased about the subject, it seems more like you are reacting to overzealous multi-culturalism or leftism (whatever you call it, leftism is something very different here and also by the book) by overreactionary rightism, it's just like a pendulum effect.
When I occasionally see the streets of France on the news, it certainly doesn't look like the "Baghdad-like city" you describe to us.
And if all this seems too general to you, please do post the part of the party program or/with the name of the intellectuals that you mention.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted January 08, 2016 06:44 PM |
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Leftism is different here too, but that doesn't mean anything to the West... just a small observation.
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Salamandre
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posted January 08, 2016 09:58 PM |
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@artu,
I continued to call it "extreme-right wing" because within this name I am sure everyone knows what political structure I am talking about: The Front National. Now the problem is that you probably don't master the french very well, so is hard for me to find easy examples with explanations why it is not the "generic extreme right wing" you describe, however I have a short video for you which, in 2 minutes, concentrates then detonates all the humbug about the topic.
Before you watch those 2 minutes which are CRUCIAL to see before engaging any serious discussion about what is right, what is left then what is outside those two politic pillars, let me explain to you what is the video about:
person 1: journalist
person 2: Alain Juppe, which represents the second party of France, the Republicans (right wing). This party started in 1960, had several names, in 1990 its name was French democratic Union (UDF). Alain Juppe will certainly be candidate of the right to next elections, replacing Sarkozy.
-journalist: "in 1990 you and your party were discussing about immigration conflicts." then follows a short documentary on that period political realities, all the parties are presented, their leaders and propositions. Follows a short speech made by Valery Giscard d'Estaing, at that moment french president and president of UDF. He says:
"France isn't an immigration country and we have to take all measures possible to get to a zero quota immigration."
(public clapping)
-journalist continues: "I got your party program from 1995, let's look at it:"
1) Control of borders
2) Zero quota immigration
3) National preference
4) Incompatibility between Islam and French culture
-Alain Juppe: tries to evade the ineluctable issue, babbling something about economical immigration, nothing on topic.
-journalist attacks again: "this list is 100% identical to the program of what you call today "the extreme right wing". It is YOUR program from before!"
(silence)
-Alain Juppe (very embarassed): "well yes. but today I think it was an error."
-journalist attacks again: "but you voted for it, before!"
-Alain Juppe, "well yes. Good game, you got me here, congrats".
VIDEO
I think is pretty neat. We assist at a political circus where people send each other the most eclectic of insults, while on the bottom of things, they share exactly the same views.
I will answer to your question about leftists later. But my answer to Shares was complete on the topic. Shares proved that the wikipedia article about front national is politically left oriented and made to slander. And it works, as after reading, people confuse suppositions with facts.
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artu
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posted January 08, 2016 10:55 PM |
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Well, that part he shared is from the National Front article and it only consists of information and statements from both sides with related sources below, so I don't see how it is leftist or rightist. It seemed impartial enough to me.
It was interesting to learn Le Pen the daughter expelled her own father from the party btw, here's the stuff for a terrific biopic.
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Salamandre
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posted January 08, 2016 11:44 PM |
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Right, an article must be impartial. This is an impartial article:
"Russian bank loan
In November 2014, Marine Le Pen confirmed a €9 million loan from the First Czech Russian Bank (FCRB) in Moscow to the National Front.[196] Senior FN officials from the party's political bureau informed Mediapart that this was the first installment of a €40 million loan, although Ms Le Pen has disputed this. This loan is meant to prepare future electoral campaigns and to be repaid progressively. Marine Le Pen has publicly disclosed all the rejection letters that French banks have sent to her concerning her loan requests.[198] Since November 2014, she insists that if a French bank agrees to give her a loan, she would break her contract with the FCBR, but she has not received any other counter-propositions."
This says the truth: MLP contacted all french banks, which have all refused to loan money (proofs in hands). Then she contacted a russian bank which agreed. Period.
Now I will add to it the leftist ideology it had in order to bring the reader share a specific point of view:
"Russian bank loan
In November 2014, Marine Le Pen confirmed a €9 million loan from the First Czech Russian Bank (FCRB) in Moscow to the National Front.[196] Senior FN officials from the party's political bureau informed Mediapart that this was the first installment of a €40 million loan, although Ms Le Pen has disputed this. [188][196] The Independent said the loans "take Moscow's attempt to influence the internal politics of the EU to a new level."[188] Reinhard Bütikofer stated, "It's remarkable that a political party from the motherland of freedom can be funded by Putin's sphere - the largest European enemy of freedom."[197] Marine Le Pen argued that it was not a donation from the Russian government but a loan from a private Russian bank because no other bank would give her a loan. This loan is meant to prepare future electoral campaigns and to be repaid progressively. Marine Le Pen has publicly disclosed all the rejection letters that French banks have sent to her concerning her loan requests.[198] Since November 2014, she insists that if a French bank agrees to give her a loan, she would break her contract with the FCBR, but she has not received any other counter-propositions.[199][200] Le Pen accused the banks of collusion with the current government[198] In April 2015, a Russian hacker group published texts and emails between Timur Prokopenko, a member of Putin's administration, and Konstantin Rykov, a former Duma deputy with ties to France, discussing Russian financial support to the National Front in exchange for its support of Russia's annexation of Crimea.[201]"
So, what are the adds:
The Independent said the loans "take Moscow's attempt to influence the internal politics of the EU to a new level."[188] Reinhard Bütikofer stated, "It's remarkable that a political party from the motherland of freedom can be funded by Putin's sphere - the largest European enemy of freedom."
What this says: that Moscow gave the loans in order to influence EU internal politics. But there is nowhere in that article specified the loan is from "Moscow as a political entity" and the fact that it may be caused by political ambitions is not proved neither, at this only moment, all we know is that this is a borrowed loan from a BANK. Period.
Then, even better. Reinhard Bütikofer. What a purely subjective comment from a german LEFTIST does in a wikipedia article, which is supposed to relate facts, not individual opinions? And what this guy says? Putin is the largest European enemy of freedom. This is how we talk about Russia's president on wikipedia?!
Next add:
In April 2015, a Russian hacker group published texts and emails between Timur Prokopenko, a member of Putin's administration, and Konstantin Rykov, a former Duma deputy with ties to France, discussing Russian financial support to the National Front in exchange for its support of Russia's annexation of Crimea."
Igor and Ivan play monopoly and Ivan gets Rue de la paix 
What this gibberish is saying: that two russian guys, one having "ties with france" (what ties? where we can read about that?) discussed in a mail about some russian financial support to FN. In exchange FN will support Russia. Which is the biggest non sense, ever, as FN is the most hated political structure, so its supposedly support to Russia will only comfort the idea that russians are indeed evil. You don't ally with the devil if you want to look respectable. But the simple reader will not take a step back and see the trap. He will only conclude that a) Russia is bad, b) A french party allied with the bad guy and was payed for that.
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My personal opinion on this: I have little doubts that underground dealings are ongoing, these are politics. There is no reason to think a leader may be more honest than another, and also there are plenty of reasons that underground dealings are sometimes beneficial, especially if they remain secret. But, from a objective perspective, there are no documents proving this or other deal is done. All is cleverly suggested as being facts, while we talk there about individual opinions. I dislike when I see such things.
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artu
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posted January 09, 2016 12:38 AM |
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Edited by artu at 00:56, 09 Jan 2016.
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Well, it also quotes how Le Pen answers to the accusations and when a bank loan causes such public controversy, I dont think it's out of place to mention the accusations themselves to begin with, as long as you clarify they are opinionated statements of individuals, of course. Still, now that you mention it, the Independence quote is not totally necessary, I agree with that to a degree. However, the hacked mail from a member of the Putin administration talking about backing up NF financially for a political agenda is very relevant and I wouldnt disregard it in such an article either.
Anyway, Corb is gonna fry us for going off topic again, let's try to keep it about immigration mostly.
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Salamandre
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posted January 09, 2016 01:02 AM |
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I disagree about so called off topic. The immigration, as it is now, is violently criticized by SOME of European political parties, not all. If people keep attacking the integrity of such parties and their voters, attack or doubt about their inner motivations, suggest that their vocals are the result of underground deals, suggest that all this is a money thing, then the whole seriousness of such proposals is trashed and even their message, serious or not, will be ignored.
When you warn about incoming danger and you are retorted "you are corrupted, I won't listen", first you have to defend yourself.
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Elodin
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posted January 10, 2016 08:07 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Then the mass rape which occurred in Cologne (Koln) on the 1st of January, done by almost 1000 refugees (100+ official complaints for rape and sexual harassment from german population), then covered up until the 4th by ALL major medias, until it literally exploded in their face and force them to acknowledge the disaster, isn't going to contribute much to this "peace" message.
Indeed, the sexual assaults were intended to be a message to all of Germany. This was a rape of Germany by Islamic supremists. They have arrived in Germany not as peace lovers seeking to become Germans but as conquerors.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2016 08:24 PM |
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Elodin, what are you smoking? People who were raised in a culture in which women who "dress suggestive" are considered enablers, act according to that. It's culture shock. Yes, it is a real issue. But it's not "conquerors" trying to spread Islamic supremacy.
My country has been dealing with the same thing for decades. Pious people from villages migrate to the big city, they are used to women in scarfs who don't even make eye contact with men if they are strangers, so, when they suddenly meet women who are dressed in skirts, who smile to men out of common courtesy, who dress sexy etc, they take it as a come on.
It's not ideological, it's sociological.
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Salamandre
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posted January 10, 2016 08:56 PM |
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You might be wrong, to always seek for an historical or sociological ground to explain/compare. We face an unprecedented phenomenon and I don't think we can figure what's going on so easy.
Today I read in news that the german justice minister told the crimes were probably coordinated and he thinks it was a long time prepared attack. More than 500 crimes are reported, as today.
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artu
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posted January 10, 2016 09:02 PM |
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So, to spread Islamic Supremacy, they grab infidel women's ass?
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Salamandre
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posted January 10, 2016 09:17 PM |
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heh, joke as long as you still can. Btw, from 500 reports, only 200 or so are about sexual harassment. The others are about people being hurt, punched, lynched. I don't need Cologne events to back my belief that Islam is a conquering ideology. Those people are not immigrants, I know what is an immigrant, I am one.
When a chance is given to you by a far more advanced country, with a superior culture, you don't snow, say thanks and adapt. I also had a set of moral values which may look as a religion, I had my habits, in teaching, in talking, in all my social interactions. I saw that some of my ancient behaviors were not so appreciated and I changed them, tried to honor my host, as I needed him, not vice-versa. A change was given to me to fulfill my potential.
These people move from country to country but keep all their close environment as at home: same behaviors, same clothes, same ideas, same language, same crimes. For me this is not immigration, this is conquest, a form of. The simple fact that not even 1% from the new born has a french name is sufficient. It saddens me.
Future will show who is right.
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