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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 10, 2015 09:15 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 21:15, 10 Feb 2015.
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Nazism must be eliminated, that's all I know. Whoever shares this ideology.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 10, 2015 09:20 PM |
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Well, since their new hobby is to burn houses of Turkish immigrants in Germany, I specifically share your sentiments about the ideology itself, however, I dont think you should let Nazis turn you into counter-Nazis. That would be like losing on a whole other scale.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 10, 2015 09:29 PM |
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Well, it's complicated. The immigrants are often themselves the reason for their removal, especially if we count all rumors we hear about Europe swarming with uneducated, antisocial elements responsible for drastic increase of criminal incidents. But such open neo-nazi behaviour like we can see in many countries with the according symbolics must not be tolerated. We have become too soft.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 10, 2015 09:36 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 21:54, 10 Feb 2015.
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artu said:
Well, since their new hobby is to burn houses of Turkish immigrants in Germany
The Ukrainian nazis hobbies are a bit more extreme. For instance, they like to torn women to shreds or rip off children faces in front of their parents. This is beyond atrocious. And USA intends to give around three billions of $ worth of high-tech weaponry to these people. If the peace treaties soon to be signed fail, expect to see millions of civilians in Ukraine being slaughtered in the next year.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 10, 2015 09:39 PM |
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I am not suggesting to be soft on Nazism, I'm saying when you express the idea as "the solution is to eridicate them" there's an irony in there. Massive immigration indeed causes many problems and not everybody who is complaining automatically becomes a Nazi, but a Nazi doesnt become a Nazi because he has legit complaints either, that's something else.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 11, 2015 01:20 AM |
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artu said:
Well, since their new hobby is to burn houses of Turkish immigrants in Germany, I specifically share your sentiments about the ideology itself, however, I dont think you should let Nazis turn you into counter-Nazis. That would be like losing on a whole other scale.
I believe in using violence against people using violence and peaceful means toward peaceful people. I am a centrist. A -perfectly centered one- . *raises his machete with a mean face*
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted February 11, 2015 05:00 PM |
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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f7213118-b057-11e4-a2cc-00144feab7de.html
Quote:
Poland stands ready to assist the US should President Barack Obama decide to send arms to the Ukrainian military in its war against pro-Russian separatists, according to the Polish defence minister.
Poland has been one of the most hawkish EU governments during the Ukraine crisis and has led calls for stronger measures against Russia, which is accused of sending troops and heavy weaponry to the separatists in eastern Ukraine.
The debate over whether to arm Kiev has gathered steam in the US in recent weeks, with senior officials openly discussing providing defensive weapons to the country.
“Russia must take into account that the US, or the West in general, can make a decision to arm Ukraine and that it is a card that is held by the West, that can be used in the future, if not today,” defence minister Tomasz Siemoniak told the Financial Times. “The Polish position is that we should not say that this card will never be played.”
Warsaw’s support for any US move to arm Ukraine would put it at odds with Berlin, which is opposed to sending weapons to the conflict zone. Polish officials have previously stressed that they are open to selling weapons to Kiev, but has stopped short of suggesting arms could be provided as military support...
“The United States is such a close ally to Poland . . . It is difficult for me to imagine a situation that if there is a question that is important for European security, we would not be supporting the United States,” Mr Siemoniak, who is also deputy prime minister of Poland, said in an interview. “We are not afraid of co-operation with Ukraine in the military area.”
The declaration of support by Poland is the most pronounced yet of the US’s European allies, alothugh Britain’s defence minister Philip Hammond said the UK was prepared to consider a broad range of future courses of action, should Washington change its course.
This weekend’s Munich Security Conference was dominated by a split in opinion over whether the west should arm Kiev, as support for the shift in strategy gathers pace in Washington as a means to force Russia back to the negotiating table.
Nato secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg said on Saturday that members of the military alliance had begun talks over sending weapons to the country, talks that Mr Siemoniak confirmed Poland was party to.
And Lithuania will follow. The Russians have become too provocative to ignore. The "rebels" are getting supplies and ammunition from somewhere. For those who remember, Poland was part of the Warsaw Pact, and Polish troops under Russian command would have been sent in had war broken out in Western Europe during the Cold War. After the forced occupation of Poland ended with the fall of the USSR, there are many there who better understand Russian policy over its alleged suzerainty of its republics. That mentality that didn't die when the USSR did, at least not with its current leadership.
Naturally, the worst case scenario of arming a conflict is an increased escalation (aka 1960s Vietnam)... the best case scenario is a much swifter conclusion. From a sociological standpoint, radicalism in the Ukraine is (relatively) more mild compared to mid-20th century Vietnam or the Middle East, so sending arms can be a smarter idea as opposed to in a climate like Syria where things are much more hopeless.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 11, 2015 05:30 PM |
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Poland was the most difficult member of the Eastern Bloc before it disappeared and has traditional anti-Russian sentiments. Their foreign policy is way too servile toward the US though so I doubt that it's just Russophobia.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted February 11, 2015 06:00 PM |
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Mutual interests does not equal servile.
If Poland's interests corresponded with Germany, you would have used a different adjective.
Poland isn't going to be the last ex-bloc country to officially see things the way Poland does. Calling it now.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted February 11, 2015 08:06 PM |
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oh, the former commies which run Lithuania will do anything Washington tells them to do. There's no doubt about it.
even our lesbo president screams her bloody lungs out that "once ukraine falls, we're next", which is an absolute load of epic bullcrap.
the rooskie has been marching here for the last 25 years. still hadn't arrived yet.
and it's about 100 or so kilometers from where I live to the border of Kaliningrad.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 11, 2015 08:18 PM |
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Well, what can I say, some people in Russia ride for such distances to their jobs and back home everyday.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 11, 2015 08:18 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
Mutual interests does not equal servile.
If Poland's interests corresponded with Germany, you would have used a different adjective.
Poland isn't going to be the last ex-bloc country to officially see things the way Poland does. Calling it now.
Really? What are the US and Poland's mutual interests? How do these mutual interest involve openly insulting not only the Russian state but also the Russians as people by claiming that they started WW2 or that Auschwitz was liberated by Ukrainians, to name only the recent examples? Where is Poland's interest in openly provoking a much stronger neighbour (and where the risk for the US in that)? In case you missed this, the Polish foreign minister himself admitted that his country is the US' *read the article, CoC censorship*. I know that many of you guys in the US like to think that whoever supports your foreign policy does so voluntarily and has only his/her country's well-being at heart but that's usually a nonsense at best.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 11, 2015 09:30 PM |
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I think what he means is, cooperating with the US instead of Russia would be the better (or actually, the less worse) option, since Russia is traditionally a very authoritative boss. That's why he's giving you the example of how things were with Poland in Cold War. Of course, Ukraine's quite a different situation if it's culturally interlinked with Russia as strong as Orzie claims. (Sister country he says, a rhetoric that sounds familiar to me, since our politicians use it for Northern Cyprus.) But I dont know, history has shown us, sometimes the worst kind of conflict and war is between those "sisters and brothers."
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 11, 2015 09:56 PM |
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I might agree if Poland was in a position to choose a "boss" or be submitted to some "boss". But it's not - it's already in the EU and NATO, it has a clear "boss" and has no real reason to provoke Russia on its own, apart from some historical complexes which have no place in serious politics (that'd be like Bulgaria supplying the Greeks in Cyprus with weapons and saying that those who fought vs. the Entente in the Dardanelles weren't really Turks but descendant of the Balkan people and probably even Greeks because, you know, the Ottoman Empire and stuff). I mentioned it once regarding Ukraine but it's also valid about Poland - Russia is a neighbour, the US is thousands of kilometres away. It is never in your strategic interest to quarrel with your neighbour, relying on the support of some power which keeps safe distance and can use you to absorb hits should things go bad. That's one of the reasons why the German government is cautious about Ukraine (and why it's getting criticized by the US), they actually dig that and have more independent foreign policy to express this understanding, although not in a straight-forward way of course.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 11, 2015 10:08 PM |
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All that I can say that from the mid fithteenth century Russo-Polish relations were, gently speaking, difficult. We were involved in countless wars, each of our states controlled another (yes, there was atime when Russia was in Poland's hands) but the greatest Polish hatred towards Russia came in XX century, when we were in war in early 1920s and after WWII, when Poland joined the Russian (Soviet) sphere of influence. Poles have for the last century (and also nowadays) considered themselves as part of Western Europe, therefore practically Russian occupation up to 1989 was very painful time for patriots.
Recent situation in Ukraine reminded Poles of the Russian expansionism and since our country desperately wants to remain in Western Europe (people in here, including me, are very fond of EU), therefore it tries to counteract Russian intervention in Eastern Ukraine, because it is not that far away from us and Poles do not want to be controlled by Russians. I agree that what Mr. Schetyna said recently was quite inapropriate (Radosław Sikorski was much bettern minister of foreign affairs in my opinion) but it reflects quite good attitude of Poles towards current Russian government. On one hand we are afraid of it, on another we want to deminish the threat by laughing at it.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted February 11, 2015 10:12 PM |
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Historically, good relations more often exist between countries that don't border each other, not the other way around.
Maybe, Poland just so happens to more readily accept the common-sense analysis, which is that Russia has expansionist aspirations, and after being heeled by Russia for 50 years, maybe it doesn't like that idea. You don't need to be literally threatened in the sense of losing your country to still want to curb certain activity in the world. Poland wants to be an EU country. It doesn't want to be a 2nd Belarus. Feelings towards Russia are very negative in Poland (perhaps in a prejudice sort of way, which I don't approve of, but then again, it shouldn't be surprising either).
You keep insisting that all feelings in Eastern Europe that might be favorable (maybe not completely favorable, but far more favorable than alternatives) towards US policy have to be the result of oh-so-evil US manipulation. It's a presumption that is built on fantasy, simply because you're not one of those people. There are plenty of Eastern Europeans that would prefer a stronger response to Russia, because they don't like Russia or what it represents. That's all there is to it. This decision from Poland is sprung out of popular opinion. It's not like 95% of Poland is bemoaning the idea of agreeing with Obama's ideas, and there's this wicked puppet state in Poland that is going along with the US anyway.
And riding on other country's plans doesn't mean you're a puppet. Generally speaking, not even the United States is willing to act independently, and it's still the most powerful country in the world. If the US isn't even willing to be that brazen, what makes you think that Poland would be? Multinational planning is the status quo of today. You do things together, or as much as you can manage, because that's obviously exceedingly more effective than having 50 different countries all responding to Russia in a completely different way. If I punch my fist into a wall 50 times, I will not break the wall. If the strength of my punch is multiplied by 50, and I punch the wall once, the wall will break. That's how it works in physics, and that's how it works in politics also.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 11, 2015 10:52 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
You keep insisting that all feelings in Eastern Europe that might be favorable (maybe not completely favorable, but more favorable) towards US policy have to be the result of oh-so-evil US manipulation. It's a presumption that is built on fantasy, simply because you're not one of those people. There are plenty of Eastern Europeans that would prefer a stronger response to Russia, because they don't like Russia or what it represents. That's all there is to it.
No, that's not what I say. I say that I can name you the organizations and people in Bulgaria which/who are paid by the US to conduct its interest in Bulgaria and that such organizations and people can be found all over the former Eastern bloc as part of organized policy that can be traced relatively easily to the White House, Pentagon, CIA, etc. (others are paid by Moscow but they're less represented, at least at the moment). The childish anti-Americanism that you speak of is usually spread among marginal groups which have less than 10% of political support and which I myself tend to stay away from.
Fantasies are thinking that your government doesn't use other governments and people to further its own goals though. I don't know what information you get in the US about Ukraine but from the several media articles in US media I've read it's along the lines "Putin escalates conflict, Putin is crazy, civilians killed during separatist attacks, NATO reports that another 10 million Russian soldiers have crossed the border...". Same things are advertised here, although more mildly and with one 1 article for the victims in Donbass for each 5 articles where Russia's evil policy is analysed and some NATO general says what should be done to stop the Russian aggression. I haven't seen anything in the US media about the Maidan shootings, the nearly constant bombardment of Donetsk's civilian districts by the Ukrainian army and "National Guard", the neo-Nazis among the Ukrainian "patriots" who fight against the separatists and their atrocities, the suspicions about the Malaysian plane being shot down by Ukrainian fighter and so on. None of these things are discussed on government level locally, as they never happened or are certainly wrong/lies. You can see the same blessed government ignorance in Poland but with added flavour of throwing insults at Russia. There was something like that in Romania too a while ago but they're quiet recently. In general though, you have the same black-and-white picture on governmental level across the eastern NATO border where the emphasis is on the bad things which Russia does and everything related to the legitimacy and actions of the Ukrainian government that might discredit it is silently ignored. How convenient is that?
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 11, 2015 11:22 PM |
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@Zenofex:
Of course it isn't convienient that there are nationalists and shootings in the Ukraine but still, it doesn't change the fact that integrity of a state is endangered because of intervention of a foreign power. Besides that, the popularity of nationalists' party in the Ukraine isn't that big - during elections in October 2014 it got 7.44% of seats in Ukrainian parliament. This is much smaller support than for example Marine le Pen's ultra nationalist party got in France, so I wouldn't call nationalists that big of a problem.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 12, 2015 01:55 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 03:25, 12 Feb 2015.
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Pawek_13 said:
@Zenofex:
Of course it isn't convienient that there are nationalists and shootings in the Ukraine but still, it doesn't change the fact that integrity of a state is endangered because of intervention of a foreign power. Besides that, the popularity of nationalists' party in the Ukraine isn't that big - during elections in October 2014 it got 7.44% of seats in Ukrainian parliament. This is much smaller support than for example Marine le Pen's ultra nationalist party got in France, so I wouldn't call nationalists that big of a problem.
Odessa Massacre Documentary 02/05/2014
Please watch full video.
As for comparing Svoboda with Front National ...
- Svoboda 20 years flag
- Tyagnibok 1
- Tyagnibok 2
I might also need to remind to some people that during WWII, 27 millions of Russians died (compared to the 500 000 Americans), defending Europe against nazism. So who's the better friend of EU, Russia or USA?
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 12, 2015 04:59 AM |
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Ah, my dear Galaad, nobody cares anymore. Although we have 9th of May as the official country-wide holiday "the day of the victory", I have heard that now it is taught that the US won the war.
In the USSR, women and children worked on the factories to produce tanks, ammo, weapons, etc. We have our own name for the war - The Great Motherland War (dunno how to translate properly).
Besides, Ukraine also has this holiday, but their snow politicians reformed the minds of people so that they see it only as a part of soviet heritage (which they suddenly started to hate openly in 2014) and now with making Bandera scum a national hero they try to reform all history. Even Germany poses Bandera correctly - as a traitor working for Nazis in the times of WWII. But it seems that Ukraine is in drastic need of "national heroes".
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