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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2014 08:48 PM |
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TDL said:
You need to realize that in order to construct a good lineup for both singleplayer and multiplayer replayability, you need to make sacrifices such as diversity. Make tiers have 4 units with 3 eligible and you'd have the diversity. But since we are presented with a 3+3+1/2 it means you cannot have overly different units to balance them out. Else they will just get chosen 100% of the time.
They are trying to build a game to last a lifetime - to do that, balancing is vital. Choices need to complement the whole lineup's strategy, not change it.
P.S. Also, you need to factor in the resource costs. If treants are easier to buy than say phoenixes or dragons, and you can buy them quicker in multi games, people will be forced to go that route in order not to lose out on weekly growth and early creeping. And if they are slow and sturdy it will just prolong gameplay and potentially not make it any easier with champion units. We do not need one more overly defensive faction.
no one said treants will be cheaper. nor is it set in stone.
and diversity is the key to replaybility. and you say we need to sacrifice diversity for replaybility? i think you are walking to a dangerous territory about designing a game exactly as fans want, which sometimes is not the best idea. it was debated before in this forum.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2014 08:51 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
RMZ1989 said:
No, not really.
Likes SwarmHosts? Check
Likes Treants? Check
You are literally worse than hitler 
LizardWarrior said:
Dragons vs Phoenixes, in terms of strategy they seem to be very similar: flyer, offensive, fire breath. Dragons will get higher stats to compensate for the Phoenix Rebirth, but they still are way too similar. They could do Faerie Dragons which would act as offensive shooters/spellcasters and Phoenixes to be heavy damage sources, like in h4, that would make them slightly different.
I'm not sure if Phoenix would have Fire Breath. From their (brief) description they don't.
+1 to Faerie Dragons though 
Yeah, says a guy who has Protoss pro as his avatar, Jesus...
You guys are talking about new units when they have already gave us three line-ups, they won't change them.
So, we could have Dragons and Treants as champions, where one is highly aggressive with AoE attack while other is tanky, defensive unit that is rooting enemy units and gives more room for other units to deal damage. They are different, which is exactly the point in having two freaking different champions. You will choose one or another depending on the situation, playstyle etc.
On the other hand, Phoenixes are way way too similar to the Dragons. I can hardly see any difference between them and even though choice is there, it seems kind of irrelevant.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted September 12, 2014 08:52 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
no one said treants will be cheaper. nor is it set in stone.
and diversity is the key to replaybility. and you say we need to sacrifice diversity for replaybility? i think you are walking to a dangerous territory about designing a game exactly as fans want, which sometimes is not the best idea. it was debated before in this forum.
You must have read only a half of my post So be it, I do not want to pursue this matter any further because voice of reason won't do any good.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2014 08:53 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
I'm not sure if Phoenix would have Fire Breath. From their (brief) description they don't.
+1 to Faerie Dragons though
it's still a flying unit with at least one attribute similar (that being speed) with the dragon. and guess what their attack and defence won't be much different.
nomatter how you see it treants and dragons are way more distinct that phoenixes and dragons.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted September 12, 2014 09:00 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
You guys are talking about new units when they have already gave us three line-ups, they won't change them.
If the vote ends at 33/33/33 or close to it 34/32/34 or 36/38/26, they will likely reconsider balancing the lineups. I do not think that these are the final lineups.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2014 09:04 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
TDL said:
ChrisD1 said:
no one said treants will be cheaper. nor is it set in stone.
and diversity is the key to replaybility. and you say we need to sacrifice diversity for replaybility? i think you are walking to a dangerous territory about designing a game exactly as fans want, which sometimes is not the best idea. it was debated before in this forum.
You must have read only a half of my post So be it, I do not want to pursue this matter any further because voice of reason won't do any good.
the first part was about sacrificing diversity for replayability because fans will have to choose between two similar units both being fast, and the "P.S' part was about trants being cheaper andno one would go for them.
what did i miss exactly?
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted September 12, 2014 09:04 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
the first part was about sacrificing diversity for replayability because fans want to have choose between two similar units both being fast, and the "P.S' part was about trants being cheaper and anyone would go for them.
what did i miss exactly?
Make tiers have 4 units with 3 eligible and you'd have the diversity. But since we are presented with a 3+3+1/2 it means you cannot have overly different units to balance them out. Else they will just get chosen 100% of the time.
The system is flawed from the get-go. Overly different champions will totally ruin balancing. Balancing ruins multiplayer -- and multiplayer is the priority for the long-term survival of the game.
Had they done 3 units per tier with 4 to choose from, having two distinct champs would do well.
Forget the fact that on paper two wholly different units look good. You need to consider the practicality.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted September 12, 2014 09:05 PM |
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People, please, stop snowing about Phoenix. So what if there is another bird creature in the game? With Dungeon there will be 2 dragons, but will you snow about how similar they are? Will you snow about 'cause there are 2 dragons in the game? Probably not, so stop it already! Why don't you nag about Haven having too similar HUMAN units?
According to your logic, if there are 2 similar creatures you should remove one? Arcane bird/Phoenix? Oh, ok. Than choose which of the following ones would you remove: Titan/Golem (because both are constructs), Haven units/Disciple (because there are too many human units, but then you can also remove hunters and druids since they are humanoid and too similar), great pyramid/small pyramid (similar again), Balista/Catapult (you cannot have 2 war machines, you must have only one)...
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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blizz
Known Hero
of temper grace
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posted September 12, 2014 09:05 PM |
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TDL said:
RMZ1989 said:
You guys are talking about new units when they have already gave us three line-ups, they won't change them.
If the vote ends at 33/33/33 or close to it 34/32/34 or 36/38/26, they will likely reconsider balancing the lineups. I do not think that these are the final lineups.
And they could still change the first option to be completely offensively oriented without even changing the lineup. I think it was a mistake on their part to lock these options in certain strategies.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 12, 2014 09:06 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Why don't you nag about Haven having too similar HUMAN units?
Think I saw this somewhere..
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2014 09:09 PM |
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I wonder who thought it was a good idea to add snakes. Some woodland being in sylvan would indeed be cool but.. snakes? Next thing we know necro has spiders. Why the hell? But still better than having dryad and sprite in core, not thematically but balance-wise. A ranged unit and a fast no retaliation glass cannon could use some entangle support.
A more important question is why would someone support a treant champion? It's a freaking tree that soaks up damage. It would require some really impressive and imaginative specials to justify its position there, otherwise a slow tank champion sounds about as exciting as watching a log rot.. Don't get me wrong, I would miss the treants if they were gone from the lineup. But elite is as good as it gets and they are definitely needed there. If you want some tanking done, you want it early.
Phoenixes on the other hand are a majestic creature that has always had its place in sylvan. I see complaints about a fiery creature in a woodland faction. You must realize that 1) a phoenix does not have to be covered in flames all over 2) that the phoenix's rebirth is an allusion to the changing of seasons 3) that the phoenix is awesome, deal with it 
Putting unicorns in one lineup only seems a joke, it's one of the most iconic sylvan units. Worse yet, it is not in the lineup with phoenix. Heresy! I don't particularly care about the emerald warriors but if they are the lynx-riding warriors, their presence will be more tolerable. But really, do we need 3 elves? Hunter and druid should do. Sun doe sounds cool, I might have liked it better in a different lineup. Would make a decent light magic summon too.
And an observation. Nowhere is it mentioned that green dragons can fly. Sylanna also happens to have an avatar of an earth-based dragon with crystals and vegetation growing out of her body. I'm sensing a pattern
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted September 12, 2014 09:09 PM |
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TDL said:
RMZ1989 said:
You guys are talking about new units when they have already gave us three line-ups, they won't change them.
If the vote ends at 33/33/33 or close to it 34/32/34 or 36/38/26, they will likely reconsider balancing the lineups. I do not think that these are the final lineups.
yes for outcomes 1 and 2, but outcome 3 is a normal vote result.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2014 09:13 PM |
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TDL said:
Make tiers have 4 units with 3 eligible and you'd have the diversity. But since we are presented with a 3+3+1/2 it means you cannot have overly different units to balance them out. Else they will just get chosen 100% of the time.
The system is flawed from the get-go. Overly different champions will totally ruin balancing. Balancing ruins multiplayer -- and multiplayer is the priority for the long-term survival of the game.
Had they done 3 units per tier with 4 to choose from, having two distinct champs would do well.
Forget the fact that on paper two wholly different units look good. You need to consider the practicality.
what makes you think that the rest of the line up (cores,elite) won't work well with both dragons and treants?they will make some tweaks here and there if they have to, nothing is final.
and what's the point of having to choose between two champions when both of them just look different but play the same? now that's something to consider for a fun gameplay with replayability. i never play multiplayer but i enjoy taking different takes on the map. not only multiplayer adds to the long term survival of the game. new maps mods etc for the single players do more for longevity than multplayer. or contribute the same at least.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 12, 2014 09:14 PM |
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Elvin said:
And an observation. Nowhere is it mentioned that green dragons can fly. Sylanna also happens to have an avatar of an earth-based dragon with crystals and vegetation growing out of her body. I'm sensing a pattern
Hmm... What was that picture of Sylanna again? Cause if I remember right, Malassa looked like Shadow/Black dragons... perhaps Sylanna/Emerald dragons will be the same? If so, I might just vote for Earth's Balance instead...
Edit: found it.
http://static9.cdn.ubi.com/en-GB/images/Sylanna_Tridiontcm2121024.jpg
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted September 12, 2014 09:21 PM |
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It's 35/38/27 now! Only 3 percents for Strength to go!
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2014 09:22 PM |
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Elvin said:
I wonder who thought it was a good idea to add snakes. Some woodland being in sylvan would indeed be cool but.. snakes? Next thing we know necro has spiders. Why the hell? But still better than having dryad and sprite in core, not thematically but balance-wise. A ranged unit and a fast no retaliation glass cannon could use some entangle support.
I am not having opinion on Snakes, but at least they are something new. Last time I was reading discussion about Sylvan everybody were whining how stupid Blade Dancer is.
Quote:
A more important question is why would someone support a treant champion? It's a freaking tree that soaks up damage. It would require some really impressive and imaginative specials to justify its position there, otherwise a slow tank champion sounds about as exciting as watching a log rot.. Don't get me wrong, I would miss the treants if they were gone from the lineup. But elite is as good as it gets and they are definitely needed there. If you want some tanking done, you want it early.
Why wouldn't be possible to give something special to the Treant? If he is a champion, make him a champion. Also, two lineups out of three has Treants as champions, they definitely think it belongs there. It is pretty funny that people whine about Treants being Champion but they fully support Swordbearers.
If you want some tanking done, you want it early? What the hell is this Elvin?
Quote:
Phoenixes on the other hand are a majestic creature that has always had its place in sylvan. I see complaints about a fiery creature in a woodland faction. You must realize that 1) a phoenix does not have to be covered in flames all over 2) that the phoenix's rebirth is an allusion to the changing of seasons 3) that the phoenix is awesome, deal with it
Yes, there was a time when I thought Phoenixes were awesome, like 10 years ago. Since then, I've been seeing Phoenixes everywhere... If I have to rate them, I would rate them 3/10 in my book.
Quote:
Putting unicorns in one lineup only seems a joke, it's one of the most iconic sylvan units. Worse yet, it is not in the lineup with phoenix. Heresy! I don't particularly care about the emerald warriors but if they are the lynx-riding warriors, their presence will be more tolerable. But really, do we need 3 elves? Hunter and druid should do. Sun doe sounds cool, I might have liked it better in a different lineup. Would make a decent light magic summon too.
I agree that Unicorns are signature Sylvan units, but I really like that they didn't put them with the Phoenixes, makes my voting really easy. 
Quote:
And an observation. Nowhere is it mentioned that green dragons can fly. Sylanna also happens to have an avatar of an earth-based dragon with crystals and vegetation growing out of her body. I'm sensing a pattern
Except we just had a wallpaper being posted, that has flying Green Dragon. It doesn't necessarily means that he will be flying, but that is the only clue we have so far.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2014 09:22 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 21:25, 12 Sep 2014.
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Marzhin just confirmed that H7 green dragons are going to be walkers
Quote:
If you want some tanking done, you want it early? What the hell is this Elvin?
You want to protect your hunters early and the treants are the best unit for that role. All other units are offensive.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2014 09:23 PM |
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Elvin said:
A more important question is why would someone support a treant champion? It's a freaking tree that soaks up damage. It would require some really impressive and imaginative specials to justify its position there, otherwise a slow tank champion sounds about as exciting as watching a log rot.. Don't get me wrong, I would miss the treants if they were gone from the lineup. But elite is as good as it gets and they are definitely needed there. If you want some tanking done, you want it early.
Phoenixes on the other hand are a majestic creature that has always had its place in sylvan. I see complaints about a fiery creature in a woodland faction. You must realize that 1) a phoenix does not have to be covered in flames all over 2) that the phoenix's rebirth is an allusion to the changing of seasons 3) that the phoenix is awesome, deal with it
And an observation. Nowhere is it mentioned that green dragons can fly. Sylanna also happens to have an avatar of an earth-based dragon with crystals and vegetation growing out of her body. I'm sensing a pattern
I would because i think it adds to diversity. and it will change your strategy a lot. it will make you think more. and make things a little more challenging adding more fun. and just a reminder they are not obligatory when they are treated as a champion unit.
Nomatter how you see it, phoenix will also be linked to "sacred fire" more. it's like a cerberus with two heads. cerberi are not meant to be two-headed and phoenixes are not meant to not be linked with fire.
About your observation green dragon will probably have wings as seen at the picture of the "you chose sylvan" poster.
But to be fair they should provide a little more of concept art so we know for sure what dragons are going to be like.
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blizz
Known Hero
of temper grace
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posted September 12, 2014 09:25 PM |
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Marzhin also said Phoenix will quite probably be a Moonix.
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VOKIALBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted September 12, 2014 09:28 PM |
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Balance for me. And now Treant as champ + Unicorns must be in. And this line up will give us the chance to play with Sylvan defensive and offensive, not only one of them. This is more gameplay friendly.
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