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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 18, 2016 08:42 AM |
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By 'more gambling" I mean you will get screwed less often, but if you get screwed you get screwed harder.
The ghosts are not overpowered, so there is no problem to begin with, you also have to see this from necropolis perspective and the tactical role they need to play in that faction. they don't need an extra tank.
some creatures are relatively hard to kill on the adventure map, but those exist for every tier, druids, flame priests, warlords. sometimes you have to lose some creatures and move on, it is part of the game. Maulers are too easy to kill but nobody complains about those ofc.
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LarkinVB
Known Hero
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posted May 19, 2016 12:12 AM |
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Edited by LarkinVB at 00:15, 19 May 2016.
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I think maulers are too easy to kill ! Can they be buffed, please ? Same goes for all slow melee walkers. Each time I see a stack of golems or minotaurs on the map, I'm happy for the easy experience points they bring.
Every game is about getting initiative and good range attacks. Melee is screwed if they have to suffer three volleys before reaching the enemy.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 19, 2016 09:05 AM |
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted May 19, 2016 04:15 PM |
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Quote:
Gidoza, please give a concrete example so we can have a discussion.
I dont know how to help with the issue when you dont point a situation it has ocured.
magnomagus said:
Interesting observation about H3 luck, boy that skill sucks compared to attack in H3.
Regardless I already nerfed luck, on avg it is equal to offense in damage and unlike H3, defense will completely neutralize one of those skills (again in avg dmg). Some might feel 0.25 or 0.3 or 0.4 feels better, but it cannot be denied H55 has much less excessive damage and shooter dominance. Also H5 has negative luck!
I'll agree that shooter dominance is less severe in H5 - but everything else seems stronger.
Ex. 3 Luck in H3 was 12.5% for double damage on the base; 5 Luck in H5 is 50% for 1.8x damage on the modifier. This means that Luck in H5 is at a minimum 3.5 times as powerful in H5 than H3. About the same deal for Morale: then add on things like Retribution or what-have-you, and you have a bunch of damage bonuses without even the cost of a single spell point. Then add Battle Frenzy and such...first-level creatures were always decent in H3, but they're quite ridiculous in H5.
I suppose my point is that even if Luck in H5 mirrored closely that of H3 (4.2, 8.4, 12.5, then say 16.8, 21.5, or something like that), the skill would STILL be worthwhile by a long shot. Whereas in H3 you had the Crag Hack - Haste maneuver that will kill most of an opponent's army in turn 1 if you happen to go first, you can't do that in H5: BUT if you have the right skills, any particular unit that happens to get the first strike on any other particular unit seems to kill the majority of the stack instantly. I guess my general sense is that anything we've gained in H5 by dampening the effect of the Attack primary skill, or softening the effects of Mass spells, has simply been replaced by other factors in the offensive sphere that make H5 battles just as silly or even worse than H3 battles. I'm all for attack bonuses - the numbers just seem a little high.
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted May 19, 2016 04:24 PM |
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Dredknight said:
Gidoza, urgash call is not that strong and I believe I proved that with the latest replays. Having urgash call means not using a lot of other stuff. Basically you are extremely vulnerable to any magic, and most of the time toy will lack defense. Also having urgash call means your tactics will be mainly offensive which means you won't be able to benefit from Combat as well (which is main skill for the daemon lord).
Now let's do some math urgash call needs 24 skills basically you dont have many more free Level points for anything else.
Quote:
@Gidoza: You overlook that gating isn't even that strong to begin with in H5.5, since all modifiers from the skill and the infernal looms have been nerfed to make the skill roughly as strong as any other secondary skill. You can swap it for something else and play inferno without any gating at all.
-the resurrection boost is very useful and more important than the actual plague tent
Okay, so if I'm getting this straight - you're saying that Gating isn't that great of a skill and Urgash's Call isn't that strong. So why do we need 24 skills in order to acquire it? Either Urgash's Call is strong enough to legitimate such requirements, making it an Ultimate, or it isn't strong enough to legitimate it, which begs the question of why so many requirements are needed. Either way, having a series of requirements to attain a skill is still restricting and creates a situation where "the game is picking my skills for me" - which is what I thought H5.5 was trying to avoid. If Urgash's Call is too strong to legitimate removing all the requirements, I'd prefer the requirements be removed and Urgash's Call be changed to something else instead of having a whole chain of requirements remain for a questionable ability: and I'd say the same for all the other pseudo-ultimates with a list of requirements. For example, perhaps Urgash's Call could make the gated units come FASTER instead of INSTANTLY.
In any case - I like using Gating on my Demon Lord with Hellwrath so he has stuff to do with his spell points while he's beating things up with his Combat skills, and I find it quite effective.
Oh and in other news, my Heroes without Gating aren't getting Hell Hounds from the Infernal Looms. ^_^
As for the Plague Tent and such - I think you misread my concern. I know that the Tent's Resurrection can be extremely useful. My point is that the Ballista's damage output is so extremely high that the Resurrection from the Aid Tent doesn't come close to recovering the units that will never die in the first place because the Ballista has killed their oppressors first.
I might be more amenable to a First Aid Tent that can only Resurrect 3 times, but otherwise still has infinite ammo to do everything else. The Plague Tent damage certainly isn't high enough to justify a maximum of 3 shots, that's for sure.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 19, 2016 05:03 PM |
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@Gidoza: The crooked H3 balance is irrelevant here, the H5 luck skill needs to be weighted to be roughly as effective as any other secondary skill in the game. The skill also gives 3 luck not 5, so you need to do the math with a 30% chance.
Quote:
I guess my general sense is that anything we've gained in H5 by dampening the effect of the Attack primary skill, or softening the effects of Mass spells, has simply been replaced by other factors in the offensive sphere
I have never done any replacing, I have only nerfed stuff with respect to pace of battle, this even applies to the artifact point buffs since 4x0.033 is still less than 3x0.5.
Quote:
Either way, having a series of requirements to attain a skill is still restricting and creates a situation where "the game is picking my skills for me" - which is what I thought H5.5 was trying to avoid.
True, but I never had the luxury to design the game from scratch, a lot of people liked the old ultimates so I tried to fit in as much as possible.
Quote:
My point is that the Ballista's damage output is so extremely high that the Resurrection from the Aid Tent doesn't come close to recovering the units that will never die in the first place because the Ballista has killed their oppressors first.
You play too weak neutrals, try RMG XL map with cheating AI, very strong monsters and don't tweak down the battle sites, you will see resurrection is very useful!
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted May 19, 2016 08:16 PM |
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Quote:
The crooked H3 balance is irrelevant here, the H5 luck skill needs to be weighted to be roughly as effective as any other secondary skill in the game. The skill also gives 3 luck not 5, so you need to do the math with a 30% chance.
I'm not just talking about the Luck skill, I'm talking about them all with their respective strengths -> lots of secondary skills that provide offensive power could be tuned down alongside luck. Fair enough on the 30% comment, though.
Quote:
I have never done any replacing, I have only nerfed stuff with respect to pace of battle, this even applies to the artifact point buffs since 4x0.033 is still less than 3x0.5.
H5 replaced it, not you (sorry for the ambiguity). Anyways, with regard to the artifacts - what I *am* saying is that the reduction of Attack to 0.033 was appropriate, and that the artifact pointage should have been left lower anyways.
Quote:
Quote:
Either way, having a series of requirements to attain a skill is still restricting and creates a situation where "the game is picking my skills for me" - which is what I thought H5.5 was trying to avoid.
True, but I never had the luxury to design the game from scratch, a lot of people liked the old ultimates so I tried to fit in as much as possible.
I guess - but is it worth a lame or imbalanced system just because people like it? If that's the line we take, then the existence of WoG for H3 is completely unnecessary.
Quote:
Quote:
My point is that the Ballista's damage output is so extremely high that the Resurrection from the Aid Tent doesn't come close to recovering the units that will never die in the first place because the Ballista has killed their oppressors first.
You play too weak neutrals, try RMG XL map with cheating AI, very strong monsters and don't tweak down the battle sites, you will see resurrection is very useful!
I'm not interested in neutrals and I'm not playing the game for the sake of neutrals - if that's what I wanted, I'd go back to Super Mario RPG and pounce on Goombas. The Hero VS Hero actions is the root of the game and where I focus my attention.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 19, 2016 08:47 PM |
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Quote:
I guess - but is it worth a lame or imbalanced system just because people like it? If that's the line we take, then the existence of WoG for H3 is completely unnecessary.
Quote:Quote:
My point is that the Ballista's damage output is so extremely high that the Resurrection from the Aid Tent doesn't come close to recovering the units that will never die in the first place because the Ballista has killed their oppressors first.
You play too weak neutrals, try RMG XL map with cheating AI, very strong monsters and don't tweak down the battle sites, you will see resurrection is very useful!
I'm not interested in neutrals and I'm not playing the game for the sake of neutrals - if that's what I wanted, I'd go back to Super Mario RPG and pounce on Goombas. The Hero VS Hero actions is the root of the game and where I focus my attention.
All these highly exaggerated statements don't make any sense and only reveal you are completely unacquainted with about 80% of what this mod has to offer. (which means I'm wasting my time with this discussion)
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 19, 2016 09:08 PM |
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Gidoza said:
I'm not interested in neutrals and I'm not playing the game for the sake of neutrals - if that's what I wanted, I'd go back to Super Mario RPG and pounce on Goombas. The Hero VS Hero actions is the root of the game and where I focus my attention.
Gidoza, lets make a 1vs1 game. I am very eager to show me your points in practice.
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted May 20, 2016 06:31 PM |
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magnomagus said:
Quote:
I guess - but is it worth a lame or imbalanced system just because people like it? If that's the line we take, then the existence of WoG for H3 is completely unnecessary.
Quote:Quote:
My point is that the Ballista's damage output is so extremely high that the Resurrection from the Aid Tent doesn't come close to recovering the units that will never die in the first place because the Ballista has killed their oppressors first.
You play too weak neutrals, try RMG XL map with cheating AI, very strong monsters and don't tweak down the battle sites, you will see resurrection is very useful!
I'm not interested in neutrals and I'm not playing the game for the sake of neutrals - if that's what I wanted, I'd go back to Super Mario RPG and pounce on Goombas. The Hero VS Hero actions is the root of the game and where I focus my attention.
All these highly exaggerated statements don't make any sense and only reveal you are completely unacquainted with about 80% of what this mod has to offer. (which means I'm wasting my time with this discussion)
Not exaggerating - and as for "what the mod has to offer," I'm just not interested in playing on a map so large that it takes a real-life month to complete, thanks. And dred, happy to play with you, but if we're playing in conditions as ridiculous as these, forget about it - I stick to normal.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 20, 2016 06:55 PM |
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Quote:
I'm just not interested in playing on a map so large that it takes a real-life month to complete, thanks.
216x216 without undergrounds, 4 players and only 4 towns is perfectly fine. All you need to is be willing to increase the difficulty, not mess with the game files and actually finish the game, then come back and you will be embarrased about many things you have written.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted May 20, 2016 07:41 PM |
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Gidoza said:
And dred, happy to play with you, but if we're playing in conditions as ridiculous as these, forget about it - I stick to normal.
Gidoza, because a game is played by 2 people it should favour both.
So it is going to be one rule from you and one from me.
You want to play small map no problem we will set to medium sized one - it is 3 zones for 2 players (1 starting for each player and 1 treasury one).
My request is the map to be played with very strong monsters.
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isti1222
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 20, 2016 11:04 PM |
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Edited by isti1222 at 23:23, 20 May 2016.
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Knights should not look like paladins 
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 20, 2016 11:40 PM |
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isti1222
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 20, 2016 11:53 PM |
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magnomagus said:
Is this something you made or are you having a mod conflict?
Finished it today i tought they should be a bit different, so now im satisfied with them xD as u see, mostly copy-pasted, based on the renegade model also fixed the flag, and used knight anim, so now its faster
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 21, 2016 12:14 AM |
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2016 12:37 AM |
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dredknight said:
Gidoza said:
And dred, happy to play with you, but if we're playing in conditions as ridiculous as these, forget about it - I stick to normal.
Gidoza, because a game is played by 2 people it should favour both.
So it is going to be one rule from you and one from me.
You want to play small map no problem we will set to medium sized one - it is 3 zones for 2 players (1 starting for each player and 1 treasury one).
My request is the map to be played with very strong monsters.
Except this doesn't reflect the reality of what I like to play - I always play maps with 8 players, usually large. I never claimed that I wanted QUICK games - just not games that require a month to complete!
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isti1222
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 21, 2016 12:39 AM |
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magnomagus said:
What was wrong with the flag?
Nothing, but standard renegade models had the red flag, changed to knight flag so it will have player color
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 21, 2016 12:42 AM |
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isti1222
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 21, 2016 01:10 AM |
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magnomagus said:
@isti: In the screenshot it looks resized
Maybe, but it's not resized, I think renegades have smaller flags  ) the textures are almost the same, so I pointed it to the original knight flags
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