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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 23, 2017 09:06 PM |
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magnomagus said:
This might surprise you, but firewall to summoning was one of the first mods I ever made for TOE, it annoyed the #$%^ out of me Nival moved it to destructive. So you will have a hard time talking me out of this one.
Alright then 
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 23, 2017 09:10 PM |
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 23, 2017 10:42 PM |
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Edited by Skeggy at 22:44, 23 Sep 2017.
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Why place teleport on level 3, why not place sorrow on level 3 to prevent meaningless AI spellcasting of sorrow without dark magic? Teleport on level 2 is available to everyone and that is good spell to be available to everyone, it enriches battle tactics for everyone.
Also, why wasp swarm is level 2 when its real effectiveness begins on level 3, when hero has summoning magic? summon elementals would fit very good on its place on level two, it would give option for summoning to everyone, even if not powerful, it would still fit in some battles.
And last, why not make fear my roar target neutral, chieftains use that spell very well against its own puppeted creatures.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 23, 2017 10:50 PM |
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 23, 2017 11:14 PM |
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No, that puts too much weight on teleport assault perk for every might hero that doesn’t have dark magic since there’s no way for hero to learn level 3 spell without appropriate magic school.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 23, 2017 11:58 PM |
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 01:05 AM |
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Yes, that fact is true but that doesn't mean that was correct placement. It can be useful for quick placing large creatures with low initiative as a blocker for range attack, or for enabling quick attack from the castle to outside of the castle because hero doesn’t have to be expert in light magic to teleport over the castle walls if the direction is from inside to outside, or for quick placing some creature outside of imminent danger, or some predictable danger. In short it is very useful spell, something like passive encourage or passive word of the chief if hero doesn’t have teleport assault.
Considering it’s a spell, positioning it on level 2 would enable everyone to use it even without the teleport assault. From a player’s perspective it is good to try both versions, one as a plain spell and one with teleport assault initiative boost.
Tactically, it is very versatile and it doesn’t overpower opponent in any way, so it would be tactical booster for everyone, even without the teleport assault perk.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 02:00 AM |
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Following this line of arguing I could also claim how useful blade barrier is and then make it available to everyone. Spells are supposed to be ranked by strength and this was a level 4 spell. This way it is available to everyone, but everyone needs to do a little effort.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 10:01 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 11:41, 24 Sep 2017.
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Quote:
But what is the single spell cost you used?
LB TOE = 4, so you arrive at only 7 mana for a fireball???
These coefs are relatively single target. Damage multiply them.
If lighting bolt = fireball (at single damage), then 1.75 is multiplier to Lightning bolt.
I wrote than for each power x2 you must growth mana const at least x4. So, for x1.75 at leat x3 mana cost.
Quote:
Is this for targeting enemies?, otherwise it is ridiculous
When you have 200 mana, 40 mana for the key warrior spell is nothing. For low SP teleport is one of the best spell in game (like Phantom or original Berserk), especially if you nerf mass spells.
If you look at PvE, so TOP spells of 4-5 levels should not be convenient to play in the early game at a poor knowledge, if you orient your game to 6th month, you must have a reserve for the development of your technology, accumulating mana for using top spells, at this case. If player can spam with teleport and other top spells on the 1st and on the 6th month equally, what is the difference and motivation to play until 6th month?
As you like to consider, the strength of the teleport is directly proportional to the growing size of the army.
Also Teleport Assault is very strong warrior perk, compared to Encourage, many times stronger only for 10 mana.
I think that the difference between them must be: Encourage can be spam frequently and every turn, but TA can't (because of expensive cost).
So 5/10/20/40/80 mana Light is only example, each magic school can be done so (for example, Implosion for 80 mana, with damage ~90 per spellpower instead of 40-50 for 20 mana).
Quote:
Cannot be used in H55, because of AI
Because of AI player? It does not matter, AI does not know how to play, his task is lose combat creating illusion of fight (never can not be compared with PvP), so what's the difference that he does not know how to cast spell 4x4?
So I understand your position, and this is only my personal position, do not be guided by what AI can do and what can't. Why should a player sacrifice interesing tactical tools because of poor primitive AI, against which he can don't play at all?
Choosing between mass blessing and area righteous might is more interesting than simply choosing between small mass buff of damage and big mass buff of damage. And area spells in general, tactically are more interesting than overall versions.
Did you fix AI-bugs using AI/versus AI Deflecting Arrows which are more important than potential AI bugs with 4x4?
AI can't use several other spells, like teleportation or many summoning spells, but you doesn't exclude these spells from the game.
So I understand you like to playing vs AI more, so there is little chance to convince, but it is possible that these arguments will some day play a role.
Quote:
You overlook has very positive effect on creatures with haste spell (inquisitor)
Power of blessing/haste is always actually, so Haste don't need to acceleration. And for the highest SP there is more SP-dependent Endurance.
So I did not analyze casting units but most likely there should be no problems with a competent adjustment of the mana reserve (so the SP-dependent Endurance and Righteous Might which are more powerful on 20+ SP, can't be casted many times).
Quote:
The idea to make teleport work on enemies is worth investigating, it will make the spell somewhat equal to phantom forces in value, meaning the effectiveness will become very chaotic between mediocre and super awesome.
This is practically very bad idea, I have tried it in WGE, where spells are more powerful than TotE and yours. And even there it was imbalanced, you simple put enemy key stack (for example archers) and kill it easy. And any hero can use it, with any Spellpower, even if it is equal to 1. Your Implosion with SP ~50 at your typical late-game armies is do nothing compared to this.
But for the cost of 200-300 mana it may be balanced
Quote:
Dark
Level 1: Raise Dead, Weakness, Slow
Bad idea to move resurrecting spels to low level. If you like PvE and challenge you don't want to have so freebie. Any resurrecting spells in PvE combats are imba, many times stronger than at final battle (becuase reduces losses very well). Tier-1 spell means you can spam it every PvE battle every turn, and do nothing else.
I think that minimal level of any resurrecting spells must be 3, and remove this cheat spell from necro heroes.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 24, 2017 11:30 AM |
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@Skeggy teleport is too useful spell to be lvl 1 and 2, it causes additional benefits in defensive and offensive departments that throw off the balance of the game if given for free. Actually you already mentioned a lot of those benefits. Basically everyone will want to get Teleport ASAP if it is just level 1 and 2 instead of other spells.
With teleport Might heroes can straight drop their toughest units in the midst of the enemy lines. Imagine dropping hydras,crusaders, Pit lords, Horned deamons, Ancient treants with no skill investment whatsoever. Teleport spell disrupts the traditional M&M combat mechanics in many ways and this kind of disruption cannot be given for free.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 11:45 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 12:17, 24 Sep 2017.
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I don't understand why do you think that teleport is poor spell, is teleport assault also weak?
If you compare with Phantom, so in your game at very high levels (so ATB is 1.0) and weak later spells, level of Phantom must be 5, and mana cost of ~80, it will solve many problems with it power.
So I dislike many reshuffles in magic schools, this is equals to reshuffle of fraction units as giving to humans elvish dancers, for example. I think that each reshuffle between schools is very expensive change and must have very strong argumentation, not reshuffle for reshuffle. Because each this change may be that reason for player as "I don't want to play game because of this strange decision". Reshuffling between magic levels at the same school is much less expensive and soft for perception.
If you think that Dark is powerful for having Mind Control and Berserk in it, so seruiosly rising cost of these spells is that variant you must look for the first.
Summoning have powerful at high-level spell like Phantom and no need in Mind Control, and if you think that power of Summoning is weak simply do its higher spells stronger (for example, Phoenix and Elementals).
In Light you may buff Regeneration and moving it higher. Regeneration is very key spell if has enough power, especially in PvE.
Antimagic to Dark is not required (it is not in the competence of dark to have abilities of protection allies), but idea of buff it by casting on enemy is good.
IMHO
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 12:21 PM |
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Quote:
These coefs are relatively single target. Damage multiply them.
If lighting bolt = fireball (at single damage), then 1.75 is multiplier to Lightning bolt.
I wrote than for each power x2 you must growth mana const at least x4. So, for x1.75 at leat x3 mana cost.
Your system is based on weird speculation, but you still seem to arrive at the same cost (x3), but you didn't take into account the value of vulnerability spell is added on top of it.
I already took into account weak and less relevant targets, therefore I arrived at lower cost for chain lightning and took 3x Lightning bolt as guideline for Fireball
It is very easy to hit 3 valuable targets with Fireball, you can also hit an additional war machine in the process. So 3xLB + 1 vulnerability is best valuation of cost.
If teleport is worth 40 to you than I guess you set Fireball to 60 mana? Because obviously you are not looking at your damage log when evaluating spells. You need to take a better look at how much 'free damage' = damage to valuable targets without losing troops, the spells are capable of inflicting. You will notice (especially in early game) that Phantom forces is actually doing much less 'free damage' then fireball. Sometimes even Frenzy cannot match Fireball. Phantom is only great above lvl 25. Teleport (friend) is worse than Fireball & Phantom because you will always take damage yourself and many tier 6-7 move 8 tiles anyway.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 12:41 PM |
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Quote:
So I dislike many reshuffles in magic schools, this is equals to reshuffle of fraction units as giving to humans elvish dancers, for example. I think that each reshuffle between schools is very expensive change and must have very strong argumentation, not reshuffle for reshuffle.
No you pretty much dislike everything anyway. You have not been reading my very strong argumentation, and according to Ashan Lore moving puppet master is no issue.
Quote:
If you think that Dark is powerful for having Mind Control and Berserk in it, so seruiosly rising cost of these spells is that variant you must look for the first.
A very boring fix to the issue. If there is enough mana for both spells can work simultaneously and therefore player gets too much control over enemy army.
Quote:
and if you think that power of Summoning is weak.
I never said that, this is just the best place to move it. Phoenix can be neutralized completely so it is less reliable and strong arcane armor is in my opinion a much better fix to the issues with Light magic than regeneration. Strong regeneration will just be a boring resurrection/vampirism clone.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 12:50 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 13:01, 24 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Your system is based on weird speculation, but you still seem to arrive at the same cost (x3), but you didn't take into account the value of vulnerability spell is added on top of it.
This "speculation" is distinguishes competent and detailed balancing from perfunctory. You like work with details so you can hardly blame anyone in the same approach to the balance.
Quote:
but you didn't take into account the value of vulnerability spell is added on top of it.
Value of fire perks? Didn't. You may include it or may not (like include protection from fire for perk or not), my target was to give information about correct evaluating AREA effect.
Yes, in final number of Fireball our final estimates was coincided (except +1 for fire perks), but if you take any spell with different damage and apply the formula: x2 power = x2 cost, this will be a serious mistake. For example, your Imposion vs Meteor Shower rate.
Quote:
It is very easy to hit 3 valuable targets with Fireball, you can also hit an additional war machine in the process. So 3xLB + 1 vulnerability is best valuation of cost.
Easy only if you play against stupid AI or against opponent who ignores your magic. It's very easy to have no more than 2 targets for Fireball also.
So if you think that in PvE fireball easy damage 3+ targets, maybe little higher the coeff, but if it will be high as 3, this spell will be unprofitable in PvP.
Quote:
If teleport is worth 40 to you than I guess you set Fireball to 60 mana? Because obviously you are not looking at your damage log when evaluating spells. You need to take a better look at how much 'free damage' = damage to valuable targets without losing troops, the spells are capable of inflicting. You will notice (especially in early game) that Phantom forces is actually doing much less 'free damage' then fireball. Sometimes even Frenzy cannot match Fireball. Phantom is only great above lvl 25. Teleport (friend) is worse than Fireball & Phantom because you will always take damage yourself and many tier 6-7 move 8 tiles anyway.
I don't think that Fireball is stronger than teleport, because your fireball can't deal any significant damage on giant armies, but teleport can. And teleport doesn't require any Spellpower.
If we compared perks, this is another question. Teleport Assault versus Master of Fire. I think that TA is stronger. Especially of you have 3.33% per defence (not 5%).
Quote:
Phoenix can be neutralized completely
Yes, and Mind Control also, by Cleansing.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 24, 2017 12:57 PM |
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@Nargott Fireball easily can hit 3 good targets in PvP as well.
When the enemy has 7 units there is not a lot of space to put them apart. Also you forget about the Vulnerability effect of fireball which is very potent in the late game.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 01:02 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 13:11, 24 Sep 2017.
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dredknight said:
@Nargott Fireball easily can hit 3 good targets in PvP as well.
When the enemy has 7 units there is not a lot of space to put them apart. Also you forget about the Vulnerability effect of fireball which is very potent in the late game.
As you wish, I said my opinion 
Do you see only at first round with Quickness of Mind?
Vulnerability is not a part of area, you may include it, you may not, as for me it is not important, the question was about rating area versus single target. Fireball is only one of the area spells.
The next example we can see is pair of Meteor/Implosion which is the best, clear illustration without any perks.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 01:12 PM |
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Quote:
You like work with details so you can hardly blame anyone in the same approach to the balance.
No it is not the same, you come with ^0.25 number out of nowhere.
Quote:
For example, your Imposion vs Meteor Shower rate.
I already said it must be higher because of damage concentration.
Quote:
It's very easy to have no more than 2 targets for Fireball also.
If in all types of games average is 2 or 3, it is better to balance towards 3 because of huge mana pools.
Quote:
I don't think that Fireball is stronger than teleport, because your fireball can't deal any significant damage on giant armies, but teleport can.
This doesn't make any sense, you can target any stack with damage spells and frequently they will do more damage without any losses.
Quote:
Yes, and Mind Control also, by Cleansing.
No that is not the same, this costs a hero turn, elemental balance clones the phoenix without any interference.
EDIT:
Quote:
Do you see only at first round with Quickness of Mind?
That is already enough reason, because of wide selection of spells available to destructive caster.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 01:22 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 13:38, 24 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
No it is not the same, you come with ^0.25 number out of nowhere.
Nowhere for you. This number is approximation estimation, compared with combat analysis.
If you come to detailed balance you must to do such estimations, because there are no another variants to do your primary math model better.
The problem is not estimation, but that you don't agree with this concrete. And so, this is my only opinion, which can be taken into account, or not.
Quote:
No that is not the same, this costs a hero turn, elemental balance clones the phoenix without any interference.
Ban elemental balance?
Quote:
That is already enough reason, because of wide selection of spells available to destructive caster.
Do you have QM always when playing Destructive?
Yes, you can balance area spells at that cost that limiting their utility only for rare situation, because cost is the less important thing while 10 or 20 is cheap (for 200+ mana pool), but if you start nerfing the damage, for example, to "equal" implosion and meteor shower, then you fail with it, because having implosion with greate damage and meteor with poor damage no one wants to use meteor at 99% times.
Only practice can clearly show who is right. In WGE I try to use 1.5 estimation at 3x3 area and 2.0 estimation at 3x3 area and convinced that 2.0 or higher is trash (for PvP). But there mana cost is very important and I can see it clearly. In MMH5.5, the practical answer to this question may take longer time for testing, because mana cost is less important.
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dicanio
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 24, 2017 01:27 PM |
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Hello, its me again. About this error rmg map load failed it appears on every H55.map without lake map template. When there is no water on map loading fails but when there is water it just works and there is no RMG map prefix in lobby.
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dicanio
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 24, 2017 01:31 PM |
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Created maps with lake arent working too, only h55 maps with lake are working.
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