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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design
Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design This thread is 13 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · «PREV / NEXT»
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 31, 2017 09:26 PM
Edited by dredknight at 21:27, 31 Aug 2017.

I kind of ditched defaultstats as I do not want to mess with it as it will interfere with any mods whatsoever.  There are more tiers than just 8 and so I tried adding more damage numbers in hero damage table but unfortunately it breaks the whole thing and melee damage changes to 1 for all hero levels against all tiers.

It is good to know that the tier 8 damage line works for tiers 9 and 10.

The change seems valid so do it. Regarding the tier 8 concept it is really far away. To have idea of how much time I need here is a rough list of the tasks.

1. Mapmixer R&D - Discover if importing precisely one tier 8 stack in chosen special buildings is possible. It will also have to match custom growth rate.
2. Create 3D models for Heroes 3 uber creatures - Find a few 3D artists to do the models for glory and fame. I got an idea where I can find the people but not before making the python thing possible.
3. create the NCF and balance them


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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 31, 2017 10:48 PM

Quote:
Shatters are added to all factions to replace skills that were in TOE completely useless and didn't fit the class from a lore perspective. For example a knight cannot use summoning and destructive properly because it doesn't develop the required spellpower. It also just looks weird. H4 and H3 had generic spellschool defenses as spells, so it is just a minor step to make it skills, nothing new or blasphemy. A knight with destructive magic is blasphemy.
+

I respectfully disagree. Knights ingame are based on Christian lore and the Crusades. Some destructive or sommoning magic fits perfectly a Holy Crusader theme or Arcturian legend.

It also allows heroes to be less of an stereotype. If all knights have both Light and Shatter Dark, the character/game development is repetitive and boring -exactly what you said you wanted to avoid on the first post.

Look at H3 and H4. In H3 most classes have few if any forbidden skills (and can still get it with map objects or scripts). In H4 it is the same.

Straightjacketing hero development to fit a stereotype in the mind of the developer is not good game design or balance. Maybe most knights won't have Destructive or Summonning magic. But there is a chance that they will be able to develop it (maybe less than 1% per level) . Also a Knight summoning  Phoenix or a storm of fire is quite fitting and would be satisfying enough to watch (apocalypse, etc.) ...
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 01, 2017 12:41 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 00:45, 01 Sep 2017.

@Nimostar: no doubt people can argue all night if the weirdly named spell schools of h5 fit a christian crusader theme, but from a gameplay perspective you are wrong.

First you assume that combinations need to be available for the knight, even when they are already available for other classes of the faction.

Then you ignore that the knights adds other worthy variations like light+shatter sum or light+shatter destructive or playing without any magic at all, that would otherwise not be available for the faction and therefore reduce the variation.

Also if a knight was able to make all magic combos effectively then what specialty would be left for the magic classes?

and lastly you also look past the fact that in H5Toe knights could learn summoning and destructive but had no way to use them effectively and therefore choosing those skills would be a tactical error by the player. While on the other hand all skill combinations the h55 classes can make are optimized for their primary skill progression.


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Bogdanov89
Bogdanov89

Tavern Dweller
posted September 01, 2017 03:25 PM

looks awesome

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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 10, 2017 09:50 AM

@Magno,


We had a discussion with @Nargott and he mentioned that Battle frenzy is better than vitality.

Frenzy gives +1 damage which is about 50% to 100% boost for tier 1.
25-50% for tier 2.
10-15% for tier 3.
...
~2% for tier 7.

On the other hand vitality gives:
~ 30% for tier 1.
~ 15-20% for tier 2.
~ 10% for tier 3.
..
~ <1% for tier 7

I was against the change first but I started thinking how it can affect the pace of the battle now when defense is gone.
Also there is one very nice artifact called "Amulet of the Claw" that gives extra +1 Damage to all units.
On the other hand there is a ring of vitality for +2 where you can get 2 of them.

Nargott proposition is to make vitality bonus to +3.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Some imbalances that come to my mind:
- Fortress T1 and T2 will become even tougher.
- Academy artifacts for health will stack better

Also I thought it will be nice idea to evaluate the ratio between damage and health and their bonuses as those are the base stats that get amplified. Here is a quick list with possible modifiers I made:

Damage vs HP (rough numbers, I have included bonuses for certain skills and high/low init):
- tier 1: ~ damage is about 33% to 50% for some units (compared to hp)
- tier 2: ~ 40%
- tier 3: ~ 40%
- tier 4: ~ 35%
- tier 5: ~ 30%
- tier 6: ~ 20%
- tier 7: ~ 23%

Damage:
- E. Luck - x1.2/x1.25
- E. Offense - x1.2 or archery x1.15
- E. Leadership - x1.2
- retribution x1.05 - x1.125

Hitpoints:
- E. Defense: x1.2 (Based on the next version value)
- Evasion x1.2 against archers
- Various resistances and damage reductions against magic attacks which HP more valuable then it is.
- Defense and Stand your ground - they add to defense bonus which can be between 10 and 50 so i cannot say any certain bonus.

Have in mind that being in defensive formation is more lucrative as you can intercept incoming enemy troops one by one (slow units take time to reach the other side).
Also higher HP -> troops live longer -> troops hit more times -> more damage.

Just decided to throw those thoughts down in case someone finds anything I am missing. Currently I am for no changes whatsoever until  we test the new defense value.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted September 10, 2017 12:46 PM

Coupled with the fact that attacker stacks have an edge over defending ones, I think that nival was correct to make defense better than offense. (Especially considering the overkill effects of pre-H5.5 luck/leadership/etc) But it should still be reduced because it makes certain races too hard to kill. I've been playing with 7% per defense mastery as opposed to 5% per offense mastery and it has worked out fine.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 10, 2017 01:34 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 13:47, 10 Sep 2017.

No, Nival was wrong because defense is already better with the same numbers:

10 x 0.8 x 1.2 = 9.6
10 x 0.8 x 1.25 = 10
10 x 0.5 x 1.5 = 7.5
10 x 0.5 x 2 = 10

Same applies to slow and haste
and agreal vs raelag etc.

It is not important that vitality is equal to battle frenzy, what matters is that the defense secondary skill is worth taking in the grand scheme of things. (rings of vitality, mana gain from goblins etc). I will think about it.

Quote:
Also I thought it will be nice idea to evaluate the ratio between damage and health and their bonuses as those are the base stats that get amplified. Here is a quick list with possible modifiers I made:

Damage vs HP (rough numbers, I have included bonuses for certain skills and high/low init):
- tier 1: ~ damage is about 33% to 50% for some units (compared to hp)
- tier 2: ~ 40%
- tier 3: ~ 40%
- tier 4: ~ 35%
- tier 5: ~ 30%
- tier 6: ~ 20%
- tier 7: ~ 23%


This is all very unclear, % of what exactly? and if tier 1 hits tier 7 it will have to bridge a 28 defense defecit, how is this taken into account? For most factions tier 6 ends up the strongest stack.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted September 10, 2017 02:11 PM

I said that because of a practical perspective, not a mathematical one. Original damage output was insane.
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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 10, 2017 03:41 PM
Edited by dredknight at 15:51, 10 Sep 2017.

Magno I do not have a doubt in what is currently accomplished. I just try to think like Nargott and just throw in some math and see if any blind spot can be found.

magnomagus said:
(rings of vitality, mana gain from goblins etc). I will think about it.

What mana from goblins?

magnomagus said:

This is all very unclear, % of what exactly? and if tier 1 hits tier 7 it will have to bridge a 28 defense deficit, how is this taken into account? For most factions tier 6 ends up the strongest stack.

% is damage out of HP. for example if unit deals 20 damage and has 100 hp this is 20%.

I know about attack and defense I just try to think away from them and try to think in a narrow minded way for a second. I do not try to accomplish anything just looking from other perspectives. Nargott logic is very narrow minded towards numbers. I want to find the words that I may not convince him but at least to find the common ground with most of the stuff he asks.

Cheers

P.S.
Probably you have already deducted but that thing about slow/haste and initiative is also valid for units base initiative. For example:
- x1.6 times more than 10 is 16
- x1.6 times less than 10 is 0.625


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 10, 2017 04:22 PM

The mana gain form sacrifice is equal to their HP, so one upgrade is better for sacrificing.

I don't understand your point about base initiative, this is only relevant for modifiers.
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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 10, 2017 04:47 PM

magnomagus said:
I don't understand your point about base initiative, this is only relevant for modifiers.


My bad I was so into that math thing that at some point I reached up to the deduction that unit with 20 init will act 4 times more than unit with 5 init. Which is just about normal thing because 20/5 = 4.
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fierro
fierro


Hired Hero
posted September 13, 2017 06:12 AM
Edited by fierro at 06:13, 13 Sep 2017.

I know it's unlikely, but still... Is there a way I can play with OLD skillwheel in MMH5.5? In vanilla TotE I really liked following those countless arrows and adjust my gameplan according to them

How do I mod skilltree in a way I like? Do I need hex-editing knowledge?

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 13, 2017 07:30 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 07:32, 13 Sep 2017.

Quote:
First you assume that combinations need to be available for the knight, even when they are already available for other classes of the faction.

Then you ignore that the knights adds other worthy variations like light+shatter sum or light+shatter destructive or playing without any magic at all, that would otherwise not be available for the faction and therefore reduce the variation.

Also if a knight was able to make all magic combos effectively then what specialty would be left for the magic classes?

and lastly you also look past the fact that in H5Toe knights could learn summoning and destructive but had no way to use them effectively and therefore choosing those skills would be a tactical error by the player. While on the other hand all skill combinations the h55 classes can make are optimized for their primary skill progression.


1- Not all combinations, SOME combinations. You are leaving just ONE magic school. It is obvious nearly all if not ALL knights will use this magic school then, if only by a little boost. This takes out all variation in the class.

2- Who said "effectively"? One thing is using magic as the main dish and another one is using it as a side show. It is not about using destructive magic for, say, winning the game as your main damage dealer, but maybe destroying a few little stacks that would be annoying and waste turns/retalations from your creatures.

3- From this we can also gather that you are wrong here on that it will "always be a bad decision". Bad decisions would be about the *tactics* on how to use this magic not if it available at all.

Not to mention only leaving the decisions available which YOU personally believe "good practice" stunts possible experimental builds that have features and interactions the modder/designer himself has not though about. Thing MTG combos, or highly unorthodox chess plays, that come from "bad cards" or "bad decks" but become a good strategy because of invention and novelty. If these cards or decks would be banned outright because the designer "though they are bad and don't allows the player to make such mistakes" then this is just railroading and forces the player to play ONLY the ways the developer intended to, instead of having the option of using their own creativity even if the developer deems it a "bad choice".

Not to mention, also, that this is all assuming a minmaxing player, but many players purposelly choose "bad" skills or combinations, specially against the AI or in campaigns, just because they think it is "cool", or as a "personal signature". By destroying this option you stunt their inventive and limit ther playstyle choices.
And also, even professional Starcraft players made some plausible winning strategies using at some key junctures the "bad" units such as the Protoss Scout. This is the same about power-dependent magics on low-magic powered heroes: They still have utility value on certain key junctures.

Even on D&D and the like roleplaying games, some classes and multiclass combinations are considered plain bad from a crunching point of view. This does not main they are forbidden by the game. Actually, players OFTEN purposely choose "Bad" classes and combinations to make their games more varied and flavorful.

To make it worse, if I am correct about this assumption, the H5 skill system I think doesn't even allows for "adding" such skills to a hero of a class if they don't appear by default in that class. (it's not like in H3 where you could learn a skill even if it had 0% chance on levelup) - So you cannot even use it yourself via script or custom map. The only way is re-modding and this would make your game online-incompatible. All because of a straightjacketing decision based on personal taste...
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 13, 2017 12:18 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 12:20, 13 Sep 2017.

@fierro: your problem is not hex-editing, but amount of work. Take a look at data files of xazardous skillwheel mod for a start.

@Nimostar: your comments have hardly any relevancy for H5 or H55, so I'm not going to spend too much time on this.

But just as an example the only 'sideshow' that is currently missing from the non-magic heroes of Haven is destructive magic, which is replaced by combat that offers might heroes to do much more melee damage instead and unique abilities that were previously not available.

This destructive sideshow wasn't available in H5 toe either, since even if you get the skill you wouldn't get the spells. At least the perks in h55 offer the player an opportunity to get some by leveling.

Math of combinatorics can easily prove that h55 has more possible skill combinations per faction than any other game in the homm series. (and not just a little bit more). Trying to find weaknesses by comparing with other games is not going to be very fruitful
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Nargott
Nargott


Adventuring Hero
posted September 15, 2017 11:54 PM
Edited by Nargott at 00:34, 16 Sep 2017.

Quote:
Nargott proposition is to make vitality bonus to +3.

It is misunderstanding.
Vitality can't be +3 HP. Scripts do +percentage to HP, not +1.

I wrote that Vitality is approximate to +3 original (5%) defence stat. And +4-5 to original (5%) attack stat is approximate power of Battle Frenzy.

Vitality is good perk, and Battle Frenzy is ultimative perk, but both of them are compulsory, without any effective variants ignoring them.

In WGE I put Vitality at tier-1 perk, and Battle Frenzy at tier-2 after Tactics but the same solution doesn't approach to MMH5.5. Because here the other perks are very weak in comparisson with that two. If you follow to minor "+2 stat of 3.33%" bonuses per common perk, I have no idea how to fit these perks into that small-perks system.

The situation looks something like this: player take basical skill, then necessarily take the super middle-perk of that skill, and only after that there is any variability (the order of taking super perk may be different, but it does not matter).

Quote:
1- Not all combinations, SOME combinations. You are leaving just ONE magic school. It is obvious nearly all if not ALL knights will use this magic school then, if only by a little boost. This takes out all variation in the class.

+1 I wrote the same at Russian forum.
There is very poor magic for Might heroes. If human knight will have a dark magic (rare?), it will be ok.
But how to do effective Summoning/Destructive extra magic for other might heroes, it's a problem. Because of all Might heroes has small Spellpower and Knowledge. There is a drawback of new class system: valid are only two combinations (attack + defence) and (spellpower + knowledge). Any other combinations (attack + spellpower, attack + knowledge, defence + spellpower, defence + knowledge) are "invalid". This is a Heroes-3 natural stats system, but not Heroes-5.
If authors think that any altered combinations are weak, maybe it is worth considering how to make them stronger and return them to game?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 12:43 AM

Quote:
There is very poor magic for Might heroes.


Of course, that is why they are called 'might heroes'.

There is no point in arguing they need destructive magic, since they already have destructive magic, it is called BALLISTA and MELEE.

Might heroes can also use shatter skills to summon additional elemental creatures.

Quote:
There is a drawback of new class system: valid are only two combinations (attack + defence) and (spellpower + knowledge). Any other combinations (attack + spellpower, attack + knowledge, defence + spellpower, defence + knowledge) are "invalid".


There are classes in the game for all these combinations, but leveling up only accounts for a small portion of primary skills. there is also 'tertiary skillsystem' = Artifacts and adventure map.

Also in H55 Knowledge is also a might skill because Knowledge = more troops and better economy.
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Nargott
Nargott


Adventuring Hero
posted September 16, 2017 12:52 AM
Edited by Nargott at 01:51, 16 Sep 2017.

If knowledge is "Might" parameter, where is Might classes with high knowledge 30-50?
Is that parameter only for "economic, non-combat" heroes? If yes, this is "Economic", not Might skill

Quote:
There are classes in the game for all these combinations

I haven't see them too. The only exception is Assassin (attack + spellpower = 70%). If sum is less than 70% than group is not enough strong. 45 + 30 = 75% is classic.

Quote:
There is no point in arguing they need destructive magic, since they already have destructive magic, it is called BALLISTA and MELEE.

Yes, there are alternatives if you have no mana or spellpower to cast magic. Human knights doesn't have neither spellpower, nor mana. That's why only secondary Dark is ok (but he hasn't). But what about other Might classes? Is it neccessary to dublicate SP / Kn stats of Knight? If yes, that there are no options for Destruction.

If you return Attack + Knowledge Might-classes, then there are will be especially strong ballista.

I understand, you like the system with only one magic school for might-heroes, because it seems to be beauty and logical, therefore you write that combat + ballista are enough magic-proxy. But any system has ways to improve it. For example, if Knight has popular Light but rare (4% or less) Dark. This is not common, but secondary school, which may be used for do some surprises for an opponent (or for the neutrals ).

For example, you put both Offence and Defence to Magic classes (commonly to rare 4% skills but they are here). Offence & Deffence are classical "Might Schools". There are two might-schools available for Magic heroes, not the only one magic-school for Might heroes

In my opinion, your class-system means that:
1) Might-classes suffer because they have the only one legal Magic school
2) Balanced-classes suffer because they haven't any profile group of stats
3) Magic-classes suffer because they have useless Knowledge which they can't use as good as Spellpower (because even high-level spells are cheap)

Yes, there are class "features" but are they necessary?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 01:56 AM

Quote:
Is that parameter only for "economic, non-combat" heroes? If yes, this is "Economic", not Might skill


It is primarily for main heroes, I recommend playing at least one RMG map size Medium + UG or larger, otherwise the discussion will end up in me and dredknight needing to explain all kinds of obvious stuff.

Quote:
If sum is less than 70% than group is not enough strong.


Theoretical, does not translate in any ingame problem.

Quote:
which may be used for do some surprises for an opponent (or for the neutrals).


Then pick another class for these surprises, the might class uses shatter skills for another kind of surprise. You cannot have all the surprises combined in one class.

In H55 there are also some renegade knights that use dark, but that is beside the point.

Quote:
There are two might-schools available for Magic heroes, not the only one magic-school for Might heroes


Magic heroes cannot have war machines or leadership, might cannot have sorcery or occultism. Every class shatters the magic schools it cannot learn.
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strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted September 16, 2017 02:34 AM

Nargott said:

In my opinion, your class-system means that:
1) Might-classes suffer because they have the only one legal Magic school

They have Leadership and buttload of stats for army.
Nargott said:

2) Balanced-classes suffer because they haven't any profile group of stats

You've thrown all "balanced" classes, which would I call hybrid, into one basket and then declared they "suffer" all over the place.
Examples of lacking hybrid classes pls.
Nargott said:

3) Magic-classes suffer because they have useless Knowledge which they can't use as good as Spellpower (because even high-level spells are cheap)

Don't know where you get a "cheap" part from, but getting "cheap" spells require a huge investment in artis, skills and knowledge. And even then you have to artificially prolong the fights to make spells truly cheap.
Nargott said:

Yes, there are class "features" but are they necessary?

Still more features than 1 skill preset per faction in TotE.

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Nargott
Nargott


Adventuring Hero
posted September 16, 2017 02:37 AM
Edited by Nargott at 03:16, 16 Sep 2017.

Quote:
It is primarily for main heroes, I recommend playing at least one RMG map size Medium + UG or larger, otherwise the discussion will end up in me and dredknight needing to explain all kinds of obvious stuff.

I had already talk with Dredknight about knowledge in very long 3+ monthes games, and he says that heroes with 40-50% knowledge are not combat main heroes, only economical, how I understand.

If 40-50% knowledge is combat stat, where is classes with that stat, except mini-artifact Wizard?

Quote:
Theoretical, does not translate in any ingame problem.

I don't agree because I have enough experience to build dwarves heroes in original game with that terrible 60% defence + spellpower stats. Because you can't planning you strategy if you can't be sure in your stats. Sometimes random of stats breakes your plans if you played dwarves.
The first 40-50% stat is guaranted that stat will be high. The second 30% will be normal. If both stats are around the 30%, it's very non-comfortable.

Dredknight said the same (how I understand), balanced classes has disadvantage because of their stats.

Quote:
Then pick another class for these surprises, the might class uses shatter skills for another kind of surprise. You cannot have all the surprises combined in one class.

Maybe shatter skills is good in your game as main skills not only generating elementals (which are not surprise). But type of Magic is key element, it differs any builds principially. Because Magic is active ability.

I think that all classes must have variability in magic schools, at least two. This is not strong position, in WGE I have try some classes with only one Magic school (although others were 2% rare), and some classes with 3 Magic schools. The one Magic school seems to be good at system but played bad individually by sameness and predictability. 3 schools played good individually but seems bad at system because of universality (no races, no classes features). That's why, by experienced way, I come to conclusion that optimum is native 2 schools, with the only exception of 4 schools for Archmage (Elementalist in MMH5.5). Leadership, Luck, Offence, Defence and others may be differ but the native Magic Schools are basical.

There is only my opinion, you may agree or disagree with it. My aim is show the ways, use them or not, it's your decision. The question is not "is it your system good enough?". The question is "will your system be better with second (rare) school for might-classes?" 2 magics + 2 shatters versus 1 magic + 3 shatters.

Quote:
Don't know where you get a "cheap" part from, but getting "cheap" spells require a huge investment in artis, skills and knowledge. And even then you have to artificially prolong the fights to make spells truly cheap.

Cheap means that at high levels your knowledge is running to sky, I see even 600+ mana at one of the stream. And only 20 mana cost for 5-level spells.

Quote:
Examples of lacking hybrid classes pls.

Any class without 40+% primary skill.

Quote:
Still more features than 1 skill preset per faction in TotE.

TotE is a game we don't discuss.
The questions are what ways we can improve the game, but not which is better, TotE or MMH5.5.

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