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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design
Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 06, 2015 01:24 PM

Quote:
My question is, all the special skills that were specific to certain factions are gone, am I right? That like 20 skills down the drain doesn't it ;( ?


No, the only removed skills are seal of light and dark/ which are identical to shatter skills. TOE contains dozens of useless and unbalanced skills, which are all made effective in H55, the amount of effective skills in H55 is far greater than in TOE.

Quote:
Look at the wheel, every faction changes it a bit, that because it adds special faction related skills, and remove others.
http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=520


None of these skills are removed

Quote:
Another point, in the mod's skill system, each school(Shatter excluded) has 7 skills into it. In the old skill system, there are certainly more then 7, often up to 9.


In H55 racial skills also have 7 perks, while in TOE they have only 3, those have just moved, they are not removed.
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devilfire
devilfire


Adventuring Hero
posted September 14, 2015 09:56 PM

Do you think it would be a good idea to change Dark Ritual OR Consume corpse in Occultism. They are both mana regeneration perks and they feel very overlapping.

Also is Cult Masters Corpse Explosion hardcoded or something ? Its pretty useless to have a fireball with 1 Power point. I really like that part with the casters but the explosion itself feels like a filler.

One more thing: If you want Rage of the elements you will be left with no perks to regenerate mana. 2 out of the 3 mana regenerating perks in the game are in occultism but you won`t be able to get them because of the tree. The only choice that you can take is Dark Magic`s Spirit link and Dark Magic is pretty useless for elemental vision.

If you change one of the mana regeneration perks in Occultism that problem will be solved naturally.

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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 15, 2015 06:58 AM

Hi Devilfire - Occultism is pretty strong now - both skill and perks.

The regen perks may be weak but the one following are very strong so this is for compensation. Same goes for Rage of the Elements - if you want it you need to find mana regen on other trees. (Enlightenment or Sorcery).


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devilfire
devilfire


Adventuring Hero
posted September 15, 2015 12:48 PM

I don`t mean that they are weak, I mean they are overlapping each other. Its like this skill tree have 2 perks that have the same usage. It would be better if one of them go in another tree for more variety.

What would be the benefits of changing one of the skills -> this will unlock one more tree for mana regeneration (so if you want to have some sort of mana regeneration you will have a wider choice, not limited to just a few). Occultism will have one slot for an interesting skill instead of the same skill with different mechanics which mean that you will have a choice -> pick the mana regen from occultism and take a damage (for example) from another skill or take the damage from occultism and take the mana regen from another skill tree. Of course it can have utility, or supportive perk (it doesnt have to be another damage dealing perk..).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 15, 2015 12:57 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 12:58, 15 Sep 2015.

Quote:
Also is Cult Masters Corpse Explosion hardcoded or something ? Its pretty useless to have a fireball with 1 Power point. I really like that part with the casters but the explosion itself feels like a filler.


Yes, hardcoded, so i added effect to make the skill useful.

Quote:
One more thing: If you want Rage of the elements you will be left with no perks to regenerate mana.


You don't want to take rage of elements without elemental vision and empowered spells.

There is still mysticism, arcane training, erratic mana, plague tent, various knowledge boosters and 3 mana regenrating artifacts.
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devilfire
devilfire


Adventuring Hero
posted September 15, 2015 11:55 PM
Edited by devilfire at 00:32, 16 Sep 2015.

I hope I don`t sound as someone who is not appreciating all the work that you did because I am not. And I really thank you for doing this, because its awesome.

The things that I think should be changed (and I hope it would sound more constructive than complaining) are:

1. Imbue Ballista -> only Rangers are able to learn Avenger and this is a part of it. This skill is most desired by mages but only a might hero can learn it. It sound really odd. First Rangers don`t have enough spellpower to compete with the mages, second they don`t have enough mana to support multiple casts from a triple imbued ballista and third if he want this to work he will have to sacrifice more than half of his skill slots (he CAN do that but why .. isn`t this the point of the multiclass system) /there was a bug that caused the triple imbued ballista to consume hero`s initiative, is it fixed here ?/

2. Herald of death -> it needs leadership, its a good change that its useful for undeads now but its perks are still not good for undeads. Maybe add something to Herald of death so that it would still be useful even if you don`t pick Diplomacy (for example add the old bone ward -> undead creatures gets 20 % reduced dmg from Destructive spells or the old chlling bones but with bigger % returned dmg). Also half of the Leadership is for Morale users. Can you make alternative perks for Undeads ?

3. Stronghold is handicapped. After the rework of the skill design they are no longer better at countering magic than everyone else. Also they can`t cast spells and they don`t have three of the last tier perks (Power of Speed, Power of Endurance and Celestial shield), I think it would be a good idea to replace those perks with something that can be used by Stronghold just for them (it doesnt need to be changed for any other faction). And blood rage seems to be nerfed ? (or I`m mistaken..?. Also Shatter destructive magic have Celestial Shield, but the skill is going to be picked mostly by Might hero, while the perk is heavy SP dependant.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2015 12:24 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 12:26, 16 Sep 2015.

Quote:
I hope I don`t sound as someone who is not appreciating all the work that you did because I am not.


You don't sound like that at all.

Quote:

1. Imbue Ballista -> only Rangers are able to learn Avenger and this is a part of it. This skill is most desired by mages but only a might hero can learn it. It sound really odd. First Rangers don`t have enough spellpower to compete with the mages, second they don`t have enough mana to support multiple casts from a triple imbued ballista and third if he want this to work he will have to sacrifice more than half of his skill slots (he CAN do that but why .. isn`t this the point of the multiclass system) /there was a bug that caused the triple imbued ballista to consume hero`s initiative, is it fixed here ?/


I understand, but the skill is hardcoded tied to imbue arrow, so its the only option.

Quote:
2. Herald of death -> it needs leadership, its a good change that its useful for undeads now but its perks are still not good for undeads. Maybe add something to Herald of death so that it would still be useful even if you don`t pick Diplomacy (for example add the old bone ward -> undead creatures gets 20 % reduced dmg from Destructive spells or the old chlling bones but with bigger % returned dmg). Also half of the Leadership is for Morale users. Can you make alternative perks for Undeads ?


Death knights get attack bonus from leadership, so they can take it. However I prefer to have howl of terror balanced (hardcoded) and then change it. i cannot modify herald of death itself.

Quote:
3. Stronghold is handicapped.


No they are not, they were outrageously overpowered, now they are ok.
warcries are as good as high level spells without the need to learn a school.
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LordLydon
LordLydon

Tavern Dweller
posted October 19, 2015 05:28 PM
Edited by LordLydon at 18:03, 19 Oct 2015.

Very impressive vision Magnomagus!  It's nice to see such a well designed and thematic Skill Tree/Class system.

Just a few SMALL comments,

- The "Classes Overview" Screen (in-game manual) should display all of a faction's classes in the same line. (Might - Balance - Magic) so it's easier to identify for new players.

Knight     - Paladin    - Heretic
Ranger     - Warden     - Druid
Seer       - Wizard     - Elementalist
Engineer   - Runemage   - Flamekeeper
Chieftain  - Veteran    - Shaman
Overlord   - Assassin   - Warlock
Death Kni. - Reaver     - Necromancer
Demon Lord - Gatekeeper - Sorcerer

Also on that page, it's not clear what you mean by "2 dead versions of the Heaven classes"... maybe after that sentence you can write those specific classes in brackets?


- The 8 individual faction/race buttons (top-left under the Skill Tree buttons) could also have the "Good" factions on the top row and "Evil" factions" on the bottom row.

Heaven - Sylvan - Academy - Fortress
Stronghold - Dungeon - Necropolis - Inferno


- And I REALLY dislike the Combat/Damage Display Window being at the TOP of the Combat Screen.  It really needs to be at the bottom, there is room right above the combat lineup. (and since I'm nitpicking; the Surrender & Auto-Combat buttons should be switched)

Again great work Magnomagus!  HoMM5 has never been my personal favorite but your mod will definitely make me play it a lot more.

Also, could you please list the very few Skills that you did remove from the game?

Thanks.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 19, 2015 08:41 PM

Quote:
Also on that page, it's not clear what you mean by "2 dead versions of the Heaven classes"... maybe after that sentence you can write those specific classes in brackets?


knight = death knight, but dead

Quote:
- And I REALLY dislike the Combat/Damage Display Window being at the TOP of the Combat Screen.  It really needs to be at the bottom, there is room right above the combat lineup. (and since I'm nitpicking; the Surrender & Auto-Combat buttons should be switched)


remove MMH55-ATB.pak from your data folder to revert to normal

Quote:
Also, could you please list the very few Skills that you did remove from the game?


only seal light/dark, those are identical to shatter perks. and chilling bones.
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LordLydon
LordLydon

Tavern Dweller
posted October 19, 2015 11:28 PM
Edited by LordLydon at 23:55, 19 Oct 2015.

I'm not too familiar with HoMM5 Skills/Perks but from what I read on the previous pages, Critical Gating (aka Swarming Gate??) and Howl of Terror are also not available, at least not yet.

And I agree with your stated reasons for removing them. (overpowered & nowhere to place them) I just wanted to know what/how things have changed.

Thanks for the Combat Screen reversion tip!

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 20, 2015 03:39 PM

You're right i forgot about those.
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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted November 05, 2015 03:56 PM

So how do you guys evaluate Power of Stone, ulti for Defense (mass stone skin)? Is it strong, weak, do you find it useful?

My favorite build with a might hero (8 skills) would be:

Logistics (with Pathfinding)
Defense (Vitality + Stand your ground)
Combat (all the way to Preparation - which a value the most)
Offense (Tactics as a must for Preparation)
- as for the other two perks what do you guys think is better to go for Retribution from Leadership combo, or to go Flaming arrows with triple balista from War Machines?
(I do not value too high Power of speed = mass haste, so I never go for it. especially because it prevents you from getting Preparation. in other combinations it can still be very valuable)

usually I prefer to have both those skills:
War machines(plague tent + balista at early, but switch to triple balista late game)
Leadership (Aura of swiftness)

Dark magic (magic school that is available for specific type of hero)

- and what is the best 8th skill choice in this might hero build? Luck?


Can you come up with best build for might hero with only 6 skills?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 05, 2015 04:37 PM

I think power of speed and stone are very useful for heroes without light magic.

My intention for the skill system design was to have not such a thing as a best build.

The effectiveness of skills depends on class and composition of the army. The alternate upgrade system allows for 2^7=128 different compositions. Big difference with heroes 3 which allows only 1


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devilfire
devilfire


Adventuring Hero
posted November 05, 2015 09:48 PM
Edited by devilfire at 21:49, 05 Nov 2015.

@Belsarius

It depends on which race you are and what are you going to fight.

For pure might I prefer to take:

1.Logistics - Pathfinding, Scouting, Battlefield Logistics (or Estates if I feel that I will have a hard start)
2.Offense - Tactics, Battle Frenzy, Retribution
3.Defense - Vitality and one of the combos -> Evasion, Stand your ground or Armorer, Forge Master - depending on if I am against Might then the first, if I am against magic then the second
4.Luck - Soldier`s luck, Critical Hit, Magic Resistance -> if I am afraid of the magic heroes then I will swap Critical Hit with Warrior`s luck
5.Leadership - Prayer, Recruitment, Encourage -> the reason for not taking Aura of Swiftness is that I took Tactics, if not then Aura of Swiftness instead of Tactics
6.Light Magic - Master of Wrath, Teleport Assault, Master of Blessings

Reason for my choices - in 5.5 there are more ways to farm than just War Machines, it would be a little slower but still you won`t waste a slot for it. I prefer to take the magic resistance from Luck, while making my troops a lot more resistant to ranged attacks from Defence. With Light magic you don`t need to go for the mass blessings because your hero will have even better ones. I`m considering Erratic mana instead of Warriors Luck because Might heroes tend to have low mana pools and its a pretty good return for one point. If there is memory mentor I would swap Logistics with Enlightment.

I am not a fan of Combat, having Erratic Mana + Light Magic would be enough to casts instead of auto attacking. I like it with Haven tho, using Retaliation Strike + Unstoppable Change on Griffons is game changing, not to mention Preparation.


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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 10, 2015 03:48 PM

Necromancer town and respective hero classes along with their skills and specializations were somewhat changed in MMH5.5. In recent editions of the mod they were further improved. Now there are some reports from community as if they are somewhat OP. I contribute those sightings as proof of actual improvement of Necromancer race in-general. And I welcome those changes. The way I see necromancer race in heroes is that they need and should be able to overwhelm the map with undead armies. If left unchecked during the game that is. There always should be a zombie apocalypse threat looming at late game. So it is in my belief that Necromancers as they are at current stage, with recent improvements, are just fine. Or at least we are moving in the right direction.

What about Barbarians? Is there barbarian onslaught threat?
Barbarians had some unique characteristics in vanilla TOTE. They were in fact OP, considering all. So changes were made in MMH5.5, and they are very much put in place as part of the overall game balance. But still I cannot escape the feeling that we have not achieved the true picture of Barbarians, yet.
Can something be done with them, but without interrupting game balance? Or are they just fine as they are? What are your thoughts on Barbarians?
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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted December 10, 2015 04:49 PM
Edited by dredknight at 16:52, 10 Dec 2015.

Currently we have 3 issues with necropolis.
1. they stack too much army
2. player can use all points for one type of unit only.
3. mind spell immunity and the idea that moral do not affect them makes dark magic undesirable against them. this means that most of the time you wont have mass slow to at least slow them down.

on week 4 i have about 400+ dark energy points.
This mean that one additionally raises (exept the population) the following number of units each week.

for 400 DP:

If they are:
L1 - 130 skeltons per week
L2 - 60+ upgraded zombies
L3 - 30+ upgraded ghosts
L4 - 13 upgraded vampires
L5 - 6 upgraded liches
L6 - 3 (almost 4) upgraded wrights
L7 - 2 upgraded bone dragons.

We are talking one of the 7 options you can add it PER WEEK besides the daily population. And this is just end of month 1 and with 1 Necropolis castle - add further +150 dark points for each castle and you get what I mean.

I dont want to be so negative, some of the options are not that overpowed - for example - 2 dragons per week is not that strong they are quite mediocre unit and die fast in PvP plus you cant fight tier 7 units that often.

Wraiths - the strongest tier 6 unit. 4 units is too much. I think it should be as much as dragons 2  per week cause they are similar in strength.

Liches - One of the best tier 5 units, mage, can shoot, cannot be blinded or forgotfulnessed but easily blocked. Not sure if the count is balanced or not so lets stay the same.

Vampires - definitely the most OP unit when it comes to numbers. You never lose vampires as they regenerate or you can heal them with tent OR hero or Lich can use Raise dead on them. There should be penalty for raising this using compared to others.

Ghosts, zombies and skelies - good units especially in numbers they overwhelm the enemy. The problem is that all stacks overwhelm the enemy on it own...

I think the requirements perunit should be changed depending on how important is this unit - for example zombies and skelies are slow so the adjustment is their numbers should not alter the game that much but vampires are whole another story.
They have 7-8 speed and no retaliation AND revive so they can focus on viable targets and wipe them out.

Same go for Wraiths as they are very powerful though their size and speed make them a bit more clumsy.
I will propose a new dark points solution till the end of the year but I need to sort those things a bit more in my head.

Another thing that I have noticed is too powerful is the Warlock classes.
They get Uber high spell power in just few levels (due to occultism bonus) and natural high chance of SP and grind really easy with invisibility units even on high map levels.

I have managed to beat Griffin tower on WEEK 1 with just 50-60 stalkers and Warlock.
I got suggestion on how to balance them though!

Make the occultism spell power bonus disperced on per level basis for example.
Basic/advanced/expert occultism give +1/+1/+1 SP bonus instead of +1/+2/+3.
The hero receives this bonus for every 20 levels so afer lvl 20 he will get another +1/+1/+1 (which will make the spec just as strong as it is just not so early) on level 40 he will get another +1/+1/+1/.
On small maps other heroes do not have much chance against them. this happened on our current game with matod actually.
Despite the fact I got Advanced shatter destruction, advanced luck + MR + second chance MR perk, defense + 15% damage reduction.
He suffered huge damage reduction bonus and he still could do huge damage for the state the game was.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 10, 2015 06:32 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 18:33, 10 Dec 2015.

Quote:
I have managed to beat Griffin tower on WEEK 1 with just 50-60 stalkers and Warlock.


50-60 stalkers in week 1, I don't think that's possible in 99% of cases.

Quote:
Make the occultism spell power bonus disperced on per level basis for example.
Basic/advanced/expert occultism give +1/+1/+1 SP bonus instead of +1/+2/+3.
The hero receives this bonus for every 20 levels so afer lvl 20 he will get another +1/+1/+1 (which will make the spec just as strong as it is just not so early) on level 40 he will get another +1/+1/+1/.
On small maps other heroes do not have much chance against them. this happened on our current game with matod actually.
Despite the fact I got Advanced shatter destruction, advanced luck + MR + second chance MR perk, defense + 15% damage reduction.
He suffered huge damage reduction bonus and he still could do huge damage for the state the game was.


Still, it is hard to gather from this post whether warlocks victory was caused by creatures not dying from invisibility or by actual spell damage. Since I cut elemental vision damage in half there is little relevant difference between warlocks, flamekeepers or elementalists.

Do you have a replay of this?

and exactly how small was your map?
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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted December 10, 2015 08:27 PM

magnomagus said:
Quote:
I have managed to beat Griffin tower on WEEK 1 with just 50-60 stalkers and Warlock.



50-60 stalkers in week 1, I don't think that's possible in 99% of cases.


Spelling mistake. It should be month 1, week 3-4.

magnomagus said:

Do you have a replay of this?

and exactly how small was your map?


Map is medium, no underground, no water, monsters are very strong. 3 zones - one for each player. I dont have replay of this forgot to make one .

We will have more games with matod on small maps I will keep you posted.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 10, 2015 08:37 PM

Ok, thanks, I guess you didn't find any of those -50% Dmg artifacts you previously complained about?

I will think a bit longer about necro, come back later.

Quote:
But still I cannot escape the feeling that we have not achieved the true picture of Barbarians, yet.
Can something be done with them, but without interrupting game balance? Or are they just fine as they are? What are your thoughts on Barbarians?


I'm quite happy so far, If there is a problem i think you have to be more specific?
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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 10, 2015 10:10 PM
Edited by Belisarius at 22:46, 10 Dec 2015.

Quote:
But still I cannot escape the feeling that we have not achieved the true picture of Barbarians, yet.
Can something be done with them, but without interrupting game balance? Or are they just fine as they are? What are your thoughts on Barbarians?


Quote:
I'm quite happy so far, If there is a problem i think you have to be more specific?


It is not a specific thing like a spell or a perk, a skill. It is more of a general conception for Barbarians. By balancing this race, and making some of those unique characteristics they used to have available for every race, Barbarians lost their "charm".

What do Barbarians have right now? What is their thing in the game? When balanced like it is now, opposite to vanilla when it was OP, Rage is simply not enough. Not enough to make up for this race genuineness, that was lost. Not enough to give this race every thing they used to have, and that is now available for everybody. I mean pretty much every race can now be played Crag Hack style.

Opposite to this example, is... let's say Dungeon. Dungeon "lost" its unique occultism. It is not unique anymore. And that is good. Excellent. But still Dungeon can be played as quite strong magic race. It's magic heroes are still one of the most "feared" magicians. While also they have now the option to be played Crag Hack style. And that is brilliant.
But in all the changes made from the vanilla game, Barbarians are the ones that lost what they uniquely used to have, while they did not receive enough to compensate. I mean they can't be be played as strong Magic race now, can they?
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