Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design
Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 26, 2017 05:03 PM
Edited by dredknight at 17:17, 26 Aug 2017.

magnomagus said:
Nice to see the mod has a good following in russia.

could you add the following points:

-H55 is not based on 3.0 and is also not based on 3.1, it is based on a personal source code with personal bug fixes, you could call it '3.0.6', it has some bugs from 3.0, but also some bugs fixed from 3.1. It doesn't recognize most of the script commands from 3.1, It has 95% widescreen implementation (only the spellbook doesn't work)

Somebody already replied with similar answer about EE.

magnomagus said:
-mass spell atb effect cannot be removed completely, a number has to be inserted to replace the byte.

Ok.
magnomagus said:

in response to your own post:

Shatters are added to all factions to replace skills that were in TOE completely useless and didn't fit the class from a lore perspective. For example a knight cannot use summoning and destructive properly because it doesn't develop the required spellpower. It also just looks weird. H4 and H3 had generic spellschool defenses as spells, so it is just a minor step to make it skills, nothing new or blasphemy. A knight with destructive magic is blasphemy. A paladin with both light and shatter dark is perfect harmony.

Thanks.
magnomagus said:

P.S. I don't understand this guys point about retaliation strikes doing 25% damage, according to manual retaliation strikes do 100% damage??


He means that retaliation strikes overall happen less often that offensive strikes or archery shots. I dont know where he picked that value but I believe he has made some equations based on the  H5.5 WGE he works on.

I agree with him that retaliation strikes occur less often but Combat is good as it is. Otherwise defensive tactics will be favoured way too much and players will just turtle behind. As a matter of fact I pick it  very often it helps a lot for early PvE and deals good damage in the later PvP.
I have a couple of new strategies I want to try with it but I don't have time to play the last couple of months.


P.S.

He did a couple of good proposals so far here is the list.
- Remote control to go after -> Artificial glory and March of the golems. It just fits lore wise. I have a hunch that this will make the branch a bit stronger than the others though.

- Retribution damage to be lowered from 2.5% to 2% per moral point. without leadership this is 4% with expert leadership it will be 10%.

Now it is 5% without and 12.5% with expert Leadership.

He is correct that this is a lot of damage for one perk. It does not fit the 2-primary skill per perk math but I have not done enough tests to confirm it is too strong.

- Gating gain bonuses are not ok. Gating gives 15/20/25% gating bonus now. He proposes to give 25% for all levels as Basic/Advanced/Expert Gating actually unlocks gating for the tiers which is good enough.

- Also Spellbook (including Stronghold) has become somehow disproportional. They (another people from the forum) that for some reason our mode make it very large.
These are the link1and link2 with video material. I have fogotten long ago how original ones looked like.
____________
Find an opponent at HoMM55 Tavern! | NCF Utility Alpha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted August 26, 2017 05:26 PM

dredknight said:
Gating gain bonuses are not ok. Gating gives 15/20/25% gating bonus now. He proposes to give 25% for all levels as Basic/Advanced/Expert Gating actually unlocks gating for the tiers which is good enough.

Don't you get another +10% bonus from a town building?
____________
Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 26, 2017 05:59 PM
Edited by dredknight at 17:59, 26 Aug 2017.

Town bonus is reduced to 5%

@Magno, is the new damage formula for castle towers included in the current release or it will be in the next one?
____________
Find an opponent at HoMM55 Tavern! | NCF Utility Alpha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 26, 2017 06:11 PM

The spellbook is the widescreen issue I was talking about, so I thought my answer was better

I don't know what causes the stronghold spellbook issue, I have never seen it before.

I don't see any gating issue, in early game the size of the gated stack is hardly relevant, the ability to block an enemy, disable a shooter or let it waste its retaliation is mostly 90% of the gated stacks purpose.






____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 26, 2017 06:40 PM
Edited by dredknight at 20:42, 26 Aug 2017.

Sure but what if late game you go level 30 and stay on basic gating. the difference (although small) is still deference and you still gate just vermins and demons.

magnomagus said:
The spellbook is the widescreen issue I was talking about, so I thought my answer was better

;DDDDDDDD it is just his post is so long I couldn't focus in anything else.

Ok some other stuff that arose. Nargott asks why the perk after Avenging strike called Armored Spikes gives +2 attack and defense if a perk costs 2 primary stats?

I assumed that avenging strike perk is unreliable because it depends on enemy maneuvers but somehow I am not really convinced by my own deduction. any thoughts?

Also he has found a way to make Mass spell casting with 0.0 ATB. I asked him how.

p.s.

Here you go a link with a patched 3.1 exe that has 0.0 for mass spells. He said he did not test it thoroughly but he found no issues so far.

He also asked if 0.0 is not working if we have tried with 0.01 or 0.001 for example?

____________
Find an opponent at HoMM55 Tavern! | NCF Utility Alpha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 26, 2017 08:54 PM

it would be a lot of work for me to find the relevant byte in that exe file, could you not just asked what value he added to the patch 0, 0.0 or 0.01? or did he work manually?

____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 26, 2017 09:07 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 21:08, 26 Aug 2017.

Quote:
Ok some other stuff that arose. Nargott asks why the perk after Avenging strike called Armored Spikes gives +2 attack and defense if a perk costs 2 primary stats?


I go from the assumption that every perk is worth rougly 2 primary skills, but often perks at the end of a branch are stronger. In combat the baseskill is not very strong and chain attack is easier to use than mark of the damned so preparation and armor spikes need to offer a better deal on the other branches. If people don't have doubts about what to choose then the balance is off.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 26, 2017 09:43 PM
Edited by dredknight at 10:49, 27 Aug 2017.

He said he used 0.0 for the value.

P.S. also Nargott made a point where due to Combat being a bit weaker the "Armored spikes" bonus of +2/+2 should be given at once and not after level 20.

P.S.S

I slept on that thought and I think we can disregard this change as this will turn into a favourable choice. Even though 2 stats are not that a big deal I like it as it is now.

Cheers
____________
Find an opponent at HoMM55 Tavern! | NCF Utility Alpha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 27, 2017 10:33 PM

@Magno,

One more thing from the Russian forum. @Nargott provided me with this command - WarpHeroExp. He said you can increase hero level for the duration of a battle only with it. Does it exist in the Q.exe?

They proposed the "armored spikes" to further improve hero damage in battle with this command or be exchanged for it because it seems to generic.

Personally I don't think it is a good idea as Might heroes with Combat already hit very good.

So far we have had some discussions on Might skills and perks mainly as they consider them weak. I try to explain that Might skills bonuses stack with each other and complement the creature through the whole battle for free (hero does not need to spend ATB) but I think I kind of fail with my explanations. If you have anything to add let me know.

____________
Find an opponent at HoMM55 Tavern! | NCF Utility Alpha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 28, 2017 01:02 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 01:12, 28 Aug 2017.

I don't think you fail with your explanations, but it is not easy communicating when everything is google translated.

Maybe you guys spend a little too much time on the armor spikes perk. The guys says he never plays games longer than 3 months, but level 20 is really nothing in games that take 6, or 12 months. H55 should be balanced for any type of game but that doesn't mean that every perk must reach its maximum potential in a very short game.

Every perk basically has a different optimal learning moment, but the randomness of the system is supposed to add the excitement of getting lucky at the right moment or not.

Also take in mind the level 20 upgrade was originally designed for spellpower skills (you know why), this is less relevant for might skills but adds symmetry to the skill system.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted August 28, 2017 08:10 PM

How is luck of the barbarian bugged btw? Never really paid attention to it.
____________
Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted August 29, 2017 11:21 AM

It was giving 5% reduction regardless of your luck, instead of 5% per positive luck.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 30, 2017 09:37 AM

@Magnomagus,

We ditched the discussion in the Russian forum as we were having different perspective on the the core skill tree. I promised @Nargott I will forward his proposals so you can take a look at them and take anything that may be useful.

Google translates correct the whole post pretty decent.
____________
Find an opponent at HoMM55 Tavern! | NCF Utility Alpha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 30, 2017 02:49 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 14:59, 30 Aug 2017.

The idea to make magic classes have up to 50% knowledge and boost spell cost massively only works in game that completely resolve around a single human vs human battle. It doesn't work if the hero has to conquer lots of teritory battling dozens of huge neutral stacks.

It only creates variation on paper, not in practice. In practice those heros will just be forced into spellpower boosting perks. the variation between magic classes has to come from different combinations of magic schools.

The idea that any might boost perk needs to give a strong immediate boost doesn't make much sense. In HOMM3 Might heroes never get a strong boost at any point in the game, they just get small unnoticeable boosts with every levelup and then suddenly at level 30 you realize: 'wow these might heroes are just so much better than magic heroes'.

Might perks don't need to catch up with early game destructive magic damage. Might heroes answer that with war machines and higher combat damage. war machines = 'might destructive magic'.

All weak perks and overpowered perks in h55 are placed in such a way that ultimately the amount of invested slots is fair.

Nonetheless he is probably right about sorcery, I forgot the last 4% increases initiative much more than the first. If mass ATB goes to 0, sorcery will have to go back a little as well.

By the way, sorcery is a must have for magic heroes because Nival decided this was the way for hero initiative to catch up with creature initiative. This wasn't really my decision. In my opinion both hero initiative as well as logistics should increase a tiny bit with every level for every hero.

In summary, I'm considering to make the following changes to H55:

mass ATb 0
sorcery 16/24/32 or 10/20/30
combat 10/20/30
defense= same as offense
archery=15%
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 30, 2017 03:09 PM
Edited by dredknight at 15:20, 30 Aug 2017.

That seems good.
Also you do not mind copy pasting this post on the other forum?
____________
Find an opponent at HoMM55 Tavern! | NCF Utility Alpha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 30, 2017 03:35 PM

I don't mind.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 30, 2017 03:47 PM

Also could you do the following changes in defaultstats.xdb for the next release. This regards the Boss creatures update for NCF. Those are not final settings but this is what it will revolve for a first release.

Quote:

<Melee>
<HeroDamageLevel1>
<Item>3</Item>
<Item>2</Item>
<Item>1</Item>
<Item>0.8</Item>
<Item>0.5</Item>
<Item>0.3</Item>
<Item>0.2</Item>
<Item>0.01</Item>
</HeroDamageLevel1>
<HeroDamageLevel30>
<Item>24</Item>
<Item>18</Item>
<Item>12</Item>
<Item>8</Item>
<Item>5</Item>
<Item>3</Item>
<Item>1.5</Item>
<Item>0.1</Item>
</HeroDamageLevel30>
</Melee>


____________
Find an opponent at HoMM55 Tavern! | NCF Utility Alpha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 30, 2017 04:12 PM

ok,

just curious, did you test it? does it affect hero damage vs summoned hive?
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted August 30, 2017 05:43 PM
Edited by dredknight at 22:59, 30 Aug 2017.

Against hive I have not but against custom tier 8 is working.
I believe it should work without a problem. I will test it later and let you know.

P.S. Just tested it and it does affect damage against summoned hive.

In my opinion it will be great that the Swarm will not be killed by one hero attack now. This means offensive heroes should spend creature turns to kill the hive and not just use the hero attack for that purpose.
____________
Find an opponent at HoMM55 Tavern! | NCF Utility Alpha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted August 31, 2017 12:16 PM

The setting was 0.15, so it was already useless vs hive. But thinking about it 0.5 might actually be best balance for multiplayer, since the player with martial arts can try risking a hero turn to kill it in one blow (= same as cleansing spell with chance for failure). Any more than 2 turns would not be worth the trouble for hero turns.

I understand this conflicts with your plan but aren't you supposed to overwrite the defaultstats completely anyway, since there is no other way you are going to add the necro tables?
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0586 seconds