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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design
Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 02:13 PM

Quote:
paid advertisement: the MMH55 skillwheel has spellpower calculator. @Nargott you can go ahead and compare how SP numbers actually increase spell effectiveness.


with side note, slow is currently overpowered and will be fixed in next version.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 02:13 PM
Edited by Nargott at 14:30, 16 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
yeah so

10x0.4 = 4, +1 starting bonus
10x0.3 = 3

So end up

19 SP, +2A +2D
23 SP

Still no big deal, both scenarios are equally strong and battle can go either way.


You are very much mistaken, in PvP if other equal conditions, 23 spellpower have much more chances to win. Because the damage dealer of Magic builds is hero, not army. So +2 attack is near to +0. And +2 defence will be useful only against enemy Might hero, not in the Magic vs Magic battle.

Because players are not AI, they use their most strong features instead of simply exchanging blows of armies with supporting of hero. For example, all army may come to Stand Your Ground mode, so they don't deal any significant damage by itself but winning extra time for hero to kill all enemy armies with powerful spells (win race of the damage).

This is how I estimate the relative power of stats:

100% is value of the key stat
70% is value of the second important stat
50% is value of the third stat
35% is value of the less important stat

In PvP this method allows to fairly evaluate the force of artifacts, near to how much gold players are ready to spent for the artifact. Artifact of +1 to all 4 parameters is much weaker than artifact of +4 to the one parameter. Because if player buy it, he buy key parameters (and ignore other artifacts).
It is better to have +3 attack in offensive build than have +1 to all stats (summary +4).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 02:36 PM

Quote:
You are very much mistaken, in PvP if other equal conditions, 23 spellpower have much more chances to win. Because the damage dealer of Magic builds is hero, not army. So +2 attack is near to +0. And +2 defence will be useful only against enemy Might hero, not in the Magic vs Magic battle.


Only if army size is very small and balance design is very different from H55 this could be true.

In H55 this is not true,

If the game is very short players will only get low level spells and difference of +4 SP on lightning bolt is very small

Difference is only big on high level spells like Implosion, but by the time you will get to these army size has grown to the point where A&D matter much more.

..and even if not, there is still Deep Freeze, which is significantly less dependant on spell power, because the vulnerability effect is the best part.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 02:52 PM
Edited by Nargott at 15:11, 16 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
Only if army size is very small and balance design is very different from H55 this could be true.

In H55 this is not true,

If the game is very short players will only get low level spells and difference of +4 SP on lightning bolt is very small

Difference is only big on high level spells like Implosion, but by the time you will get to these army size has grown to the point where A&D matter much more.

..and even if not, there is still Deep Freeze, which is significantly less dependant on spell power, because the vulnerability effect is the best part.

All I said about +4 Spellpower is fair to +4 Attack also (for example) in TotE.

Quote:
In H55 this is not true,

I don't see reasons why is not true. What you are doing is delaying the game for a very long time, when Spellpower and natural Knowledge values have critical lower effects. That's why you create 3.33% parameters, weaking mass buffs/debuffs of Might heroes, weakening several abilities/perks and so on.
Yes, I believe that you can't win using all army at Stand Your Ground mode, because damage of hero's spells is very small.
But even if your army is more active, it has not supporting much battle bonus as Might hero, so +1 attack for Might hero is much greater than for your Magic hero.

You can easy see it in your duel mode, if give to both opposing heroes, Might and Magic, +10 attack bonus (for example), so Might hero takes advantage. Because attack is key stat for Might and is less important stat for Magic (lower is only knowledge? I don't know many mana you have in duels).
But if you give +10 defence bonus instead attack, the Magic hero takes advantage, because defence bonus is important against Might class (one of the key stat), and less important against Magic class.
And the same things if you give to both heroes +10 spellpower bonus, the Magic hero takes advantage again.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 03:05 PM

Quote:
What you are doing is delaying the game for a very long time,


No I'm improving the gameplay of the game when it is played 'normally'. No H55 player has ever complained to me about the pace of the game and I have been complimented frequently on the utility of Knowledge in H55 and players admitting they were still boosting it deliberately in late game.

You will first have to play the game if you want to make more meaningful   comments on it.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 03:18 PM
Edited by Nargott at 16:10, 16 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
Quote:
What you are doing is delaying the game for a very long time,


No I'm improving the gameplay of the game when it is played 'normally'. No H55 player has ever complained to me about the pace of the game and I have been complimented frequently on the utility of Knowledge in H55 and players admitting they were still boosting it deliberately in late game.

You will first have to play the game if you want to make more meaningful   comments on it.

For many people it is normal, to playing about 6 monthes, it's true.
And for many people it is normal, to playing about 2 monthes.
For me personally it is normal to playing about 1 month.

If you create balance for your comfortable long-time games, it is equal that supporting delaying games, relatively to that players who plays 2 monthes normally.

This is not critics, there is a fact - supporting long-time oriented game. This is not good or not bad, but specifics determines which people want to play this mod.

Quote:
No H55 player has ever complained to me about the pace of the game

Because I have theoretical interest in your mod.
But any other players have practical interest, and if they playing 1-2 monthes games, they don't want to try long-oriented game. Therefore they are not H55 players and not giving you feedback about timing.

I try to ask one of the TE players to play your modification at stream, but it is difficult. Because the answer is "what to do on the map 3+ monthes?"

But if you will have one of such TE players involved into play, who specialized in tournament fast, effective beating very big neutral armies, there will be very good practical recommendations from that player at game balance. And your opinions about how quickly map with huge neutrals can be passed, may be changed.

P.S. I was totally surprised when read that to pass Diamond template required 12 monthes of game In your opinion if a player likes fast game, he likes primitive rushing maps? In Heroes 3 I meet an opponent about 2-3 weeks of game on that template, having 5-6 towns at the same time. The key of such temp is the power of guards between zones.

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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 16, 2017 04:05 PM
Edited by dredknight at 16:14, 16 Sep 2017.

Nargott said:
I try to ask one of the TE players to play your modification at stream, but it is difficult. Because the answer is "what to do on the map 3+ monthes?"


Exactly. This is where the core of our conversation differences lies.
From perspective of old school ToTe players (and aligned mods) they have never seen the capabilities of the ARMG. Compared to ARMG even the  biggest ToTe maps are child's play.

Unless you try it you cannot understand the impact.


P.S. Also you are wrong about the feedback. We have a lot of feedback coming through different channels. First Almost everyone here besides a modder is a tester at some point I have more than 100 games for sure and when playing I always try to play different every time and find of ways to abuse the game. This is why I am sure the game is stable so I do not need to trouble myself to know all the numbers.

Also there is a huge wave of feedback about different things on facebook which I filter out to only the most valuable information which I carry to the forum.

There is a lot of feedback on moddb. Just browse the comments section of the home page.

The level of contribution to the mod is the highest I even seen for any game actually. People come help with some stuff and go. For example 90% of the translations are done by people I have barely talked with here or on FB.

When it comes to balancing the core people here filter out opinions of the community because we are not all knowing and math often fails on practice.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 04:13 PM
Edited by Nargott at 16:30, 16 Sep 2017.

dredknight said:
Nargott said:
I try to ask one of the TE players to play your modification at stream, but it is difficult. Because the answer is "what to do on the map 3+ monthes?"


Exactly. This is where the core of our conversation differences lies.
From perspective of old school ToTe players (and aligned mods) they have never seen the capabilities of the ARMG. Compared to ARMG even the  biggest ToTe maps are child's play.

Unless you try it you cannot understand the impact.

What is the size of your maps? In TotE there is maximum of 320x320.
The biggest map is, more delaying game is.

Quote:
because we are not all knowing and math often fails on practice.

Math never fails, but concrete people and math models may be more correct or less correct.
If you think that math fails, this is about you don't understand some things in your math model how they work.
IMHO

I am specialized in tactical combat and meet many people who doesn't understand how initiative, morale, offence, defence, timing and duration of effects work.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 04:20 PM

H55 has no bias towards long games or short games and is intended as platform to scale balance automatically to every type of game.

I am aware of course that 100% balance is theoretically impossible, also I am aware not every spell or skill in the game is equally valid in every phase of the game. But this is not a problem if alternatives are available. Expert players are aware of the scale of the game they are playing and will adjust their buildup accordingly.

From perspective of modmaker it is impossible to balance the game towards every possible scenario or arena people can create in the mapeditor. This has to go the other way around, mapmakers need to adjust their maps to H55, not the other way around. It is perfectly possible to design a map in the mapeditor for H55 that allows short games, but this map will obviously be different than if it was designed for WGE.

RMG maps can serve as reference point for what is considered 'normal' gameplay in H55, but the randomness of the RMG increases the change for unbalanced maps if they get smaller (T,S and Tu sizes are likely to require modification by hand to balance them appropriately).

Also pace of game is strongly affected by map density and a modmaker cannot prevent some people from placing objects extremely close together. which is fundamentally wrong from the perspective of how HOMM series was originally designed.
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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 16, 2017 04:21 PM
Edited by dredknight at 16:35, 16 Sep 2017.

Nargott said:

What is the size of your maps? In TotE there is maximum of 320x320.
The biggest map is, more delaying game is.


the RMG has option for such a big map but can it be generated ? The binary is 32 bit and can use limited amount of memory (up to 3GB).

If you try to generate such map the editor will crash.

MMH55 biggest map is 320x320 with underground.

I know your interest is theoretical but if you have the mod installed you will find a PDF called ARMG Manual.pdf in the game folder which explains everything about the ARMG, templates and philosophy of zones.

P.S.

I gave the original editor a try and for my amusement it managed to generate 320x320 map with underground without crashing.

However by looking at the map it feels very empty as objects are quite apart and repetitive. Adventure map creatures are just single stack and there are no formidable opponents. So the answer is:
- Yes you can make that ToTe map but no one will bother to play it as it does not provide any challenge.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


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Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 04:39 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 16:41, 16 Sep 2017.

@dredknight: 64bit editor was added and I can make maps 320x320+UG

I personally consider 320x320+UG 'outside game parameters', I or Hu are already kinda crazy, but some people like that. I think anything between M - XLu is most approriate if no handwork is involved.

Quote:
However by looking at the map it feels very empty as objects are quite apart and repetitive. Adventure map creatures are just single stack and there are no formidable opponents. So the answer is:


The original RMG is a disaster.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 04:51 PM
Edited by Nargott at 16:52, 16 Sep 2017.

Quote:
H55 has no bias towards long games or short games and is intended as platform to scale balance automatically to every type of game.

No, your balance will not be working at final battles at 1-2 monthes very well because of 3.33% stats. I have see strong nerfs of Might heroes, but haven't see any nerf of Magic heroes. And your players don't play at this time, to check it (because of huge guards on your current maps).

Maybe the game if scaled to 3-9 monthes, but not 1-2.
There is no way to adapt the game to any time of playing. You may try but several ranges will not be covered.


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 05:04 PM

Quote:
No, your balance will not be working at final battles at 1-2 monthes very well because of 3.33% stats. I have see strong nerfs of Might heroes, but haven't see any nerf of Magic heroes. And your players don't play at this time, to check it (because of huge guards on your current maps).


This is pure speculation. Guards are modifyable in RMG from extremely weak to extremely strong. On a regular map with scarce resources the mage guilds will not go to level 5. A mapmaker who allows the guild to go up can just as well allow speed up of creature growth. You are just implying map parameters that are not enforced.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


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Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 05:06 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 17:06, 16 Sep 2017.

Also, just like magic, war machines are also powerful early game.
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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 16, 2017 05:06 PM

Nargott said:

No, your balance will not be working at final battles at 1-2 monthes very well because of 3.33% stats. I have see strong nerfs of Might heroes, but haven't see any nerf of Magic heroes. And your players don't play at this time, to check it (because of huge guards on your current maps).

Maybe the game if scaled to 3-9 monthes, but not 1-2.
There is no way to adapt the game to any time of playing. You may try but several ranges will not be covered.



You forget that since ToTe hero melee damage is boosted around double strength for tiers 1-3. It compensates for lack of spell damage.

Also if the heroes will meet early on, it will probably be a small map so both will be prepared. Might will probably get combat perks or Balista
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 05:25 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 17:26, 16 Sep 2017.

@Nargott: To get some perspective on H55 scaling potential here is movie
of a guy fighting a 'simple' random neutral stack for an artifact on 320x320 map:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLGcS2S79WI
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 05:30 PM

dredknight said:
You forget that since ToTe hero melee damage is boosted around double strength for tiers 1-3. It compensates for lack of spell damage.

Also if the heroes will meet early on, it will probably be a small map so both will be prepared. Might will probably get combat perks or Balista

Damage boost againt 1-3 tiers is nothing in PvP because the main target for hero's attack is tier 7.
Ballista easely killed by Destructive Magic, with Quickness of Mind if necessary.
The only chance is Shattering.
But you must check it, because without testing there is no confidence in these arguments.
This is how balance work "on paper".
In WGE I have also some points work "on paper" but understand that checking is necessary, in future.

20 level is real at the first month if you are not cutting experience.
Diamond template is not seems as "small map" or rushing map, but it's real to come at 2-3 weeks.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 05:40 PM

Quote:
Ballista easely killed by Destructive Magic, with Quickness of Mind if necessary.


No, it's not it has significantly more HP in H55.

I'm not claiming that is H55 perfect or that the balance doesn't need further fine tuning, but the theoretical framework is solid.
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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 16, 2017 05:41 PM
Edited by dredknight at 17:42, 16 Sep 2017.

Those points are already checked multiple times. around weeks 2-3 balista health is high and it can only be killed with the cold death perk otherwise hero has to spend at least a couple of turns and mana (which he does not have in abundance at that time).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 05:46 PM

Also on top of that the tent is also much more durable and has stronger resurrection that scales with hero level.
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