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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design
Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted December 10, 2015 10:34 PM

Belisarius said:
What do Barbarians have right now?

They got bloodrage, they got shaman heroes noone has. I really like the new daughters their abilities are really well rounded and lore fitted.

Craig hack tactics was never available only to stronghold even in Vanilla, haven tactics was pretty much the same with heroes gaining only attack and defense, same goes for Sylvan after a couple of levels.

Back then the game was mostly about craig hack tactics anyway. You hit first or you dont survive.
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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 10, 2015 11:21 PM

Quote:
They got bloodrage,


Bloodrage was OP. Now it is not. It was nerfed. So the change that was made is lowering overall Barbarians power.

Quote:
...they got shaman heroes noone has.


Noone has Overlords either. Except Dungeon. Overlord is pretty much strong might hero class, able to be played Crag Hack style. So a race that used to be only magic, now has this new might-play option. Shaman, on the other hand is not a true magic hero class, meaning not like elementalists or warlocks etc. What are the available skills for shamans and how are their level points distributed?

Quote:
I really like the new daughters their abilities are really well rounded and lore fitted.


I like them too. They are excellent. They still do not bring a new style of game-play. One cannot just take a bunch of daughters and clean the area in early game. Like with hydras or vampires, or elf's shooters.

Quote:
Craig hack tactics was never available only to stronghold even in Vanilla, haven tactics was pretty much the same with heroes gaining only attack and defense, same goes for Sylvan after a couple of levels.

Back then the game was mostly about craig hack tactics anyway. You hit first or you dont survive.


Back then I would say a race-choice was also a game-style choice. By choosing a race one was also choosing a game play. But still Barbarians were most powerful Crag Hack style choice considering shaters, level point distribution and everything.
Now, even a race that used to be pointless to be played Crag Hack style, like Dungeon, can be played like that.
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devilfire
devilfire


Adventuring Hero
posted December 11, 2015 09:50 AM

This has been bothering me ever since Role Playing Edition. The races are not playing differently enough. Maybe thats because now every race got all kind of heroes.

Back in the days the heroes were truly might and magic, every class was better at might or magic, but still mediocre on the other role, atleast on theory. For example - Demon Lords were heavily might, but they also had hellfire and the possiblity to proc it so many times because of gating and the high knowledge, Wizards were heavy magic, but due to artifacts their troops could compensate, Warlocks had the most damaging spells, but also high attack stats for their troops (true glasscannons), even Knights had a unique way of dealing magic damage because they were the only class that could get both Cold Steel and Fiery Wrath etc.

I admit that I have always wanted to play a race in a totally different way (magic inferno, might dungeon etc), but the classes of a respective role are playing almost the same. Like Magnomagus said there are not much differences between Warlock, Flamekeeper or Elementalists, this goes for the might heroes too.

Some of the uniqueness of the races are gone, I feel this is affecting mostly Dungeon (because their uniqueness came from the stronger spells and the stats distribution that gave them the feel of a glass cannon, dealing both heavy magic damage and heavy army damage), Stronghold (everyone got their unique shatters, while they are not getting anything in return) and Haven (they were not the most unique race ever even in the original TOTE, but still..)

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 11, 2015 12:46 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 12:48, 11 Dec 2015.

With 3 classes per faction you are bound to lose some differentiation, but I strongly disagree it is anywhere near problematic.

The shatters were hardly relevant to barbarians uniqueness in TOE, because they were too much under powered to even pick.

Far more important are having an entire magic school for themselves and all those bloodrage modifiers. Things they still have.

Quote:
Like Magnomagus said there are not much differences between Warlock, Flamekeeper or Elementalists, this goes for the might heroes too.


This comment was only addressing the balance when they use destructive from early on, in practice those three classes use mostly different combos of magic schools. Elementalists and warlocks can also be played succesfully without destructive, how unique and different is that?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 11, 2015 02:58 PM

Ok necro balance plan:

-revert buff to vampire lords, instead nerf prince to their level (-1A, -1D)

-necromancy raise percentages: 10/15/20
-Base Dark Energy 150 instead of 200
-amplifier +5% and +100 Dark Energy
-grail 10% +250 Dark Energy

-lord of undead: replace effect - skeletons in heroes army gain taxpayer ability for 0.5 gold per skeleton.

Vampirism spell increase by 1% instead of 2% per SP

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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 11, 2015 03:38 PM

Quote:
With 3 classes per faction you are bound to lose some differentiation, but I strongly disagree it is anywhere near problematic.

The shatters were hardly relevant to barbarians uniqueness in TOE, because they were too much under powered to even pick.

Far more important are having an entire magic school for themselves and all those bloodrage modifiers. Things they still have.


The game is far more balanced than it used to be. It is also far more interesting, one of the reasons being "you can play Dungeon Crag Hack style". And all things mentioned on moddb.

Thing is we lost some of the distinctive look-feel of some races. (Especially Barbarians). By balancing the game and making far more game style options (including per faction), Yes it is inevitable to lose some differentiation. But then again it is possible to makeup for this by adding some new features. Like shamans lets say.
Shamans are simply not enough, at present, or not strong enough to compensate.

If: you give Dungeon option to be played Crag Hack style (which is excellent) Then:
Give Barbarians strong Shaman play. Improve shamans to be wordy as much as warlocks are. For example give them +1 on power for every 4 levels instead of 6; Further improve their shaters.

Please do not try to balance the game in the other direction by making every race similar. We'll end up having no distinction between them.
Don't mess up Necromancers. They need to have the "zombie apocalypse threat" included in their game-style. I mean it is obvious that there are solutions for that. Dungeon can Armageddon them for example (as shown with replays from Dredknight). Game is pretty much relaying on things like that. It is what Heroes is all about. Solutions, different types of strategies etc. Some of them need to be overwhelming.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 11, 2015 04:31 PM

I calculated the power rating of a week growth of a fully build necropolis is actually the same as a town from any other faction. This means the bonuses derived from necromancy must be valued mathematically by the investment in skill slots alone.

I should add the % reductions have no influence on the gameplay after month 1 and very little impact before that. DE is the only relevant factor.
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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 11, 2015 05:25 PM

What about Dark Knight tower increasing DE? +300 lets say.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 11, 2015 05:54 PM

dark knight tower?
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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 11, 2015 06:32 PM

Sorry. Death Knight dwelling.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 11, 2015 06:47 PM

That's not possible because there is no script function in 31j to modify DE

But the necro pendant cost discount can (and I think should) be increased to 20%. The necromancy bonus on the other hand can be reduced to 5% or completely removed as it is irrelevant just like lord of undead.
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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 11, 2015 07:16 PM

You mean Amulet of Necromancy? Decreasing cost of DE by 20%?
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 11, 2015 08:05 PM

Yes at 10% it's worth 50-75 DE for a major artifact
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devilfire
devilfire


Adventuring Hero
posted December 11, 2015 08:33 PM
Edited by devilfire at 20:54, 11 Dec 2015.

@Magnomagus I did not ment to offend you if thats how you feel about what I said.

Its not about the balance because its unquestionably more balanced now, its about ideas, concepts, themes etc. Yes shatters were badly implemented in the original TOTE, but the idea was there, while now there is nothing to make them different than say Haven, except blood rage of course.

Haven, Dungeon and Stronghold need something more to feel like they got a niche, something to differentiate them from the crowd. Haven has never been that unique in any of the HOMM games.. training is interesting and only they have it but its not enough, not to mention that only knights can do it, their other classes feel very close related to any other generic caster/balanced class. The only unique thing that Dungeon have is the Elemental chains.

One thing that the original did better is that every race had something that they excel at -> warlocks did a lot higher destruction magic damage, Sylvan had the biggest criticals, Necropolis had the most army, Fortress were the tankiest, Wizards had the most spells etc.

Many of these things apply now too, but the problem is that they are not as strongly accented as before and I`m not talking about balance.

That +1 luck in the Sylvan Avenger branch was exactly the thing that I`m talking about. This small thing is giving the feeling that they are centered around critical just a little bit more than others because they are the only race that actually get luck in their perks.

We need more of that.

Sometimes to have more is not that good, in this case I feel 3 classes per faction is too much because there are not enough things to center tham around to make them different from one another, but .. It can still be done if a certain skill is giving bonus effects to a certain race just like Combat is giving a discount on the training for Knights.

Also some classes have the basic concept right, but the implementation is lacking. For example Gatekeeper, the idea of a gating specialist is good, but in reality he is not gating more troops than Demon Lord or Sorcerer, which make his role more of a concept instead of a fully functional feature. Same goes for Necromancer, he is not raising more troops than Reaver or Death Knight. Can there be done something to make those actually true to their names ?

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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted December 11, 2015 09:05 PM

devilfire said:

Also some classes have the basic concept right, but the implementation is lacking. For example Gatekeeper, the idea of a gating specialist is good, but in reality he is not gating more troops than Demon Lord or Sorcerer, which make his role more of a concept instead of a fully functional feature. Same goes for Necromancer, he is not raising more troops than Reaver or Death Knight. Can there be done something to make those actually true to their names ?



Devilfire, classes are defined by main secondary skill, heroes are defined by specialization.  Combination of both is the uniqueness you that you are talking about.

@Magno, congrats on the Necromancy changes. Sounds very good!

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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted December 11, 2015 10:10 PM

My opinion:
Haven needs better trainers, stronger training skill for knights. Maybe even improvement of Archangels and Seraphs spell points or spell power.
Stronghold needs better shamans, more SPow and stronger shaters for them.
Dungeon I consider best example of job well done with 3 classes (I think it is clear from my previous posts) Overlords, Assassins and Warlocks. Man, the job done there is almost too god to be true. So I think it is a good point to start from there, and compare other races with this successful example.
Necromancers... I will follow magno on this one. Together with improved Amulet and Lord of undead (0.5 coins per skeleton). Although I cannot (yet) see why there is need for nerfing vampires. And I would put a more town-number dependent DE.
Inferno needs better Arch Demons definitely: +1 move, +1 init.
Academy so far good. Changes on Titans seems to be logical. And we are moving in the right direction with them as the best archers (damage dealers from distance) in heroes.
Dwarfs seems to be good.
Sylvan I agree with devilfire needs to have more of a some luck/critical-damage affinity in them.

I am talking about polishing the game. Making it even better. Everything done so far is absolutely fantastic. I have never even joined a forum before. This mod (game version I would say) made me to. And I've played heroes games like for, a well over a decade, never been interested (enough) for doing that.
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Dunadd
Dunadd


Hired Hero
posted December 12, 2015 04:45 AM

Do i need to uninstall RC3 before installing RC4a, or can i just install over it?
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 16, 2015 10:41 PM

Quote:
@Magnomagus I did not ment to offend you if thats how you feel about what I said.


I was not offended.

With regards to haven I don't think it is a bad thing they are standard/default in design. I think this is a good thing because you need a standard to compare all the others to. For me the haven faction always plays an important role in testing new gameplay concepts.
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strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted December 30, 2015 08:35 PM
Edited by strigvir at 20:43, 30 Dec 2015.

Why is there no Avenger skill for druids? I wanted to see High Druid + Expert Destruction + triple ballista combo in action, but alas, vanilla game has a pretty tight requirement for this build to work.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted December 31, 2015 11:05 AM

because of hardcoded bug.
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