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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design
Thread: [MMH5.5] Skill System Design This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 05:54 PM
Edited by Nargott at 18:14, 16 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
@Nargott: To get some perspective on H55 scaling potential here is movie
of a guy fighting a 'simple' random neutral stack for an artifact on 320x320 map:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLGcS2S79WI

This battle seems to be epic, but if you divide all numbers by 10 or 20, nothing principially is changed, except that your destructive magic (if you have it) can't do normal damage.

The battle looks interesting but at technique aspect is easier. There is no overshelming of 140 Dwarves Dragons because your dragons is near to it (50 + stats + skills + magic + AI).

It can not be said that the battle was equal or dangerous because the losses are zero and there are no chances for neutrals to win. Yes, it look dangerous but only at first sight if you don't know which magic and skills and stats have hero.

I don't say that the battle is bad, it is good as entertainment element. Big arena, 7 stacks, epic numbers. Good but not challenge. Any challenge ends when the hero already takes all combo elements, in that case is big army, Puppet Master + Vampirism.

Quote:
with the cold death perk

Exactly with this perk.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 06:20 PM

Quote:
Good but not challenge.


Does not matter, the player can adjust the neutral growth to anything, it can be boosted by 20%, 100%, 2000% anything. There is always a point were you will crumble.

I have had players report they like it at +20% more, I have also had players report they got squashed by the H55 AI and neutrals and if I could please make it easier.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 06:41 PM
Edited by Nargott at 19:02, 16 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
Quote:
Good but not challenge.


Does not matter, the player can adjust the neutral growth to anything, it can be boosted by 20%, 100%, 2000% anything. There is always a point were you will crumble.

I have had players report they like it at +20% more, I have also had players report they got squashed by the H55 AI and neutrals and if I could please make it easier.

In tactical aspect as player I like micro combats where is 1 dragon etc.
Because micro combats have more tactical nuances and because it's not necessary to have ressurrection-type spells to compensate big losses.
Macro combats is something like micro combats but without nuances of toughness and without many good-working things like "cold of death", hero strikes etc.

I think that at any neutral growth the most difficult battles are earlier battles, before getting strong army and top technologies (like Puppet Master or ressurecting spells). The first Dragon Utopy is difficult not because of many dragons here, but because you have small army and/or poor magic/artifacts. But after taking that you have boost your economic enough to buy and upgrade all the creatures, you get top artifacts and etc. The next Dragon Utopy will not be the same difficult as first.

I had proposed expensive top spells, this is a limitation of using top technologies, until your mana becomes "high as sky". Imagine that combat if Puppet Master and Vampirism costs 80 mana, there is some problems to spam it every round, isn't it?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 06:59 PM

Quote:
The first Dragon Utopy is difficult not because of many dragons here, but because you have small army and/or poor magic/artifacts.


True, but the same situation can still be simulated in late game, if the resistance is so overwhelming even all your super artifacts and upgraded creatures don't feel strong enough anymore.

Take for example Katauri game King's Bounty: the Legend in which all resistance is neutral, it is basically like playing a single 320x320 map campaign with resistance constantly scaling up.


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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 07:07 PM
Edited by Nargott at 20:07, 16 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:

True, but the same situation can still be simulated in late game, if the resistance is so overwhelming even all your super artifacts and upgraded creatures don't feel strong enough anymore.


If neutral growth will too high, players will start trying to play faster and to get the most powerful things faster, so you risk losing your long-game perspective for 6+ months.

In my opinions when a player get his top technologies (top spells and units), from a strategic point of view the game is ending. But instead of going and killing an opponent (and starting a new game), the player continues to farm the neutrals, simply because it's nice. And you try to support this nice farming.

But ideally you need something like capitol in Eador where there are 150-200 buildings you will build during all the game. And expensive powerful top spells, of cause, which can't be comfortable played at first months but can be at the later game (if knowledge is high).

I'm oriented into first 1-3 weeks (in WGE) not because like rushing styles, but because the city development is ending at later game. And the most variable of builds is about half from the total number of buildings (like the most variable skills is 6 from 12). So if you find a way to continue town development, it will be interesting motivation to delaying games more than 1 month.

P.S. Sorry, my English is not very well, I had used word "monthes" instead of "months", lol

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 08:07 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 20:11, 16 Sep 2017.

Quote:
In my opinions when a player get his top technologies (top spells and units), from a strategic point of view the game is ending.
Quote:


True, but this often takes 2 towns = 2 guilds, so can take quite a while

Quote:
the player continues to farm the neutrals, simply because it's nice.


If player has adjusted difficulty properly it is not so casual as you think. In H55 player can set all AI allied vs human with one setting, also boost their armies endlessly with cheat settings.

One streamer set difficulty to impossible and keeps sparring with AIs on midsize map for 12 months, I think he is 'drawing dead':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO8nCsC4tuk

Also unrelated: using town conversion will make game harder in H55 not easier and make economic demands very high. AI is very aggressive in converting towns.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 08:26 PM
Edited by Nargott at 20:27, 16 Sep 2017.

@magnomagus:
Have you any PvP gameplay video with full game from the first day to the last?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 17, 2017 02:02 AM

I don't know about one like that, Dredknight had a lot of final battles but they were used to fix balance issues in later versions.
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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 17, 2017 08:08 AM

Sure I already promised to upload some on youtube I just do not have the time.

@Magno, since doing those NCF stuff I got an idea. I will share it as I am not sure if I am not missing something in practice.

Is it possible to create a new magics from already existing ones?

For example if we clone the Frenzy.xdb and point all the flavor items to new places (new texts, new pictures, new effects etc..) but use the same effect we will be able to have both effects of frenzy (as it works now and as it works in the original).

Do you know where the unique IDs are taken for spells? are they encoded in the exe?


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 17, 2017 12:10 PM

Not possible, there is no way to tell the game what it has to do with the new ID, even if it is added to the .exe file
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2017 03:57 PM
Edited by Nargott at 16:31, 03 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
@Nargott: To get some perspective on H55 scaling potential here is movie
of a guy fighting a 'simple' random neutral stack for an artifact on 320x320 map:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLGcS2S79WI

There is statistic for this battle for player's army damage:

(Poison = 2 486 damage)
Archery = 26 538 damage
Attack = 108 131 damage
Retaliation = 26 135 damage

Retaliation / Melee = 26 135 / (108 131 + 26 135) = 19,4%
Retaliation / Overall = 26 135 / (108 131 + 26 135 + 26 538) = 16,25%

So retaliation part of overall melee damage is even less that 25%, equal to ~20%. So your Combat skill with +10% retaliation damage per skill level is near to ~+2% offense per skill level, or near to +1,6% damage, is very weak (weaker than +1 attack even with 2,5% stat).

I had proposed to give extra free level-up for each skill level of Combat, in addition to his poor +10/20/30% retaliation bonus.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 03, 2017 05:00 PM

In hero vs hero battles, not so many creatures die with first hit. I would be more interested in statistics of a hero vs hero battle with a lineup that does not use 2 shooters and 2 creatures have 'no retaliation' ability and also has the numbers actually set to 10,20,30 and not 10,17,25.

I will never add stuff that speeds up leveling, I hate that, I rather prefer to boost the central martial arts perk, because the skill is primarily about hero damage.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2017 05:08 PM
Edited by Nargott at 17:56, 03 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
In hero vs hero battles, not so many creatures die with first hit. I would be more interested in statistics of a hero vs hero battle with a lineup that does not use 2 shooters and 2 creatures have 'no retaliation' ability and also has the numbers actually set to 10,20,30 and not 10,17,25.

I will never add stuff that speeds up leveling, I hate that

No retaliation doesn't affect, because I see only to players' army damage, PvE not EvP (so that neurtals doesn't have no retaliation ability).

In PvP I think that retaliation part will be higher but not much, ~25% instead of 20%. You may check it by yourself.

"not so many creatures die with first hit"
First hit is less important but focus fire is more important factor that make retaliation strike much weaker.

And what about +levelup for RunicKnowledge and Shamanism? You hate it but do it?

I had wrote that problem is not that (Combat+perks) is weak, but the (Combat as skill) is only passing skill, which do almost nothing. My task is to point out this problem, yours is to try to solve it or not try.

EDIT:
Quote:
I rather prefer to boost the central martial arts perk, because the skill is primarily about hero damage.

It doesn't change nothing, because skill (as skill) is about retaliation strike, only his perks (70% of them) are about hero damage. But when retaliation strike is weak, the main benefit of (Combat+perks) is hero damage, where Combat is passing skill only.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 03, 2017 05:54 PM

Quote:
And what about +levelup for RunicKnowledge and Shamanism? You hate it but do it?


hardcoded leftovers

Quote:
I had wrote that problem is not that (Combat+perks) is weak


Doesn't matter, a strong central perk that affects all other perks can make up for poor base skill, situation is the same with empowered spells.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2017 05:59 PM
Edited by Nargott at 18:04, 03 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
Doesn't matter, a strong central perk that affects all other perks can make up for poor base skill, situation is the same with empowered spells.

Not poor, poor is +5% offense for example. But very poor. So you don't want to solve this problem (that I call as "Passing skill only": you get level-up, upper Combat, get almost nothing, then get next level-up, powerful perk from Combat, which compensate your "nothing" at previous level-up).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 03, 2017 06:02 PM

It is easily worth 5% offense, I have tested this already.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2017 06:07 PM
Edited by Nargott at 18:17, 03 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
It is easily worth 5% offense, I have tested this already.

It is impossible to believe, maybe bonuses were very small that differ was small and you didn't notice it at combat result?
Can I see at this test by stream?
Because even theoretical retaliation strike will always less then direct offence strike, but offence 5% bonus is (retaliation + direct offence) i.e. 2 times higher if all factors (first hit, focus fire, no retaliation) are zero.
The only factors for "retaliation strike" to be bigger than direct strike is "stand your ground" defense and/or preparation defense.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 03, 2017 07:15 PM

Ok, you are right, I overlooked in first test one hero had preparation.

but with haven I can get it to around 30%, i also expect fortress to be rather good at it.

I will consider 20,30,40 but I'm afraid if preparation gets overpowered.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2017 07:23 PM
Edited by Nargott at 19:42, 03 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
Ok, you are right, I overlooked in first test one hero had preparation.

but with haven I can get it to around 30%, i also expect fortress to be rather good at it.

I will consider 20,30,40 but I'm afraid if preparation gets overpowered.


Preparation is the only part situation with using Combat.
I think that it's better to nerf Preparation, not Combat.
You may also try add +1/+2/+3 to attack and defense and cancel that bonuses if have preparation (instead of -2 to attack).

So the problem of 20/30/40 is that 20% is ok (poor like 5% offence but ok), but next steps are the same weak (+10%).

Better is adding extra levels, but you hate it. Better because doesn't influence very much PvP in later game.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2017 10:11 PM

@magno, can you make Combat skill increase hero ATB value when/if the hero uses direct attack? Sort of the Might equivalent of Sorcery... If this is possible it would be a great fit for what the skill is about in MMH5.5... The only way to do this is through scripts I believe...

On top of that, I suggest (if possible) to increase the Hero level on direct attack calculation for each level of Combat skill, like +3, +6, +9.

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