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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted November 09, 2016 08:52 PM |
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PandaTar said:
He seems to be effective and capable of raising money. Let's see if he can do that for the populace. Too soon to judge, I reckon. ^^
he's gone bankrupt at least three times
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 09, 2016 09:00 PM |
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Neraus said:
artu said:
But what kind of 60+ year old man would have a universe in which his desires are summed up as "when you're famous, they'll let you do anything."
The kind that is president of Italy.
Wait, am I insulting my country?
At least Berlusconi didnt do Reality TV! Wait, he owned the media which broadcasted it. There's no way out!
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 09, 2016 09:02 PM |
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@artu
First I have to put things in perspectives. A vote for an election is a contest between 2 personalities and their concepts, not the expression of our total adherence to one of them. Let me give an example.
We have here a man with a terrible wound in his arm. Then you have two doctors, one says "lets apply a burning knife on the wound and cauterize it, but it will provoke big pain" then the other says "let it as it is, in several months your arm will detach itself and you will feel nothing, is painless".
Then you choose the first option then someone argues "how can you support applying a burning knife on a open wound, this is inhumane". See my point?
Now, every of us observes the world issues based on his very close perceptions. For myself, I consider a lot of USA problems to be close or similar to the ones we have in France and Europe in general. And the one which shocks me the most is that those who do politics these days - the political establishment, the media, the academy, the celebs - are so contemptuous of ordinary people, so hateful of the herd, so convinced that the mass of society cannot be trusted to make political decisions. Remember Hillary calling Trump supporters as deplorable?
Well, and now those ordinary people have given their response to such top-down sneering and prejudice.
This nasty, reactionary turn against democracy by so many of the well-educated mentioned above explains the victory of Trump, which neatly doubles up as a slap in the face of the establishment, and confirms why democracy is more important today than it has ever been. Because it really would be folly to let an elite that so little understands ordinary people, and in fact loathes them, to run society unilaterally. Now that would be dangerous, more dangerous than Trump, imo.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted November 09, 2016 09:14 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
PandaTar said:
He seems to be effective and capable of raising money. Let's see if he can do that for the populace. Too soon to judge, I reckon. ^^
he's gone bankrupt at least three times
Hope he's learned his lesson. 
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted November 09, 2016 09:23 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
PandaTar said:
He seems to be effective and capable of raising money. Let's see if he can do that for the populace. Too soon to judge, I reckon. ^^
he's gone bankrupt at least three times
If he has gone bankrupt three times, that means he has managed to go from 0 to 100 3 times. It is a matter on how you look at it. Getting back on the track from a bankruptcy is difficult, and he has managed to do so over and over like a jojo.
At least give the man some credit where credit is do.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 09, 2016 09:52 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:05, 09 Nov 2016.
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@Sal
I still see democracy as a regime which will resolve its handicaps faster than any other regime humanity could came up with until now. We seem to agree on that part. But any regime will have its flaws and we are in a transmission age. There are "fresh" communication technologies where populism can be exploited in ways that was not possible before. (You seem to complain so much about related issues when music is the subject, which is your proffession.) Democracy hasnt been around for 10 years, but up until very recently, most people who wanted to achieve things were living under the influence of social norms where it was considered sensible to educate yourself about achieving them. Suddenly, it's the prophecy of Andy Warhol: The 15 minutes legacy. This also affects politics, people like Trump, Erdogan, (and whoever is in charge of Poland  ) have an impact that they could never have before. Because every medium has its baby-steps stage. What I'm talking about is not looking down on people with no education, it's about how they position themselves compared to how they used to position themselves. If you tell me something about two performers doing Bethooven, I will care, if Corribus corrects me about a detail about chemistry, I'll gladly learn. Trump does not relate to such a scope, he is the populist which calls out "your shortcomings are common sense."
This may seem disconnected at first, but capitalism evolved into a stage that money attracting money resulted in a virtual market in which a very selected minority can manipulate almost anything including politics, information, laws, social norms and that "free" market itself. It's inevitable that this creates a reaction among masses. It should. But such reactions are usually... well, emotionally reactionary. Think how fascism got so popular in the beginnig of 20th Century, it was the same crowds who were trying to protect themselves from what they could not define, so they just grabbed on overhyped security and identity policies. I dont think things are as desperate, I dont think we are at the break of WW 3 or nuclear holocaust. But Trump or Le Pen (or Erdogan) is really not something to be proud of.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 09, 2016 09:59 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 22:08, 09 Nov 2016.
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markkur said:
Galaad said:
I would like to thank the American folks, because while Trump is what he is, Clinton was too much of a threat for the rest of the world, maybe we can avoid WWIII now.
Fingers crossed for the situation in the Middle East to slowly get better.
Best statement yet. Cheers Sir Galaad
I voted for Trump but this there is no easy road ahead. What the man will face that's needs serious change is huge.
The U.S. is in very bad shape (in about everyway imaginable) and I hope the entire Government will weed out the Greed-Mongers and get back to serving this nation. But only time will tell. At least the Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama machine has now officially ended.
Cheers Markkur and thanks for seeing clear. Trump likes to lie but at least there is a small ray of hope now. I'm waiting for around February and see how things goes from there.
artu said:
Trump or Le Pen (or Erdogan) is really not something to be proud of.
Of course but when these come as the lesser evils it just screams how bad things are, imo.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 09, 2016 10:06 PM |
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@artu, and you practice the exact shortcuts you complain about, by placing Trump, Le Pen and Erdogan in same pattern -after firstly evoking the fascism in the 30'. That is not highly biased?
Personally I am very proud of Le Pen (both daughter and father) and I will have the upper argument to any objective dialogue about, because I know my homework and not falling for shortcuts. Nowadays, the political dialog is hijacked; terms as xenophobia, racism and populism are wrongly used in order to prevent any critical stance on the long established system - exactly like Islamophobia to prevent any critic of Islam. For example, the people asking for deporting back the illegals are labeled as racists and xenophobes, which means you consider the constitution to be racist and xenophobic and advocate ignoring and stump your own country laws.
Marine le Pen english translated interview, this woman is at light years from both Erdogan and Trump. Maybe once you watch it we can talk and avoid shortcuts. 
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Era II mods and utilities
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 09, 2016 10:54 PM |
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Idk where people get this notion that every one of their wishes will get granted by the orange genie, if anything he's an eefreet ready to set their world on fire.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 09, 2016 11:42 PM |
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@Sal
I should have known you were going to defend her
I've read some of her interviews before and now, I've watched this one as well. True, she's no Trump but then, no French politician can be as blunt and ignorant as an American politician anyway. What one's audince will percieve as frank, the other will percieve as rude. However, when it comes down to it, she is not light years away either. When she's trying to defend the words of her niece for example, she is in a position to defend secularity (laicite, to be more precise, which is the term we also use and which is not exactly the same with secularity) but also as a conservative politician, she cant offend religious voter base. So, she says laicite is a Christian tradition. While it is true that secular law is much more likely to be able to evolve under (but still despite) Christianity if you specifically compare it to Islam, it is not a direct result of Christian theology and that theology did not result in a secular state for many centuries until much different conditions caused it. And the Church fought it desperately in the beginning. She seems educated enough to know this but she cant pronounce it on TV, which smells politics to me and which makes me think all that "I'm a believer in my opinions, not a strategist" talk seem like a show. But let's say life is not perfect and sometimes you have to be a little bit of a strategist even if you are sincere in your opinions, especially if you are in politics. Let that one slide. Is her arguments so different from Trump in the sense that when it comes to defending taking a loan from a Russian Bank, it's all how "why should it matter, borrowing money is money, who cares what nation from" and then, when it comes to immigration policy it's all about "soverenignty, soverenignty." I mean, if traveling of money is global all the way without any restriction but traveling of people is strictly limited, somewhere along the line, somebody will be exploiting such a dilemma and guess from which countries the lucky ones will be? The ones who control the money flow. This is regularly brought up when it comes to neo-liberal economy issues that first world country nationalists conveniently ignore and she does exactly that.
My full support on the Burka issue though. Burka has nothing to do with "a woman's freedom to dress as she wants" and maybe you have to come from a Muslim country to fully realize why it is not so.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 09, 2016 11:54 PM |
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As I said, voting for someone doesn't mean that you necessarily support that leader at one hundred percent, but that you think it will make a difference with what the others propose. Now, about sovereignty, such interviews seeking for the buzz will not go deeper into the subject. Personally, I believe that sovereignty, in this context, represents two principal axes necessary to a good backbone: control of own borders and control over own laws. In Europe we have lost them both.
I mean, let's be serious, you call controlled immigration "people restriction of movement". But are you aware that for entering USA, for example, means spending at least 2 hours at control checks and other security issues? However no one finds it "movement restricting". While an Algerian can walk without any stop or being asked anything from Alger to the Louvre (where he will be expelled only if no ticket ), then up to Stockholm then back to Lisbon. This is insane and irresponsible.
Freedom can't be effective without a minimum of security concerns.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 10, 2016 12:01 AM |
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From two bad candinates they pick the "better" one, imo. Even before elections, I tough Trump where annoying, offensive and racist, that has not changed but I don't consider him anymore just dumb the trump internet meme guy. I deffinetly don't agree all his views but combared to Hillary, he would have gotten my vote. The line what Markkur said about: Trump preventing the ww3 is far fetched for me but certainly it has positive effect on their relationship with Russia and midle-east countries. Europe would have wanted Hillary as a President but who cares what we think.
Others have said it already. It does not change "that" much who is the president. It's more political display and frankly if not talking about making a wall in mexico, Trump has charisma. The American people can look up to him as an icon. Combare him to Putin, now you can't say Putin is very nice guy but little bit weak leader. Trump is neither perfect but he suits the role. Now, you can't get anymore embarassing that President Bush was, well in some level Trump has exceed him, but the "idiot mark" was quite huge in GBjr. Trump has said lot of things that makes you wonder but mainly they are: offensive, rude and out of place but he has not made himself look as totally imbecile as his behaviour suggest, his just a prick. How many of you have worked under that kinda boss? I have. I have also pondered my bosses intelligence but in end of the day, I would not want to do their job. (What some of them can even be good at).
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2016 08:10 AM |
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Actually Europe would not want Hillary for a president. There is a very small hawkish "elite", most of it on US salaries, which keeps chanting some NATO mantras about the Russian monster coming to devour Europe again (just like... actually when before?) and how everyone around the Russian borders should arm to the teeth and allow the deployment of foreign troops for "protection". The average European, especially the older generations who remember the post-war years and maybe the war itself, would never support another large-scale conflict on the continent, nor the policies which make it more likely to begin. Of the two candidates Hillary was clearly more hell-bent on depicting Russia as the enemy which needs to be put on a leash - something impossible for at least a decade now - so in this regard she was far less acceptable.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 10, 2016 11:30 AM |
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Yes, that's the general view that Trump + Putin is better match than with Hillary and it's safe to say Putin would not have respected Hillary as an president, infact Putin said: He would respect Trump as an president.
This is just random talk of common people but many have said that Russia could now invade Finland and big ol' USA would do nothing as they are so good friends now. Trump said that he would do nothing if Russia would take Finland or Estonia. But, in reality no other president of USA would do any different, he just says it aloud. It's NATO's business but of course we are not in it, because that would anger the mother Russia and we don't want that.. I'm not warmonger or any fanatic about the subject but people are talking but mostly horse poop like always.
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Ereinion156
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 10, 2016 12:41 PM |
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I actually can't say who of both candidates would have made the worse president. But now Trump is president. So, the world will have to deal with him.
I can't exactly blame the Americans for this outcome, because there were only these two candidates in the end. And both, in my opinion, were bad choices. In my opinion the whole US-election-system is faulty and actually the problem here. All votable candidates were long since eliminated before this election even started. I mean: Why are there only two parties and thus only two candidates? Why aren't there more choices? And why can't the people just elect the president directly?
Well, it's not my job to understand this. And I can't change anything about this system and furthermore I doubt that anything will be changed about it soon. So, I will just accept it for now.
@Salamandre: I have to totally disagree with you here. I think it's a great achievement of the EU that every citizen may travel throughout Europe without being stopped at every border. Do you want to build walls along every border? To completely lose the contact to all the neighboring states? This will only profit all the nationalist that can draw upon the unknowing about other cultures of their fellow citizens and thus infuse hatred for the unknown into them.
In my opinion the EU, although it lost some of it's right principles, is a brilliant construct that is not only guaranteeing peace in Europe, but also shows us to respect humans from other countries and should thus especially in it's now weakened state only be strengthened.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 10, 2016 01:03 PM |
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One is not nationalist because he wants to know and dully note who enters in HIS country. Wonder how we lived until 10 years ago, we had secured borders, then far right was at 5%. Now borders are cheese-like and far right is at 40%.
Yet people still don't get it.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 10, 2016 01:53 PM |
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Salamandre said:
One is not nationalist because he wants to know and dully note who enters in HIS country. Wonder how we lived until 10 years ago, we had secured borders, then far right was at 5%. Now borders are cheese-like and far right is at 40%.
Yet people still don't get it.
I doubt some want to get what you mean.
What has been happening in Europe and the U.S. is NOT anything close to traditional-Immigration practices of the 20th Century. This horrible version should be called Implantation, Embedding or better yet; the Elite's Planned Worker Manipulation Program." Assimilation and Language is not even a part of the millions of lives that have been shuffled, affecting millions of other lives, like playing cards with buzzwords like "Open-Borders" and "Crisis".
Ftr, I found out last year NAFTA had brought to the U,S, a quota of Mexican-immigrants that had to be met by "Agreement". You see this is NOT difficult to understand. Think about that! Free-trade is not only goods or services but now it is PEOPLE. Who care about their "Lifestyles", their "Preferences" and on and on ring the Left's mantra's they care soo much about within the smokescreens of Self and Safe-Spaces.
Millions of Mexicans lived in old traditional rural life and that meant they had many "Common-lands". (shared community land - now in the past) Corporations have taken most of those lands now and everyone was forced to flee to the city and "try to learn how to survive...in an instant" or "flee to the promised land where money drips from trees". There is ZERO compassion for any nation in want has been happening around the globe. No respect for People, Country, Civilization...nothing and no excuses either.
However, these are hard facts and I suspect some do not want to face what is going on and would rather "feel good" based on illusionary concepts that are NOT being managed in any reasonable, or compassionate manner.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 10, 2016 02:13 PM |
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I'm not going to comment on this fear-driven nationalist bullcrap of people who escaped their own iron curtain but are intent on erecting a new one - instead, what I don't get is how people can vote a person to take responsibility for a whole nation who has quite obviously only ONE interest, and that's the well-being of Donald Trump.
It has a ring of "natural selection" to it - I mean, how stupid can a country be when the overwhelming majority despise 2 of the 4 candidates, but STILL vote for one of them, because the other 2 "won't make it anyway"?
I mean, Democracy does DEFINITELY not mean, "no matter how many parties and candidates there are for an election, the decision will eternally be only between the two that came first".
Way to go.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted November 10, 2016 02:21 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I'm not going to comment on this fear-driven nationalist bullcrap of people who escaped their own iron curtain but are intent on erecting a new one - instead, what I don't get is how people can vote a person to take responsibility for a whole nation who has quite obviously only ONE interest, and that's the well-being of Donald Trump.
Do you believe Clinton cared about anything else other than her own legacy? Everything she has done was to further her career.
JollyJoker said:
It has a ring of "natural selection" to it - I mean, how stupid can a country be when the overwhelming majority despise 2 of the 4 candidates, but STILL vote for one of them, because the other 2 "won't make it anyway"?
I mean, Democracy does DEFINITELY not mean, "no matter how many parties and candidates there are for an election, the decision will eternally be only between the two that came first".
The two-party system has spent a lot of time and money convincing Americans any alternative simply isn't viable.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Trogdor
Legendary Hero
Words in a custom title
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posted November 10, 2016 02:37 PM |
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Homer171 said:
From two bad candinates they pick the "better" one, imo.
Actually they picked the worse candidate, not that I'm a fan of Hillary but the Trump administration would be more dangerous to America as a whole.
Quote:
Trump preventing the ww3 is far fetched for me but certainly it has positive effect on their relationship with Russia and midle-east countries.
Only with Russia and Syria, the rest of the middle east would still get blown to smithereens, except that America is the opponent, not the comrade-in-arms.
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"Through the power of the dollar you can communicate with the dead." - Artu
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