|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
posted November 11, 2016 11:37 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 23:38, 11 Nov 2016.
|
Far-right is quite a vague term these days, at least in Europe. It can mean many things, while I don't directly categorize you as a person who defends the far-right, (that was not what I said), you do sympathize with politicians that political analysts position in the far-right. (Father Le Pen for example, which you say you are proud of, is certainly far-right if there ever was one.)
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 11, 2016 11:49 PM |
|
|
No, he isn't. I know is so easy for some to put political opponents the-espresso-way in the "bad guys box" but when you look closely, all is only smoke, no substance.
Listen to what I am saying: all, all, ALL the points Le Pen had in this program from the last 40 years to present day, are now in the program of the other parties. Borders, immigration, religious secularism and need of deep reconstruction of the European union. The other points are purely economical, so they don't count as defining an ideology.
Except one, the national preference when applying for a job. Which is already practiced in Canada and some other countries, so is not like being an unique demand, nor a far right issue.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 12:16 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 00:17, 12 Nov 2016.
|
Le Pen founded the Front National as a coalition of extreme right wing groups, among people who made up the leadership team were men like the late convicted war criminal Pierre Bousquet, who edited the FN magazine Militant, Francois Brigneau, editor of FN daily Present, who was a member of the Vichy militia during World War 2, and Waffen SS member Jean Castrillo, the former editor of Militant
Le Pen’s most egregious recent’ comment, evoking widespread protest from parties across the political spectrum and from human rights and Jewish organizations, was that "the races are not equal’ It was a comment that was repeated by the newly elected Mayor of Vitrolles, Mine Mégret, and seems to be a staple of the FN ideology. Both Le Pen and Mme Mégret elaborated on the statement by noting that, after all, different races have different strengths. Thus, both said, Blacks are better at sports.
Source
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 12:27 AM |
|
|
Then Vichy regime was what?
Socialist.
What this mean? that politics should be considered and analyzed in the historical context. As slavery. As women rights. As anything.
artu said:
Thus, both said, Blacks are better at sports.
Well, it looks to me as a compliment to the black race.
And btw if we look at statistics, it may even be true, but I don't feel offended. 
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 12:33 AM |
|
Edited by Galaad at 00:37, 12 Nov 2016.
|
This isn't France thread, but stating Jean-Marie Le Pen isn't far-right is a bit far-fetched.
Quote:
Well, it looks to me as a compliment to the black race.
Above mentioned quote is clearly open to interpretation.
____________
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 12:37 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 00:48, 12 Nov 2016.
|
The Vichy regime was a puppet regime controlled by the Nazis as far as I know and even if you say that has to be evaluated under historical context, if you claim a politician claiming "races are not equal" in the 1990's isnt far-right to you, I wonder what is.
"Blacks are better at sports" when said by such politicians usually hint that "and we are better at intelligence," sports are the "consolation prize" which btw is scientifically utter non-sense. Blacks are better at sports in countries with a history of slavery because of centuries of artificial breeding based on their physical capabilities. It's not a racial trait. Biologically speaking, humans do not even consist of different races with different merits, there are genetic variations spread around a spectrum but no monoblock racial groups. You may as well have African genes.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 01:14 AM |
|
|
I think is not possible to debate when you come with such thin arguments and will repeat them again and again. First, race is still a word present in the dictionary and at the time he told it, the race concept was fully valid. The fact that he was not judged or condemned about shows he was within the law boundaries. Which are extremely THIN anyway, when it comes to racism. It was nothing but a rhetorical pun.
Then you should know how things go, when one has as objective to prove another is far-right and bad guy. As the guy with real nazis ancestors in this forum, which translate my "borders control" as soviet "iron curtain" (few pages before). Today politics lost any credentials because their main concern is to avoid shocking, mainly because everybody became a real pussy about little words, while not giving a damn about the full genocides or injustices happening thousands miles away. Therefore they will fashion some full body armor which will filter their thoughts 35 times before allowing the tongue to materialize it.
Guys as Trump, Le Pen, Farage and Putin do not belong to this pattern. They talk cash, they don't have this inferiority complex. Sometimes it can shock, sometimes it can hurt, but also sometimes it can also bless the ones concerned because it hits right on spot, which others obviously lost this skill. I prefer from far this category, because it lets me apprehend the true nature of a leader, so I can decide if I want to follow or dismiss his leadership.
While with the others, as Clinton, Hollande, Merkel & co, I only hear an arrogant and contemptuous discourse, a constant attempt to despise real life conflicts, to prove their "humanism" and "generosity". While we all know that the one who is penalized is the people, not this elite which uses 15 locks on their fortresses and have not even the slightest idea how much costs a piece of bread.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 01:33 AM |
|
|
Yes, Sal. The guy expelled by his own daughter from the party, who openly says "races are not equal" is not far-right, he's just your problem solver without any complexes. Meanwhile, you feeling cornered to defend the undefendable, so taking cheap shots at my imaginary Nazi ancestors or whatever non-sense about the arrogance of Hollande is all because you are for the people against the elites. Because, the immigrants from post-colonial Algeria aren't the actual poor! And it's not about Europe's distaste about "the real poor" entering in their eye-zone.
The overzealous political corectness of the French leftists may be disturbing at times but I'm sure it's much better than this two-faced demagogy that you're miserably trying to pull.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 01:42 AM |
|
|
|
Uh, is not you who were targeted about nazis ancestors. From what I recall, you are Turkish.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 01:51 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 02:12, 12 Nov 2016.
|
Well, since JJ hasnt been actively debating with you recently, I thought you were making a world play referring to the recent discussion about the Armenian Genocide in the other thread. Sorry, for the misunderstanding then. It was a lapse of seconds and got me a little pissed. But does it really matter? I mean, do you really believe JJ objects to what he objects to, because he's German? Or isn't it possible that all those people who object to people like Le Pen don't live in golden castles and have some genuine disagreement with his philosophy?
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 01:56 AM |
|
|
artu said:
whatever non-sense about the arrogance of Hollande
Nah he's right here, Hollande is the worst president France ever had, to pretend to stay on topic did you know he only wrote a congratulations letter for Clinton?
____________
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 02:05 AM |
|
|
Well, the non-sense objection was about the causality, Hollande may be a bad president and arrogant indeed but if the subject is Le Pen being far-right or not, what has one got to do with the other.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 02:11 AM |
|
|
Holland is at 4% approval as today.
Look artu, is clear that those are core disagreements, and the only way to move ahead is through vote, so lets stop.
It makes no sense for me to defend such position, when I know you guys consider there are no races, no countries, no borders, no nationalities, no identities, everybody is a clone of everybody and every spot we walk on is identical to any another spot. For me, the problems we will face come from this superficial perspective, because it doesn't hatch so much from an humanist need or a seek for universal equality, but more from a marketing and capitalist perspective, as more freely the money move along, more rich the ones controlling it they become.
As for now, I see a majority of people rejecting this drift, so lets trust the ballots.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 02:26 AM |
|
|
As of now and for quite some time ahead, there are countries and different cultures (which can interact of course). An instant transmission to a borderless world is not only impossible but even undesirable. But races in the sense you use really dont exist, this is not superficial, it's plain scientific. The alternative to the superficial approach which ignores certain issues that especially emerge from the difference of the devolopment levels of these countries and the immigration between them is not necesarilly shifting to the other extreme and trying to normalize a politician walking around saying "races are not equal" though.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 02:30 PM |
|
|
Look, you did a 10 seconds google search, came up with a chunk of a phrase as we find all over, which had a context, was not a public declaration nor a part of a political speech but a speculation and a form of variation following a million of provocative questions, as he faces every time. There is a difference between a leader in the middle of a political meeting which affirms "there are inequalities among races" and the same leader, in a TV show, where he has to face a multiple "shot at" and when he may indeed slip on the political correctness.
People want buzz, not substance. They want to case other people in closed boxes, so they don't have to meditate on their sayings, but just classify them and move along.
He is a man of another time, where people talked cash and had a personal opinion and stick to it, not just mingle to the mass to please it and follow the political wind direction like today. He didn't bother about little and petty words and had a strong character. Like De Gaulle when, years ago, he said french people is of white race, of Greek and Latin culture and of Christian religion. De Gaulle, the greatest french leader of our century, you would dismiss him in seconds because this phrase and this shows why this approach is so superficial and dogmatic.
What is important is what those guys did or proposed as laws or reforms, in order to create race inequalities and discrimination. The algerian law from 2006, punishing the individual which advertise another religion than Islam with 5 years of prison, is such racist fact. The Iranian laws which say that homosexuality is a deadly sin and act accordingly, are such racial facts. And so on. We don't have such things in France, nothing even close to that is proposed, in any political formation. Not in the past, nor present.
Then go in Israel and claim race doesn't exist. They will teach you reality.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 03:10 PM |
|
|
This is not the first time I hear of Le Pen, Sal. Yes, I did a Google search to be able to link you something with a source but there had been many articles about him here since the time when he got some significant amount of votes in the first tour of an election and then hundreds of French citizens marched the streets protesting (I wonder why!) and he got eleminated in the second tour. Now, the foundation of his party includes far-right people, he, in a political position, claims races are not equal and he does it in the 1990's, his daughter feels the need to expell him from the party he co-founded because of some of the statements he make and you claim he is not far-right because in a country like France, he doesnt suggest to have laws as backward as Iran. You talk about context and then you take a country such as France and try to evaluate what would correspond to far-right within its political climate by comparing it with Iran. By that logic, we can also say the Soviets was a very liberal country because they didnt apply the laws of Cengiz Khan.
Just because you are frank (pun intended) about something doesn't necessarily mean you are correct about it or you're virtous. Bigots also never change their mind and don't step back from their claims, actually, such a characteristic is part of what defines to be a bigot and depending on what you are consistent about, consistency can be a terrible thing. Look at your examples, will we say Iranians "talk cash" and they dont change their mind about homosexuality just because some politically correct liberals want them to, they've been hanging them for centuries and they stick to their beliefs, how swell!
Le Pen, within the context of the political spectrum of France, is far-right. You can say even the far-right can have arguments that touch a valid issue and it would be wrong to dismiss those arguments completely just because of the stigma. That would be another discussion. But the stigma is not there only because "people want buzz." Both Europe and nationalism in general have a very tragic historical record, and although it has been starting to get forgotten by younger generations, tickling such political bellys with identity or security issues can lead to a very anti-liberal (in the traditional sense of the word) climate.
De Gaulle may have his flaws or anachronisms like anyone of us but when I hear his name, the first thing that crosses my mind is his reply to his advisors when they told him to persecute Jean Paul Sartre because of his criticism on the Algerian war. He said "Jean Paul Sartre is France." Le Pen, is certainly no man of such scope.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 12, 2016 10:17 PM |
|
|
lol artu all you do is chewing the same tiny arguments about trivial details, "Ha, trump said he would grab women by the pussy, who would elect such man", or "Ha, Pen said races are not equal in the 90, he is far-right and if you don't say so you're a bigot".
(and btw he never said "races are not equal", this is lying, exactly like those accusing Trump of saying "women should be punished for aborting". The correct phrase is "there are inequalities between races" and the correct Trump quote is "there should be a form of punishment", which is a galaxy away, if we consider the context and what we can put between.)
All that you know about french politics is what is available to you online, and in english. Personally I can not imagine to have the arrogance of pretending a solid and clear view on the Turkish politics, after 10 minutes passed online to browse first results, which are always related to buzz and sensational. I watched and listened to hundreds hours of debates, between all political sides, I know by heart now who is who, who is hiding who, and most of it, who is always lying.
Should be leaders choice standards based on how polite, sociable and well-mannered they are? I don't care about those aspects, what I want is a strong and dynamic personality which can blow and step over corpses if need (metaphorically of course, I see you coming!), if that is what his country and citizens interest are.
We are all prey of saying enormities sometimes, this does not necessary reflect our deepest reasoning nor reflects our personality, especially for those who are constantly under the fire of the public medias. And how to know that? Simple, you check their acts. Someone who talks snow once but nothing in his acts show a continuity between a bad joke and facts is clearly not guilty for me. Is there any proposal based on race, color or religion in LP program? Not a single one. End of discussion.
And no, far-right is not a vague definition. Check a dictionary, a physical one, not online crap which will daily change following the dogmas weather. Far-right always was a movement which denies liberalism and Marxism, while they consider the use of violence as legitimate and asking for a strong regime. A far-right regime always ignores both people's voice and political opponents structures.
The inquisition used to accuse people of witchery, so they could eliminate them without too much hassle. We are still in that imaginary area, I see.
PS: sorry folks for the off top, but there are so many similarities between Europe and US elections. I promise, I am done and will leave to smart artu the last word.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted November 13, 2016 12:27 AM |
|
|
1- Actually, I said the opposite about Trump's talking style, I said that people focused on the wrong thing, men talk like that all the time and that was no big deal, but it was the shallowness that gave me a clue about his character. And what I exactly said about bigotry was that if you are going to consider "sticking to your opinions no matter what" an unconditional virtue (because you presented an argument clearly heading that direction), then bigots would be on top of that hill and that it also matters what those opinions actually are. I get that you emphatize with Don Quixotes marching their horses into the the wheels of political correctness but some of the things that are considered politically correct happen to be also actually correct. If you're going to call an argument tiny it would be a good idea to accurately frame it.
2- Political terminology is something very elastic, not only through changing times but also from place to place. Liberal means something else in Europe and America, fascist, if you look it up "in the dictionary" used to define a very specific movement in Italy, but today its meaning enhanced, if you ask what a leftist is, you'll get tons of different answers depending on the country and period, etc etc. So, to claim that it is a requirment that a movement should openly support physical violence to be considered far-right, just because (and if) it is some very limited definition in one of the dictionaries you can find, is beyond absurd. Even if you play the "local" card, it is not just me who positions Le Pen in the far-right, it is the frigging French people, even Galaad here said it would be stretching things too far not to call him that. And through the miracle of translation, I can have a pretty concrete idea about his not so sophisticated statements myself.
3- While you talk on and on about how "central and neutral" your position in reality is, and how the public who happens to be brainwashed everytime they disagree with your opinions that far-right isnt actually far right, unfortunately, you are almost the only person who happen to hang on to that impression of neutrality. Most, people find your position very conservative when it comes to politics and especially immigration issues. It is almost as if you're obsessed, just track back any political debate in here that you participate in, and you will notice that every time you find a way to make it about immigration in rant mode. This reminds of an article I read (if I'm not mistaken it was by Toynbee) about the Zealots (which is also the etymological root of the word zealous and of course, overzealous), he explained that the reason the Zealot priests were so passionate about their faith was, they were historically not considered authentic group members, so they always had to prove more than the others, that they truly belong. We have a similar situation in the Black Sea region here, the people from that region are, in average, more nationalist than others because they are not Turkish by ancestory. So while I'm sure you watched all those debates, I hardly imagine you were impartial while doing that because you are very, very, very strongly opinionated about these things to say the least. And you become more reactionary and conservative each passing year. Back in old times, it was something we joke about (remember blizz's map) but you now shift into a state that you accuse anyone who disagree with that very conservative position of yours into being clueless or brainwashed by the media. I evaluate Le Pen as far-right, so does your French fellow Galaad and judging from the articles he shares, he is quite conscious and educated about political affairs. This is not because the liberals brainwashed us or anything, I have never dedicated myself to a political movement liberal or leftist or conservative, I agreed with some here and some there. I'm not the one who's on a buzz here.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 13, 2016 01:20 AM |
|
|
artu said:
And you become more reactionary and conservative each passing year.
Maybe that it has to do with the fact that here where I live, each year passing things go worse, we had about 300 victims of Islamic terrorism in the last year, people feel they are not safe anywhere, you can be hurt in any place, like a concert, a newspaper office, when walking by and so on. Then the police is being now attacked with weapons, Molotov cocktails, they are burned alive in their cars when trying to enter any of the hundred of neighborhoods which are under Islamic laws and you won't see a single woman alone after 18 PM. Are you sure you know the actuality in Europe?
And while all this happening, we still worship this immigration without end, and now some millions more are waiting to come in, but not a single smart plan on how to solve it sooner or later. While every day one farmer, the guys who feed us, suicides because he can't pay his bills and thousands of french families are crawling in misery, while half of students got their scholar ship terminated without warning and they have to switch between university and a job at MCDo; but of course, opening our arms to millions of cowards without honor, who choose to desert and run away while french soldiers fight and die in their place is more important, makes us feel good people.
Of course, when one thinks there are no countries, no borders but a big and gray world, there is no reason to defend the place where you're born and raised, just move away when threatened, who cares.
No, is not me who changes, is the world which became crazy and threw away all important values, as honor and trust. No, there is no generosity when you help the one miles away but turn of your eyes when your neighbor is suffering. This is being bigot.
artu said:
it is the frigging French people, even Galaad
We have two french people here, me and him. Me is me alone, but him is him + the French frigging people?
If you addition all parties defending identity and sovereignty, you get more than 50% of french voting for such movements. Is like when you tell that LP is not France: that guy alone has more adherents than ANY of the other leaders, separately. So if one is France in first place, he is that one; why you talk when no idea about statistics?
artu said:
he is quite conscious and educated about political affairs.
Me too. And I have no objection to hear Galaad arguments.
artu said:
nationalism
lol, some words should be definitely banned from smart conversation. This means nothing except "I am in the good camp, you in the bad one". Thats so simple as that, I am used to.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted November 13, 2016 01:50 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 01:56, 13 Nov 2016.
|
I am in the middle of something, Sal, so, I may answer in detail later but just a few, very obvious objections.
1- When I said frigging French people, I was reffering to the crowds that marched the streets during that election, only movements that are considered at tha far-end of a spectrum create such massive reaction and this was only because he got some increase in the votes. I mean, a similar thing is happening in the US now, because Trump is considered an extreme politician for some of his statements, thousands are protesting, there are many riots etc. This wouldnt happen if it was any Republican winning against any Democrat. If Le Pen wasnt considered an extremist by a significant amount of French people, the protests wouldnt be so widespread all over France, they'd just shake their heads in disapproval and quietly wait for the second tour. And neither immigration nor Islamic terror was what it is today back then.
2- I'd like to remind you that Istanbul is also Europe and we too had many radical Islamic attacks. The British Embassy bombing actually shattered the front window of a car right outside my apartment. And we also had 3.000.000 refugees from Syria. Not to mention, there is a civil war in the Eastern border with the Kurds which brings out all kinds of nationalist conflicts and extremism in the political arena.
3- Yes, such an ideology called nationalism do happen to exist and although I had never been one myself, I am aware of the difference between moderate nationalists and outright bigot ones. I dont use the term as a synonym to "evil." But nationalism, especially after 19th Century, is by default a conservative ideology and I am not a conservative, so it's quite inevitable that I disagree with them most of the times. (And it doesnt have a pejorative connotation here, people say they are nationalists all the time.)
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
