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p4r4d0x0n
Famous Hero
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posted April 21, 2020 08:11 PM |
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I personally won't miss any of the "junk" skills, first aid, balistics (too situational), mysticism (even after update maybe useful in midgame for a short period), eagle eye (just delete it... as you said... you can't save it...), artillery...
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 21, 2020 08:54 PM |
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Ok I did a huge update (including graphic illustrations for many concepts) as well as added plenty of new stuff, including spells and artifacts. I implemented some of p4r4d0x0n's suggestions (those I felt didn't alter any original gameplay element), altering some and adding some other stuff.
Please see if anything I agreed to implement is missing.
Download version 4 here.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 22, 2020 12:44 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 01:46, 22 Apr 2020.
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Mm, drop Eagle Eye as a skill, but for those that have it as a speciality, make them able to pick up any spell (no percentage chances or level limits) cast by an enemy hero.
I also wouldn't mind seeing some heroes get spell specialities where, instead of boosting the effect of their own particular spell, they reduce the effectiveness of a particular cursing spell (say, Disrupting Ray, Slow, Curse or Weakness).
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted April 22, 2020 01:01 AM |
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Edited by RerryR at 01:01, 22 Apr 2020.
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Lord_Immortal said:
Ok I did a huge update (including graphic illustrations for many concepts) as well as added plenty of new stuff, including spells and artifacts. I implemented some of p4r4d0x0n's suggestions (those I felt didn't alter any original gameplay element), altering some and adding some other stuff.
Please see if anything I agreed to implement is missing.
Download version 4 here.
Nice compilation 
For the secondary skill part I would not agree because you combine to many skills, thus deleting like 5-6 skills from the game and only offer 3 new.
There are plenty solutions to make each skill better, or offer more new secondary skills as replacement.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 22, 2020 02:09 AM |
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RerryR said:
For the secondary skill part I would not agree because you combine to many skills, thus deleting like 5-6 skills from the game and only offer 3 new.
Agreed. I mean, Learning doesn't fit neatly with the other two, Pathfinding and Logistics are each good enough to be their own skills (Well, Pathfinding is when it has any use at all), Eagle Eye is IMO better as an individual bonus than a skill. Engineering and Alchemy are good though.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted April 22, 2020 04:41 AM |
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MattII said:
Mm, drop Eagle Eye as a skill, but for those that have it as a speciality, make them able to pick up any spell (no percentage chances or level limits) cast by an enemy hero.
This would certainly help, and I wouldn't mind having a hero like this in the game. However, having 7 heroes with this kind of ability would probably still be somewhat overkill, as it would be very niche speciality. Maybe dedice 1-2 to heroes who would have this, and simply get rid of the rest, and replace them with some other magic heroes? Could be used as a method to boost some lesser towns, and adding heroes with meaningfull abilities to their hero roster.
MattII said:
I also wouldn't mind seeing some heroes get spell specialities where, instead of boosting the effect of their own particular spell, they reduce the effectiveness of a particular cursing spell (say, Disrupting Ray, Slow, Curse or Weakness).
I'm not 100% sure if I understood correctly, but wouldn't Giselle be extremely powerful compared to a hero that only had reduced effectiveness against a certain spell?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 22, 2020 05:27 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 05:44, 22 Apr 2020.
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Hourglass said:
This would certainly help, and I wouldn't mind having a hero like this in the game. However, having 7 heroes with this kind of ability would probably still be somewhat overkill, as it would be very niche speciality. Maybe dedice 1-2 to heroes who would have this, and simply get rid of the rest, and replace them with some other magic heroes? Could be used as a method to boost some lesser towns, and adding heroes with meaningfull abilities to their hero roster.
Oris and Tiva then, since their towns only get level 3 Mage Guilds.
MattII said:
I'm not 100% sure if I understood correctly, but wouldn't Giselle be extremely powerful compared to a hero that only had reduced effectiveness against a certain spell?
True, but that's only one hero.
Other ideas for hero bonuses:
* Increase the speed of units by, say 1-2% per level.
* Some heroes have a pseudo-Diplomacy, where certain types of creatures are more inclined to join.
* Heroes who can recruit from external dwellings for a reduced price.
* Heroes who can upgrade certain creatures independent of towns/forts.
New Adventure Map spells:
* Firm Ground (Earth Magic) - Acts like Basic/Advanced/Expert Pathfinding for a single day.
* Favourable Tides (Water magic) - Acts like Basic/Advanced/Expert Navigation for a single day.
* Whispering Winds (Air Magic) - Acts like Basic/Advanced/Expert Scouting for a single day.
* Mire (Earth Magic) - Reduced enemy movement by 200/400/600 for rest of the day (must be within visual range to cast)
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sirironfist
Known Hero
King of the ogres
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posted April 22, 2020 09:07 AM |
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What if eagle eye made it possible to see the enemies secondary skills plus spells? A bit like a better visions spell. It would offer a strategical benefit.
And why exactly can it not be saved? Forgive me for not reading 100+ pages instead of asking.
In general I don't think it's a good idea to have even less skills. You would end up even more with having the very same skills on every hero. You could of course merge two skills, say ballistics and artillery and at the same time add a new one for pest tents, just as as an example.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted April 22, 2020 11:41 AM |
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sirironfist said:
And why exactly can it not be saved? Forgive me for not reading 100+ pages instead of asking.
There's no need to apologize about that.
In short, Eagle eye's core desing is very poor. For more detailed answer:
1. It's a chance based skill, and the opponent has all control if you can even have a chance of learning anything. There might also be cases where the opposing hero has not even the possiblity the cast any spells, because he has no mana.
2. Winning the battle is required in order to learn something.
3. Not all spells are to your interest, and some may even have become obsolete in the state of game you're fighting the other player - you're not that interested about learning a simple Magic arrow, if you can already cast various other damage spells.
4. The fact that you might learn the spell after the battle anyway: tomes, spell scrolls, mage guilds, shrines nearby where the battle happened. Basically, in almost all cases, the spell the opponent did cast does exist in the map somewhere.
5. This goes mostly to the multiplayer games, but is very true in the single play as well: when you're finished the most terrifying hero in the game, there are no more targets to utilize the new tricks, if you happened to learn something. Multiplayer games are GG at that point, and AI games are about you searching the final scouts and towns, but they don't posses any threat towards your army anymore.
6. The game is already flooded with many, many ways of learning new spells. The are Mage guilds, spell researchs, spell scrolls, tomes, the spellbinder hat, shrines, scholars, pyramids... I'm just typing this from the top of my head. Eagle Eye in that list is very non-consistant way of learning anything, as you can't make any plans in that regard.
7. The reason why I said the gaming experience is worse when EE exist in the game: If you would decide to learn Eagle Eye from witch hut for example (because it was free, yay!), it ends up damaging your heros progress. As you know, when hero gains a level, one skill can upgraded, or a new to be picked. If you have basic Eagle Eye at that point, the game might offer you the chance of making it advanced, even if you might have another skill you would rather have upgraded. So in other words, not only Eagle Eye takes a skill slot, but it also makes hero to miss about half of the benefits of the level up when adv./exp.EE is offered.
8. The game can go to the point where a hero has all the spells learned naturally, making Eagle Eye literally useless in that case.
9. Even if you would miraculously learn something you actually want would be willing to cast, and there would still be opponents to beat, we could still argue after the game if that event affected in any way to your ability of winning the game. For example, something like logistics can lead you having a better position by being able to be somewhere faster which would impossible for non-logistics hero. Same goes for offence/archery etc, which can allow you having victorius fights against enemies your army and stats wouldn't normally allow.
So in other words, this skill couldn't be saved because there are numerious of problems, and fixing just one issue wouldn't help much. Yes, we can add some other abilities to it, but then it pretty much stops being Eagle Eye, and turns into something very different, possibly without really making it any more desirable than it's now. And we would still have the same specialists and artifacts, how they would change the skill if some more abilites were merged to it? Easiest way would be just to ban them all, and replace the whole package with something else.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 22, 2020 11:48 AM |
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And that's why better merge it with a mediocre skill, Scholar.
Edit: You know, I still think Ghost Dragons should have an AI value just a little higher than Red and Green Dragons.
Edit 2: Wait, what exactly are we debating the existence of Eagle Eye for? So it becomes just like Resistance, "replaced" in PvP by another skill? I really don't know, but one thing is for sure: HotA will never drastically change a skill, nor will totally remove it, so we're forever gonna have Eagle Eye anyway.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 22, 2020 12:08 PM |
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Eh, Scholar goes pretty well with Wisdom IMO, not so much with Eagle Eye. Honestly, getting rid of it altogether (like they did with Resistance) is a better choice than trying to merge it IMO.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 22, 2020 12:12 PM |
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MattII said:
Eh, Scholar goes pretty well with Wisdom IMO, not so much with Eagle Eye. Honestly, getting rid of it altogether (like they did with Resistance) is a better choice than trying to merge it IMO.
Yeah, but it isn't really a "get rid of", it's just "replace in PvP" and "give another similar bonus skill for all other maps". I have both Resistance and Interference enabled usually, for more diversity (and more the anger, but I never ended up having crap skills at all).
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted April 22, 2020 12:41 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
Edit 2: Wait, what exactly are we debating the existence of Eagle Eye for? So it becomes just like Resistance, "replaced" in PvP by another skill? I really don't know, but one thing is for sure: HotA will never drastically change a skill, nor will totally remove it, so we're forever gonna have Eagle Eye anyway.
Well, I agree with you that they're not going to drastically change it, and it actually isn't something I would even hope for. I wish it would get the "Resistance-treatment", as it would still allow Hota be compatible with some custom maps that need Eagle Eye to be beaten. In short, there's nothing wrong if the skills exists, but it shouldn't be part of majority of the game. You know, we would call it, if we would need it. 
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 22, 2020 12:45 PM |
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Hourglass said:
FirePaladin said:
Edit 2: Wait, what exactly are we debating the existence of Eagle Eye for? So it becomes just like Resistance, "replaced" in PvP by another skill? I really don't know, but one thing is for sure: HotA will never drastically change a skill, nor will totally remove it, so we're forever gonna have Eagle Eye anyway.
Well, I agree with you that they're not going to drastically change it, and it actually isn't something I would even hope for. I wish it would get the "Resistance-treatment", as it would still allow Hota be compatible with some custom maps that need Eagle Eye to be beaten. In short, there's nothing wrong if the skills exists, but it shouldn't be part of majority of the game. You know, we would call it, if we would need it.
Totally agree. The only "buff" would be the possibility to learn all spells cast by the enemy, but that would make Eagle Eye artifacts useless . If anything, make the chance value higher and add the possibility to learn level 1-5 spells (and also during the battle and from units, after the spell is cast).
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 22, 2020 01:03 PM |
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MattII said:
New Adventure Map spells:
* Firm Ground (Earth Magic) - Acts like Basic/Advanced/Expert Pathfinding for a single day.
* Favourable Tides (Water magic) - Acts like Basic/Advanced/Expert Navigation for a single day.
* Whispering Winds (Air Magic) - Acts like Basic/Advanced/Expert Scouting for a single day.
* Mire (Earth Magic) - Reduced enemy movement by 200/400/600 for rest of the day (must be within visual range to cast)
Clairvoyance – Adventure map spell. Acts like Basic/Advanced/Expert Scouting for a day.
Firm Ground – Adventure map spell. Acts like Basic/Advanced/Expert Pathfinding for a day.
Industry – Adventure map spell. Boosts production of gold and resources for the next day but costs a lot of mana. Can be cast only once a week. Wood/Ore: +1/+2/+3 , Sulphur/Crystal/Diamond/Mercury: +0/1/2, Gold: +100/250/500.
Favorable Tides – Adventure map spell. Acts like Basic/Advanced/Expert Navigation for a day
I also renamed some spells and included the possibility that the Fortress alternative creature can also be Cannibal/Witch Doctor as alternate Lv1 given that there is a possibility for Cuoatls to be in Factory. Now it writes:
• Fortress: Cuoatls from Might & Magic 8 as alternative Lv3 OR Cannibals/Witch Doctors from M&M6 as alternate Lv1
EDIT: Skills now are:
• Scholar – Combined Scholar + Wisdom + Eagle Eye (Because it is implied that the learning of enemy spells during combat is attained through study)
• Mysticism – Combined Intelligence + Mysticism (I think it's strong enough with these 2
...
• Learning - Hero receives +1 to his primary skills for every 4/3/2 levels gained (including the ones already got) as well as a +10/20/25% bonus to experience
• Counterstrike – All units gain +1 extra retaliation as well as damage dealt on retaliation increased by 10/20/25%. (Retaliation does not increase with Basic/Adv/Expert)
• Occultism – Similar to Heroes V irresistible magic. Spells deal +20/40/60% damage to resistant units. (Removed the immunity thing, might be a game-breaking feature)
• Merchant - Improves trading prices from markets in towns. 2 heroes with merchant skill in a town accumulate their skills. This skill is typical mostly of Jadame and Desert Heroes.
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 22, 2020 05:04 PM |
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Okaay everyone...
I'm standing in front of a corrected 30 page-long proposal that would basically overhaul Horn of the Abyss into a game that probably encompasses the whole known Might and Magic universe of the games 1-8 (considering Factory town too).
So, I'd like to ask if anyone knows how to send the fifth (and probably final) version of the suggestions list to the HotA team in a way that is not too invasive and imposing.
This is merely a compilation of everything that could reasonably be added in Heroes III trying to:
• fix as many issues as possible
• Including everything that was scrapped from the early versions of Heroes III as well as everything that is existent in the M&M universe (at least MM1-8 and Heroes 1-3 with few exceptions of M&M 9 and Heroes IV)
• not making the gaming experience too different from the original.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 22, 2020 05:06 PM |
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Lord_Immortal said:
Okaay everyone...
I'm standing in front of a corrected 30 page-long proposal that would basically overhaul Horn of the Abyss into a game that probably encompasses the whole known Might and Magic universe of the games 1-8 (considering Factory town too).
So, I'd like to ask if anyone knows how to send the fifth (and probably final) version of the suggestions list to the HotA team in a way that is not too invasive and imposing.
This is merely a compilation of everything that could reasonably be added in Heroes III trying to:
• fix as many issues as possible
• Including everything that was scrapped from the early versions of Heroes III as well as everything that is existent in the M&M universe (at least MM1-8 and Heroes 1-3 with few exceptions of M&M 9 and Heroes IV)
• not making the gaming experience too different from the original.
Maybe politely ask one of the guys if they would accept you to send your our (comrades') suggestions list, for example, DrSlash?
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 22, 2020 08:13 PM |
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Here the final file (version 5).
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 22, 2020 08:14 PM |
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Lord_Immortal said:
Here the final file (version 5).
Downloading it now.
One thing: can I compress the text for portrait suggestions, since not all are relevant? I explained which ones should be removed before (the Titan portrait and Archer portrait thing).
"schools will effect affect"
We should include a disclaimer saying these are only suggestions and we don't expect to see all of them used, so they won't think we just want to change their game as we want to.
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted April 22, 2020 08:42 PM |
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Forgive me, the link apparently went down soon. I re-uploaded in another website:
Here
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