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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This Popular Thread is 149 pages long: 1 20 40 60 80 100 120 140 ... 141 142 143 144 145 ... 149 · «PREV / NEXT»
Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Legendary Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted May 27, 2020 07:33 PM
Edited by Oddball13579 at 19:34, 27 May 2020.

Wow I just found out about Interference today. This is quite a cool skill.

Does it replace Resistance?

Edit: Oh okay it's a skill for Might Heroes. That would be why I haven't come across it yet, despite playing recently.
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"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

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Aciel
Aciel

Tavern Dweller
posted May 28, 2020 04:31 AM

Hi, this is my first post. I want to share with you all my ideas for balancing magic system in H3, which is now obviously broken.

Current magic system looks like that:
Earth>Air>Fire>Water
Earth Magic is also the best skill in the game and failure to get it will probably result in losing MP game.

How I see it:
Fire should offer best attacking skills.
Earth for defense and debuff.
Water for healing/buff.
Air for support.

My goal is to propose the simpliest solution. There are a few possibilities, but the easiest is to change some spells magic school.To offer balance, all schools should have a good 1 lv spell.

1) Water should get Resurrection, Shield and Magic Mirror. Magic Mirror should be stronger  and offer 1-time 100% reflection on all units on expert.

2) Fire should get Implosion. Armageddon should be either only an Expert lv spell(if possible) or offer laughable damage on Basic and Advance, but hit stronger on Expert. Blind should cost a lot more without Fire Magic.
Curse should be buffed to cause -20% dmg to all enemies on expert instead of it's current effect.  

3) Air would be mostly the same. It could use a Dispell and Anti-Magic, but I'm not sure about that one.  

4) Earth should lose Resurrection, Implosion and Shield. With Slow it would still be very strong.  

5) Finally, the second most OP spell in the game after slow, Town Portal, should belong to all four schools like the Magic Arrow. If it's possible, it should disappear from Book Relics, so it wouldn't be so easy to get on some rich templates.

Some heroes would need a bigger chance for getting other magic schools. Alamar for example should get Water insted of Earth if my proposition will hold.    
Other than that, some spells could use some buffing (f.ex. Hypnotize, Frost Ring).  


That's all. Two most important things are nerfing the Earth Magic and giving all elements a good 1 lv spell (Slow/Haste/Shield/Curse) which are useful for MP games and doing monster banks on the 1st week.

Thx for reading
 
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sirironfist
sirironfist


Known Hero
King of the ogres
posted May 28, 2020 09:35 AM
Edited by sirironfist at 09:38, 28 May 2020.

Hi and welcome!

I'm sharing what went through my mind reading your proposals.

I find your judgement of the strength of the magic schools a bit off to be honest. If you ask me, water magic is certainly better than fire and I oftentimes pick it even over air magic. Mass bless on a might hero can wreak a lot of havoc.

I agree that fire should have more devastating damage spells. Someone made the proposal of a spell that's like  the opposite of prayer. I liked that idea a lot.
Increasing fire ball and inferno range by 1 hex and increasing damage by a bit would help already, I think.

I'd rarely ever pick earth magic if it offered nothing but slow. Especially since slow was already slightly nerfed.

I agree that air could really do with some improvements, since fly and dd are rarely allowed, neither in custom maps nor in MP.

Changing magic mirror to 100% will result in the spell losing it's purpose. Because, guess what? Nobody will ever cast a spell on you because they know it's coming back at them. That would make magic mirror become just like anti-magic as a result. They'll either dispel or not cast a spell at all.
Keeping it as it is, but converting it into a mass spell on expert level seems good to me though.

Curse is very useful as it is. I would argue that it's current effect is even more powerful than your -20% damage proposal. The -20% would make it more universally usable of course. As it is now, you've got the air elemental which will just cry in a corner when it's cursed and you've got nagas who'll laugh at you and still deal their full damage. But I think that's exactly what makes the whole thing more interesting.


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted May 28, 2020 11:25 AM

There could be a pop-up window when pressing on one of the creature's special ability, explaining what it does exactly and maybe even contain the formula (for example, for Poison or Haspid's Revenge).
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Aciel
Aciel

Tavern Dweller
posted May 28, 2020 05:22 PM

Thanks for feedback, sirironfist!

I am speaking from the perspective of a Multiplayer games player. In a competetive scene, no matter if it's Jebus/King Cross or templates imitating original heroes (f.ex. h3dm1), what you need to do is to create a powerstack - a strong unit of either archers or melee fighters of 1/2/3lv. You use that stack to attack enemies, so Mass Bless is useless since normal Bless will suffice. Prayer is good, but no one will wait till they have expert Water and Advanced Wisdom, not to mention 4lv magic guild, which is a very, very hard thing to do early, since in MP games you lack even gold most of the time (no one ever builds City Hall or Capitol), not to mention other resources.  

Generally, in MP games, no one ever takes Water unless there's an useless skill to choose instead. Even on Arena, a template for fights where you can get Prayer easily, not many players choose it.
 

Next, after getting the powerstack, the players try to defeat monster banks (Griffin Conservatory, Wolf Raider Picket, etc.) Rewards for these are Angels, Cyclops and other strong units. Players have to do these as soon as week 1 on fast templates. Normally, you can do small Griffin Cons(50 griffins) with just a powerstack. With Mass Slow you can tackle bigger ones: 100 or 150 griffins. Before the Slow nerf, pro players could defeat 150 griffins and get 3 Angels as soon as week1, which is a massive boost to army's fighting strength. Getting Earth Magic and Slow could make a difference between a failure and a tremendous boost.

Therefore Slow is king in MP. In some situations, Mass Haste could also help you in monster banks, since Griffins have only 6 speed and wolf raiders 8, however Fire and Water Magic are basically useless in that situation. They need a good 1st lv spell and they need it badly.

-20% dmg to all when using Curse is not a nerf to creatures damage stat, but to overall damage caused by enemy. Basically, it's the opposite of Shield, which grants 30% reduction to damage. I propose 20% instead of 30%, since Attack is generally better than defence in most situations. It's the only way I know how to make Curse truly useful, since now it's a very situational spell.
   
Even with my proposed changes, Earth would still be the best school early game, but other schools would be stronger late game.
Air would be great for map control(well, it already is). Fire would have best attack spell: Implosion. With Water and Resurrection you could tackle fights you normally wouldn't pick, like Dragon Utopia early on. Every School would have something to offer. It would make a more balanced and strategic game that is now.    

 
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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted May 29, 2020 08:40 PM

@Aciel,

Interesting ideas and welcome to the forums!

Some of the ideas are perhaps quite dramatic, but I definetly second this:

Quote:

5) Finally, the second most OP spell in the game after slow, Town Portal, should belong to all four schools like the Magic Arrow. If it's possible, it should disappear from Book Relics, so it wouldn't be so easy to get on some rich templates.


About curse:

I personally think Curse is quite handy and overall good spell. It's not the most flashiest spell, but if you're facing against one powerful stack, and you're afraid of the damage it can cause, casting Curse is usually more effective than casting Shield, even if the damage range of the creature wouldn't be very wide.

Example: Stack of 100 Pixies attacks another stack of 100 Pixies. Since the attacks and defence values would be identical, we can forget them and only focus the damage range, whitch on Pixie's case is 1-2.

Now, the rock bottom result would be 100x1 = 100 dmg, and the best possible situation 100x2 = 200dmg.
However, the most avarage situation would be they dealing 150 damage. Therefore, if the player would cast curse on enemy pixies,  we can assume them dealing 50% less damage than in the most avarage situation. That's way better than Shield would do, and Curse could be used against ranged enemy as well.


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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Legendary Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted May 29, 2020 09:09 PM

I mean you could cast Curse and Shield together and really nerf the damage that is being dealt. Throw in Misfortune and your enemy is gonna be doing pebbles for damage.

One thing that I would like to see though—and I know it has probably been said numerous times—is either Gold Dragons have full spell immunity, or Black Dragons vulnerable to level 5 spells.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted May 31, 2020 03:21 PM

Suggestion:

Give each artifact own (unique) RMG value. This way really powerful artifacts would have proper guards. This wouldn't likely change how treasure and minor artifacts would be guarded, but would rather effect on Major and Relic artifacts. IMO Helm of Heavenly Enlightenment should be better guarded than Sandals of the Saint. There would be no need of changing how Utopias, Graveyeards etc. would give player artifacts, these changes would only apply on artifacts player can literally see in the adventure map.

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 31, 2020 05:40 PM

Isn't it possible via template editor?
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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted May 31, 2020 05:51 PM

avatar said:
Isn't it possible via template editor?


You can edit artifact level rmg values, but not individual values of artifacts. Same goes for spell scrolls.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted June 02, 2020 06:18 PM

As for powerful spell in general it would fit, that powerful spells cost gems like they did in "World of Xeen" it would also fit in the lore and the big gem use of "Tower" town. Let's say townportal -> 1 gem for each cast.

Implosion was Element of "Energy" in World of Xeen... so not any of the elements in HoMM.

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Aciel
Aciel

Tavern Dweller
posted June 02, 2020 08:32 PM

The town portal costing one gem is interesting idea, but I think that it would kill control game in multiplayer matches, when players already have armies and try to take each other castles. Limiting town portal like that would limit player's ability to move troops effectively.
Also, I can already imagine all the pain when you get 500 gold instead of 5 gems in a fountain

But for single player maps, I think it would be interesting idea, as long as it's an optional thing.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted June 02, 2020 11:16 PM

Hm, on the point of spells costing resources, what about a skill that would allow a her to sacrifice resources to regain mana? The exchange rate could be 1 (gold)/10 (wood or ore)/20 (rare resources) mana resource point at basic, rising to 2/20/50 at advanced, and 5/50/100 at expert.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted June 03, 2020 10:06 PM
Edited by Hourglass at 22:13, 03 Jun 2020.

You guys are really seem to value resources. Imo town portal costing +1 gems wouldn't change things at all. Perhaps it could play some kind of role, if the map has been very poor on purpose, but other than that it wouldn't be a real nerf. In casual games you have all the time to hoard gems as many as you need, and in multiplayer templates the maps tend to be rich, and players have access to multiple towns, so they can easily exchange resources in marketplaces. Also, it's often not required to cast multiple town portals during turn.

And if you could sacrifice resources into mana, well, that would basically mean infinite mana, if 1 gold -> 1 mana. Even powerful warlocks could usually regain all their mana by paying less than 500 gold. I think bit more interesting skill could be if this idea would be turned to it's head -> use mana in order to create resources. Of course, it should have some kind of daily cap, and perhaps you shouldn't be able to create gold. Basically the limits should be really harsh, as hero could just sit in town, but the game doesn't have a resource-related skill yet, so something like that could fill a niche spot.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 03, 2020 10:21 PM

As if the cost of Titans and Archangels wasn't enough... Now you're gonna charge gems too?
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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Legendary Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted June 04, 2020 10:27 PM
Edited by Oddball13579 at 22:27, 04 Jun 2020.

Hourglass said:
And if you could sacrifice resources into mana, well, that would basically mean infinite mana, if 1 gold -> 1 mana. Even powerful warlocks could usually regain all their mana by paying less than 500 gold.
I wake.  

Hourglass said:
I think bit more interesting skill could be if this idea would be turned to it's head -> use mana in order to create resources. Of course, it should have some kind of daily cap, and perhaps you shouldn't be able to create gold. Basically the limits should be really harsh, as hero could just sit in town, but the game doesn't have a resource-related skill yet, so something like that could fill a niche spot.
I wake.

In all seriousness I love both of these ideas. Although I'd say instead of sacrificing resources into mana it should be artifacts instead. You got a big fight coming up and no mana? You gonna try and brute force this fight or you gonna sacrifice that nice juicy artifact that gives you a +5 to your attack skill? You got an upcoming battle that you can't win but you could seriously dent your enemies forces and you don't want to hand over your artifacts to him? Cannibalize them and spam cast implosion and chain lightning.

Also turning mana into resources? I love it. Add a resource based skill onto that that enhances how potent/cost effective this process is? I love it!
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 04, 2020 11:37 PM

I know Horn of the Abyss is supposed to be a powerful artifact. In fact I think it's even better than Cloak of the Undead King, which is also a very OP artifact.
So Horn of the Abyss is not really suited for "normal gameplay".
Would'nt you please consider making the artifact less OP or perhaps make a similar, but less OP artifact, that can actually be used in games?
I don't really understand why you have'nt nerfed Cloak of the Undead King yet either.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted June 05, 2020 12:45 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 00:50, 05 Jun 2020.

How about you try the artifact in question before making a suggestion? Neither the Cloak nor the Horn are OP. They are powerful but on a normal map, if you can't Fly, DD and TP all around and don't chain them what you get wont beat a town's weekly production. Of course, if you play "like a boss" you can get much more then that but if you really play "like a boss" that's the cherry on top of the cake...
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 05, 2020 07:48 AM

I have tried both, otherwise I would'nt make such a statement.
I don't understand how you can say making hundreds or thousands of Power Liches or Fangarms is not OP?!
Horn of the Abyss even creates Fangarms from your own dead stacks and they appear in combat unlike CotUK.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted June 05, 2020 08:10 AM
Edited by Hourglass at 08:15, 05 Jun 2020.

The Horn is definetly OP, but it's only meant to be part of the campaign, just like the arma blade. Cloak is also extremely OP, but there is a "nerf", as it cannot created under tournament rules.

So, as both are banned, there really isn't  a need for them to be changed. Players who are willing to spice up their games can allow them and have some fun. To my experience there would be a number of players who would complain a lot if these artifacts would be changed. This way everyone can be happy.

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