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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8
Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8 This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted April 14, 2020 12:55 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 12:59, 14 Apr 2020.

@Alon

I didn't even think about D&D; these are all known creatures outside of D&D and stuff; gorgons, gnolls, lizardmen, dragonflies, wyverns and even basilisks.

And about Inferno, I don't see why it could be so different than the Christian one, since they are mostly basically creatures taken from there. And yes, the HoMM Devil (at least H3) could be called tricky with the no-retaliation and high speed. That's one of the first things I noticed.

I feel more weird about changing Genies' gender at upgrade or them becoming efreeti, but someone could think of Firebirds as a "basis" for more magical birds. Or the base creature could be some kind of magic bird instead.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted April 14, 2020 01:14 PM
Edited by MattII at 13:22, 14 Apr 2020.

Gnolls are DnD I think (though legends of were-hyenas exist so it might be okay to use), as are Gorgons as scaly bulls (the original Gorgons were sisters to Medusa. Deadly bulls did exist, but were called Catoblepas), but that's it for Fortress. The Evil-Eye/Beholder from the Dungeon is DnD though.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted April 14, 2020 01:31 PM

@MattII

Gnolls as creatures are in fact some african mythology creatures (but the natives don't call them like that). The gorgon is just a weird mix (I have to agree, probably from D&D). Evil Eyes are from D&D, that's true, but mostly any other creature is based off an existent mythological or religious one.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted April 14, 2020 01:35 PM

Mythological wyverns breathe fire like dragons. The poison-type wyverns are a D&D-ism, I think. Mythological basilisks are likewise very different from D&D basilisks - they're poisonous but do not turn people to stone. Playing H3 before reading any D&D sourcebook I felt weird about the gorgons having death power and the basilisks turning enemies to stone rather than the reverse.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted April 14, 2020 01:46 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 14:59, 14 Apr 2020.

@Alon

Well, I thought they did that because the Medusae already turned to stone and they couldn't do the same thing for Gorgons. But even so, they still are mythological creatures, even if they are changed and/or are similar to their D&D counterparts.

Edit: Fun fact: Angels/Archangels from H5 and H6 are females, and those from H7 are probably too.

Edit 2: For Phoenixes/Simurgh, think of it as infusing the base, magic bird with a certain element, either fire or just enhancing it into a more powerful magic bird, the Simurgh. But the Simurgh is just an example, however.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted April 14, 2020 07:05 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 18:23, 15 Apr 2020.

Thank you for the comments and replies!

I don't really like Heroes 3, all that much... To Be Honest!
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted April 15, 2020 06:22 PM

Upgrade choices have become an integral part of the game.

They add to the complexity and variety of the unit composition of the player's armies. To further expand on and explain my original idea: The hero should have the ability to transcend his alignment and accept a wider variety of troops from different factions. He or she shouldn't be restricted to using a single set of units from a single alignment. Instead of having 7 slots for 7 specific tiers, how about having 8 slots, and not having to depend on his or her town's weekly creature growth so much. There should be other sources for recruitment, like random stacks joining. This is the critical fun factor of the original HoM&M formula.

Thank you for your consideration!
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted April 15, 2020 07:15 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 20:37, 15 Apr 2020.

veteran_player said:
They add to the complexity and variety of the unit composition of the player's armies. To further expand on and explain my original idea: The hero should have the ability to transcend his alignment and accept a wider variety of troops from different factions. He or she shouldn't be restricted to using a single set of units from a single alignment. Instead of having 7 slots for 7 specific tiers, how about having 8 slots, and not having to depend on his or her town's weekly creature growth so much. There should be other sources for recruitment, like random stacks joining. This is the critical fun factor of the original HoM&M formula.

Thank you for your consideration!


To be honest, I rarely have my 7 slots filled (except if I have Master Genies, which is common for me). I usually fill them only at the end of the game if needed. And some units are automatically dropped usually (dwarves, dendroids, gremlins, gargoyles, imps, etc.).

Edit: An idea would be adding damage resistances and more reasonable damage types like "physical", "fire", "magic", "lightning", etc. Each creature, for example fire-breathing dragons, would have a 80% fire damage resistance and 80% magic, but only 10% physical and 0% ice.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted April 15, 2020 09:49 PM

There's a game called Legend of Keepers that sort of uses this system of resistances - you're supposed to choose monsters and attacks to maximize damage based on hero resistance and resistances that minimize damage taken from hero attacks.

But bear in mind, this mechanic doesn't really make sense with every Heroes faction. Just about every Castle/Haven/Knight unit causes physical damage. Of the 6 towns of H2, H4, and H7, the only one with big variations in attack type is the Tower/Academy/Wizard, plus maaaaaaaybe the Dungeon/Asylum/Warlock.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted April 15, 2020 10:13 PM

Alon said:
There's a game called Legend of Keepers that sort of uses this system of resistances - you're supposed to choose monsters and attacks to maximize damage based on hero resistance and resistances that minimize damage taken from hero attacks.

But bear in mind, this mechanic doesn't really make sense with every Heroes faction. Just about every Castle/Haven/Knight unit causes physical damage. Of the 6 towns of H2, H4, and H7, the only one with big variations in attack type is the Tower/Academy/Wizard, plus maaaaaaaybe the Dungeon/Asylum/Warlock.


Maybe not that high resistances though, but you get the idea (I took it from KB). Troops could also deal combined damage, for example Angels/Archangels.

And yeah, it probably won't work too much unless executed well.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted April 15, 2020 11:37 PM

In RTSes there's damage type by armor - e.g. in Red Alert there are four damage types, to infantry, armor, and I forget the other two; in Starcraft every unit is small, medium, or large, and in SC 2 units can be light, armored, massive, or none of these.

For a Heroes-relevant example: heavy plate armor was historically invulnerable(-ish) to arrows. So archers probably aren't doing much damage to heavy cavalry, ents, skeletons, or golems, but they delete lightly-armored units (light cavalry, zombies, other archers, etc.). But magical or fire-based attacks ignore armor, and very heavy physical strikes like the lance of heavy cavalry or the warhammer of a dwarf are barely affected by armor. Ents probably take double damage from fire attacks. If there's a nereid with a water attack, then this attack alone causes double damage to fire-based units like the phoenix, the salamander, and the ifrit, and probably also to the vampire.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted April 15, 2020 11:37 PM
Edited by MattII at 23:39, 15 Apr 2020.

FirePaladin said:
Edit: An idea would be adding damage resistances and more reasonable damage types like "physical", "fire", "magic", "lightning", etc. Each creature, for example fire-breathing dragons, would have a 80% fire damage resistance and 80% magic, but only 10% physical and 0% ice.
Hm, 'Physical', 'Fire', 'Lightning', 'Ice', and 'Magic' is pretty good, though you could go further and add others, like 'Death' (doesn't affect undead, elementals, golems, etc), 'Anti-Magic' (only affects undead, elementals, golems, etc).

Alon said:
But bear in mind, this mechanic doesn't really make sense with every Heroes faction. Just about every Castle/Haven/Knight unit causes physical damage. Of the 6 towns of H2, H4, and H7, the only one with big variations in attack type is the Tower/Academy/Wizard, plus maaaaaaaybe the Dungeon/Asylum/Warlock.
Well I imagine it would be more used for spells than creature damage anyway.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted April 15, 2020 11:51 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 23:54, 15 Apr 2020.

MattII said:
FirePaladin said:
Edit: An idea would be adding damage resistances and more reasonable damage types like "physical", "fire", "magic", "lightning", etc. Each creature, for example fire-breathing dragons, would have a 80% fire damage resistance and 80% magic, but only 10% physical and 0% ice.
Hm, 'Physical', 'Fire', 'Lightning', 'Ice', and 'Magic' is pretty good, though you could go further and add others, like 'Death' (doesn't affect undead, elementals, golems, etc), 'Anti-Magic' (only affects undead, elementals, golems, etc).

Alon said:
But bear in mind, this mechanic doesn't really make sense with every Heroes faction. Just about every Castle/Haven/Knight unit causes physical damage. Of the 6 towns of H2, H4, and H7, the only one with big variations in attack type is the Tower/Academy/Wizard, plus maaaaaaaybe the Dungeon/Asylum/Warlock.
Well I imagine it would be more used for spells than creature damage anyway.


But it would be necessary for creatures if it exists for spells, at least in my opinion, since I think it's secondary for spells. Resistances should be a max of 20%, with some exceptions (and not even necessary to have them for all damage types). Death could exist, but it's still somewhat connected to magic, so maybe "Death Magic(al)" damage? Also "Poison" and "Astral".

The 80% fire and magic resistance was from KB's Blackies, which works well there, but it would be OP in HoMM . In HoMM, I think it should be a max of 50%, with much indulgence.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted April 16, 2020 02:17 AM
Edited by MattII at 12:10, 08 May 2020.

FirePaladin said:
But it would be necessary for creatures if it exists for spells, at least in my opinion, since I think it's secondary for spells. Resistances should be a max of 20%, with some exceptions (and not even necessary to have them for all damage types). Death could exist, but it's still somewhat connected to magic, so maybe "Death Magic(al)" damage? Also "Poison" and "Astral".

The 80% fire and magic resistance was from KB's Blackies, which works well there, but it would be OP in HoMM . In HoMM, I think it should be a max of 50%, with much indulgence.
True enough. OTOH, things like elementals would likely have significant resistance to their own elemental damage, but limited otherwise. Then you have the 'Protection from X'/'X Ward' spells.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted April 16, 2020 04:08 AM

Golems and dwarves have high magic resistance in H3. It's not OP provided you leave a vulnerability that every faction can exploit given sufficient scouting and good enough play.

Let's say you're building tons of golems, intending to counter my magic hero. I should be able to see this in advance if I play well - maybe there's thieves' guild information, maybe I should actually notice how slow your hero is moving on the map, maybe I can even sacrifice a scout army to check your army comp. Your golem army is slow so I should have a few turns to build a decent might army before all my castle is belong to you. I should have a strong might hero ready to command this army without having to level one up from scratch because when we started playing I was aware you're playing Tower and could go mass golem and I should be able to switch from magic to might if need be.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted April 16, 2020 10:28 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 10:29, 16 Apr 2020.

Alon said:
Golems and dwarves have high magic resistance in H3. It's not OP provided you leave a vulnerability that every faction can exploit given sufficient scouting and good enough play.

Let's say you're building tons of golems, intending to counter my magic hero. I should be able to see this in advance if I play well - maybe there's thieves' guild information, maybe I should actually notice how slow your hero is moving on the map, maybe I can even sacrifice a scout army to check your army comp. Your golem army is slow so I should have a few turns to build a decent might army before all my castle is belong to you. I should have a strong might hero ready to command this army without having to level one up from scratch because when we started playing I was aware you're playing Tower and could go mass golem and I should be able to switch from magic to might if need be.


By 50% as a max I meant usually for most troops (but that is still kinda much, I can't see an armored knight having more than 30%), with exceptions like golems, etc. But I totally agree with what you and MattII said.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted April 16, 2020 06:26 PM
Edited by Alon at 18:27, 16 Apr 2020.

I so want to try coding this and invite people to test this in a Discord channel, but I'm terrible at coding. I think I know how to code combat and it might even be object-oriented, but a lot of stuff would have to be hardcoded and I can't even begin to figure out how to integrate this into Discord so that people can play 1v1 on the Internets.

EDIT: give modular enough code, it shouldn't be a problem to let people play with balance.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted April 16, 2020 07:02 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 19:03, 16 Apr 2020.

Alon said:
I so want to try coding this and invite people to test this in a Discord channel, but I'm terrible at coding. I think I know how to code combat and it might even be object-oriented, but a lot of stuff would have to be hardcoded and I can't even begin to figure out how to integrate this into Discord so that people can play 1v1 on the Internets.

EDIT: give modular enough code, it shouldn't be a problem to let people play with balance.


You could try VCMI for testing.

As for making a standalone testing game, I would use Game Maker. The code's relatively easy.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted April 16, 2020 10:55 PM

Does VCMI work if I want to do tweaks like let heroes have 10 different unit stacks instead of 7? [I presume it allows creatures to have their own spells as in H4 rather than relying on the hero to cast elective spells.]
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted April 16, 2020 11:18 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 23:19, 16 Apr 2020.

Alon said:
Does VCMI work if I want to do tweaks like let heroes have 10 different unit stacks instead of 7? [I presume it allows creatures to have their own spells as in H4 rather than relying on the hero to cast elective spells.]


Well, that was unexpected. I doubt that, though. VCMI retains the same basic functions as HoMM3, but everything else can be adjusted.

But maybe it can be done, I don't know exactly how VCMI's code works.

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