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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8
Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8 This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 15, 2020 05:20 PM

veteran_player said:
I don't think HoM&M can be converted to science fiction successfully. But Starcraft certainly was and continues to be successful, maybe even more so than Heroes of Might & Magic.


The original HoMM IS sci-fi, it just looks like fantasy on the surface. Besides, comparing the success of an RTS vs TBS is moot.
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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 15, 2020 06:09 PM

I bring up Starcraft because if you look under the hood, the evolution from Warcraft is visible, esp. in comparison with series that were never fantasy, like Command and Conquer. In C&C, every single unit has a ranged attack. In Starcraft, not even all Terran units do, let alone Zerg and Protoss units. And you can even draw a direct line from footman-archer armies in Warcraft 1 to ling-hydra or zealot-dragoon.

My point here is that you can come up with a game that has mechanics that are a natural evolution of H3 and H5, but shift to a lore from a different genre. The castles would look like modern military fortresses and the catapults would be replaced with artillery but sieges might not even work too differently. Hero spells would be replaced with various support actions - air support, new supplies, whatever - but could even function on a mana-like system, like the caster units of Starcraft. Alien races could be stereotypes as in Starcraft or actually interesting first contact cases as in so much literary hard SF. And so on...
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 15, 2020 08:19 PM

Mm, I don't know. HoMM has dozens of spells, and some wouldn't convert easily I think. Nor do I think Scifi is really the way to go with the series. I mean, I'm not against a steampunk/gunpowder faction (steampunk is inherently fantastical, if not a bit magical, and gunpowder isn't inherently un-magical), but just one faction.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 15, 2020 09:35 PM

I don't think it's the way to go either, what I'd like to see is a tight game with,

- A fair but not insane number of factions, say the same 6 of H2/4/7.
- Similar combat mechanics to H3 or H5, maybe with some cleanups for how units support each other or how spells work.
- A tech tree informed by 4X games to at least some extent.
- Well-thought macro, with difficult choices regarding army composition, tech, and the expand-attack-defend rock-paper-scissors game.
- A story that's not centered on just one faction like the H3 Castle and isn't completely trite like in Battle for Wesnoth or Wargroove.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 16, 2020 12:29 AM

A tech tree? I know towns have always had a build order, but I don't think we've ever had an actual tech tree in the game before.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 16, 2020 01:07 AM
Edited by Alon at 23:39, 16 May 2020.

Yeah, Songs of Conquest plans to implement one similar to the ages of Age of Empires and Civ. No plans for a tech tree as elaborate as Civ or Alpha Centauri, though.

Another thing that departs from the Heroes formula that I think would be very useful is to make the upgrades part of the tech tree. What this means is that you spend the resources and time on researching the upgrade, let's say you can do this in a town you own instead of building a structure, and then it immediately applies to all of your units. So instead of pikeman -> halberdier, let's say you just have a pikeman unit, with 4 distinct upgrades, which can be researched in any order:

1. Long pikes: the pikeman has reach and therefore has first strike both when attacking and when defending.
2. Field plates: the pikeman gets additional defense (maybe some extra HP?).
3. Cohesion drills: the pikeman has better unit cohesion and therefore gets +2 morale.
4. Charge: the pikeman gets +2 to speed on the battlefield.

EDIT: I might actually post a proposal with an entire lineup with possible upgrades. Please tell me not to do so because I have my actual job to do.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 16, 2020 01:50 AM

Wait until you get home to post your proposal.

Also, upgrades seem to be the thing these days, so I'd prefer at least one game didn't have them.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 16, 2020 02:04 AM

I work from home . But thanks .
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 16, 2020 01:34 PM

In any case, I'm not terribly fond of introducing tech-trees into HoMM, I think the game does very well without it, and that introducing it would only add another complication that isn't really needed.

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Valen-Teen
Valen-Teen


Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
posted May 17, 2020 01:05 AM

Thought about special buildings for every faction like Necropolises’ Shrine of the Netherworld, inferno’s Sacrificial pit  or Slave Market for Stronghold. Main idea - spending unusable creatures for some features (not increasing creatures’ growth)

Haven - Farm Fields - Send creatures work on farms and get some gold for taxes - 1 unit (any level) for 1 gold per day.
Academy - Chimera Laboratory - Hero gets +1 to mana maximum for every 10 units sending for experiments
Fortress - Wall watch - You can send units to this building and they will help defenders of the town (like Guard post). You cant get those creatures back.
Sylvan - Botanic garden -  Killing creatures as fertilizer you can make  your plant creatures tougher
Sanctuary - Shalassa Shrine - +1 dmg to water spells for every 10 creatures sacrificed
Dungeon - Scout expedition - for every 10 creatures +1 radius of view (or control zone) for the town
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 17, 2020 05:01 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 17:03, 17 May 2020.

Alon said:
Another thing that departs from the Heroes formula that I think would be very useful is to make the upgrades part of the tech tree. What this means is that you spend the resources and time on researching the upgrade, let's say you can do this in a town you own instead of building a structure, and then it immediately applies to all of your units. So instead of pikeman -> halberdier, let's say you just have a pikeman unit, with 4 distinct upgrades, which can be researched in any order:


This idea reminds me of Fantasy General - a good old fashioned fantasy tbs game from the 1990s. It was very different from HoM&M, but I still enjoyed it quite a bit... After all, the fun-factor is critical!
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 17, 2020 10:16 PM

Mm, I suppose tech upgrading could work if you ditched creature upgrades, but I think it would be a lot of work you come up with 3/4/etc. techs per creature that don't come off as horribly generic.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 18, 2020 02:40 AM

Yeah, this is definitely hard, esp. if lineups have 8-10 units per faction and not 6-7...
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 18, 2020 04:14 AM
Edited by MattII at 01:25, 02 Sep 2020.

It would probably also play hob with the stack setup. An interesting idea, but one, I think, that would be difficult to implement properly in our case.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 18, 2020 09:00 PM

Coronavirus...

I would think the coronavirus pandemic would stimulate the further development of the HoMM series, it being an old mostly single-player t-b-s staple - known about, throughout the world. One need not depend on the internet for everything! This discussion thread is just a communal wad of ideas and perspectives! Thank you all for contributing!
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 18, 2020 09:06 PM

Why would it stimulate that?
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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 19, 2020 05:13 AM

More people are playing video games, I think? But also it looks like places are starting to open up (Germany is, not sure about other places), so I don't know if there's going to be a long-term increase in video game purchases...
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 19, 2020 11:23 AM

I doubt people are gonna purchase too many video games, unless they do have a stable income or lots of money. They need the money to have something to eat. In Italy, people were already tired of all restrictions due to many of them already having nothing to buy food with.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 20, 2020 05:52 AM

FirePaladin said:
I doubt people are gonna purchase too many video games, unless they do have a stable income or lots of money. They need the money to have something to eat. In Italy, people were already tired of all restrictions due to many of them already having nothing to buy food with.
Pretty much this.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 20, 2020 04:45 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 16:46, 20 May 2020.

don't rush it...

MattII said:
FirePaladin said:
I doubt people are gonna purchase too many video games, unless they do have a stable income or lots of money. They need the money to have something to eat. In Italy, people were already tired of all restrictions due to many of them already having nothing to buy food with.
Pretty much this.


Yes, demand is important. But before the finished product can be bought in stores or online, proper development has to take place. The team has to research the subject thoroughly and put it together piece by piece... The HoM&M series is 25 years old and not in need of another rushed, unfinished release...

The formula and mechanics need not be set in stone. We don't really need just another sequel. It has to be original! It has to be fun! It has to be better than the competition. That's what made the original game such a cultist progenitor!
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