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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8
Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8 This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 10, 2020 08:15 PM

veteran_player said:
The community's mentality on the subject shouldn't be so stuck on and obsessed with Heroes 3! Just learn to grow past that!


Like 90% of comments from community regarding gameplay were referring to H5 but whatever.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 10, 2020 09:20 PM

Yeah, the problem with the Heroes 7 skill system is that it's similar to the Heroes 5 one but more limited. Heroes are now prevented from learning the majority of skills.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 11, 2020 04:23 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 16:52, 13 May 2020.

Galaad said:
veteran_player said:
The community's mentality on the subject shouldn't be so stuck on and obsessed with Heroes 3! Just learn to grow past that!


Like 90% of comments from community regarding gameplay were referring to H5 but whatever.


Well, the Heroes Community forums are only a small niche of the broader fan community... I am frustrated by the popular, profound and excessive exaltation of HoM&M3 as a gaming product. It's like being stuck in high-school for decades on end! I just don't agree that it is anything special... It's like being stuck in teen-world as an adult!

It's like a torrent of heroic-boss-baby "Butthole Surfers"! They might even be clogging the internet as a whole!  
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 11, 2020 08:18 PM
Edited by MattII at 20:18, 11 May 2020.

Well Heroes 5 has more interesting gameplay to be sure, but the campaigns were dull. 'Demons try to take over the world and everyone dog-piles them' isn't half as nuanced a storyline as the stuff from Heroes 3.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 11, 2020 08:25 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 09:35, 13 May 2020.

MattII said:
Well Heroes V has more interesting gameplay to be sure, but the campaigns were dull. 'Demons try to take over the world and everyone dog-piles them' isn't half as nuanced a storyline as the stuff from Heroes 3.


It was supposed to be the 3rd part of the series chronologically, tho, so from that point of view it could be ok.

However, even that kind of plot can be good, if well managed (like, slowly corrupting the people over tens and maybe hundreds of years and turning them into mental "slaves").

Edit: Exactly, MattII.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 13, 2020 05:43 AM

Regardless. Heroes 3 was a development of H2, but the story was solid, and the mechanics were mostly pretty good (a few skills were downright pointless). Heroes 4 ditched the old world (rankled a few players), and the mechanics were poorly balanced. Heroes 5 was a development of H3 mechanics-wise, but the story was boring. Heroes 6 wrecked the gameplay completely. And Heroes 7 was too little too late to try to rejuvenate the franchise.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 13, 2020 04:48 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 16:51, 13 May 2020.

MattII said:
Regardless. Heroes 3 was a development of H2, but the story was solid, and the mechanics were mostly pretty good (a few skills were downright pointless). Heroes 4 ditched the old world (rankled a few players), and the mechanics were poorly balanced. Heroes 5 was a development of H3 mechanics-wise, but the story was boring. Heroes 6 wrecked the gameplay completely. And Heroes 7 was too little too late to try to rejuvenate the franchise.


I am not sure that H5 was a development of H3. It innovated more than a little bit... My qualm is about the power of suggestion, rather than sound reasoning. There is no linear path of development. Each title must stand as its own! Heroes 3 was just Heroes 3 and not the end-all, be-all so many youngsters proclaim it to be! They're just trying to leave their footprints on the internet! I am hoping Heroes 8 will be able to move past that.

The mechanics of the whole series all date back to HoMM1 - which predated the internet all together. Heroes 3 is just Heroes 3 and my experience with it ended when I learned that a single chain lightning could wipe out your whole army! Not much strategy to that...
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 13, 2020 04:52 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 18:58, 13 May 2020.

Chain Lightning is not that strong even in the first fights... even with Solmyr... Now, if we're talking about Solmyr in H7, then yes, you could play with several gargoyles, lots of mana and only Chain Lightning.

And H5 is clearly a development of H3; almost the same mechanics, but "improved" as the devs thought it should. Look at H2-H3. It's the same "path", and you can clearly see H6 is its own thing and H7 is a game mechanics (and other stuff) mess.

Edit: What? For real? (and this excluding the crap which happened this year, ofc) Back then, people at least had a voice.
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 13, 2020 06:54 PM

In any case - I don't miss the 90s altogether. We have moved on to better times!
Happier times!
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 13, 2020 10:51 PM
Edited by MattII at 23:56, 13 May 2020.

veteran_player said:
I am not sure that H5 was a development of H3. It innovated more than a little bit... My qualm is about the power of suggestion, rather than sound reasoning. There is no linear path of development. Each title must stand as its own! Heroes 3 was just Heroes 3 and not the end-all, be-all so many youngsters proclaim it to be! They're just trying to leave their footprints on the internet! I am hoping Heroes 8 will be able to move past that.
Mechanics-wise, Heroes 3 was Heroes 2 with spell schools added in. Likewise, Heroes 5 was just Heroes 3 with Faction skills and perks added in.

Quote:
The mechanics of the whole series all date back to HoMM1 - which predated the internet all together. Heroes 3 is just Heroes 3 and my experience with it ended when I learned that a single chain lightning could wipe out your whole army! Not much strategy to that...
Only one hero (Solmyr) has it as a starting spell. It's a level 4 spell, so you won't be getting it from a shrine, and it has at most a one-in-ten chance of it showing up in a level 4 Mage Guild.

As for Heroes 3 being unfairly put on a pinnacle, what about Age of Empires 2? That got the same treatment, (notable the HD expansions on Steam).

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 14, 2020 05:21 PM

Heroes 3!

Notwithstanding the younger players' love for HoMM3, Heroes 8 would have to be different and innovate to capture the public's attention. Strategy gaming in the 2020s shouldn't resemble a pissing contest!! The theme of the series is that of a fantasy medieval wargame, which needs to evolve to keep up with the times... And not ostracize the younger generation! Heroes 5 did that well, but it is nearing the end of its lifespan.. This is what my thread is about. H8 couldn't and shouldn't be a perfect release, but it could very well shake up the strategy gaming world - if it is streamlined and intuitive enough!

Powerful, independent heroes with strong stacks capable of fighting protracted multiplayer battles... There is no need to stick with and rely on a set formula, or mechanics. The game should be fluid enough to allow even un-experienced novices to the series to learn, grow and have fun, through open-ended game-play! There is no need to even stick to the mechanics or fundamentals of HoMM1! The series has already been developed past that! It should be an open-ended, visually rewarding strategy experience - around the heroes - not the towns!

And to achieve all that: the team would have to take a clean break from arbitrary formulae or mechanics!

Brain-storming and day-dreaming about modern life in general without relying on the internet - for everything - can help achieve this!
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 14, 2020 05:41 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 17:42, 14 May 2020.

Dunno what to say about your idea. One thing is sure, though:

1. Either go the Ubi way, destroying the franchise.

2. The H2->H3->H5 way, improving the old concept (even if being almost the same mechanics).

3. Risk to be hated even more than H6 & H7 by totally changing the game, as you suggested, a thing which the new 1C Company does to The Witcher rip-off with TBS battles - sorry, I meant King's Bounty 2.

4. There probably are other intermediary ways too.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 14, 2020 05:47 PM

They need a gameplay breakthrough. Arguably an atmosphere breakthrough as well. That one more turn feel of a fun and exciting game. They shouldn't bother if they can't figure that out. I don't want sequels for the sake of it.

Some ideas that I read in this thread were consolidated long ago in one of my threads, there's a link in my signature for anyone interested.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 14, 2020 07:17 PM

Stevie said:
They need a gameplay breakthrough. Arguably an atmosphere breakthrough as well. That one more turn feel of a fun and exciting game. They shouldn't bother if they can't figure that out. I don't want sequels for the sake of it.

Some ideas that I read in this thread were consolidated long ago in one of my threads, there's a link in my signature for anyone interested.


I'm okay with color coding, as long as it doesn't take a crap on the creatures (colored hair for Light Elementals, colored leafs for Sylvan Dragons and many other weird stuff).
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 15, 2020 11:40 AM

A thematic change would be nice, get rid of the almost totally human Knight/Castle/Haven and give us something that isn't medieval western Europe for a change. In fact, scrap most of the towns (and several of the races), and give us something new.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted May 15, 2020 11:44 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 11:45, 15 May 2020.

That ain't gonna look good to old fans. Reminds me too much of KB2. They should just make a new game series inspired by HoMM instead. And as we all know, the majority here is composed of old fans with a stable concept of how HoMM should be.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 15, 2020 12:40 PM
Edited by MattII at 13:15, 15 May 2020.

Mm, maybe. But remember, this is a sub-forum for creative discussion, so anything goes really. Also, I do actually agree with veteran_player that Heroes 3 is getting long in the tooth, and shouldn't be the be-all-and-end-all of Heroes games.

Just to put an idea out there, Mass spells aren't a thing (except selectively via perks, as in H5), but instead, spell schools allow a hero to cast a spell 2/3/4 times per round.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 15, 2020 01:18 PM
Edited by Galaad at 13:19, 15 May 2020.

Imo it's more about the general spirit that fans are attached to rather than a single unit or a theme town. Sanctuary was a completely new town and despite H6 being hated by most the town in itself was rather appreciated.
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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted May 15, 2020 04:10 PM

MattII said:
A thematic change would be nice, get rid of the almost totally human Knight/Castle/Haven and give us something that isn't medieval western Europe for a change. In fact, scrap most of the towns (and several of the races), and give us something new.


That's Songs of Conquest. The closest thing to the Castle town, Arleon, is explicitly an alliance of standard fantasy humans with the fae.

Hell, you can make a game that's mechanically Heroes but is science fiction rather than fantasy, same as the leap from Warcraft to Starcraft.
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted May 15, 2020 04:52 PM

Alon said:
MattII said:
A thematic change would be nice, get rid of the almost totally human Knight/Castle/Haven and give us something that isn't medieval western Europe for a change. In fact, scrap most of the towns (and several of the races), and give us something new.


That's Songs of Conquest. The closest thing to the Castle town, Arleon, is explicitly an alliance of standard fantasy humans with the fae.

Hell, you can make a game that's mechanically Heroes but is science fiction rather than fantasy, same as the leap from Warcraft to Starcraft.


I don't think HoM&M can be converted to science fiction successfully. But Starcraft certainly was and continues to be successful, maybe even more so than Heroes of Might & Magic.

Referencing back to some of my earlier posts, Sid Meyer's Alpha Centauri and Alien Crossfire were top-notch science-fiction releases and still have a cult following to this day!

Heroes is a completely different genre of TBS. Innovation is good, but the fantasy genre benefits most from its own innermost inherently creative nature.
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