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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8
Thread: a novel idea for reviving HoMM8 This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2020 05:10 PM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 17:17, 21 Jun 2020.

FirePaladin said:
Guys, visuals is a controversial topic. Yes, you can make it 3D and have the same charm, but you first need to find the right graphic style for the 3D models first. And this in itself is tough.


Yes, and I say that the style of the ubisoft Heroes games did not have the same charm, or any charm whatsoever, especially in H5.

Whether or not 3D works for HoMM with a DIFFERENT style than what we got so far is a question worth asking. But until someone actually makes such a game, I'll stick with 2D as the best option.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 21, 2020 06:29 PM
Edited by dj at 18:53, 21 Jun 2020.

@Monere,

I wouldnt give you a buck to develop a game, not with that mindset, sorry. You would fail as ubi failed. Have u forgotten that the developers created polls for months about any aspect of line-ups and factions? They DID listen to the community and that's what made them flop, now that i think of it. They DID have interest in the series. It's a mind set like yours that set things back and they listened to the conservative ideas of the fans. Ofc, they made some tweaks (core/elite/champion aspects etc) but, agains, there s not much in gameplay innovations.


And yes we should look at other games. It's a game industry, you have to adapt, take the good parts, evolve, grow. Things that you cant achieve with that mindset. It's called MARKETING and it s an important aspect of the game. Companies hire hundreds of people for that domain alone and invest money, showing the importance of marketing.

Did you know that there are 3D versions for each classic game you enumerated? There is a snake game in which you are a growing snake in a world...3D. Even snake adapted to the 3D world and you won't.

And u re still blind to see it. The fact that you dont like 3D graphics based on your limits and preferences (you cant see objects on maps, oversaturation etc) shows that you have only egoistic views which are limited.


And the fact that you greatly overlooked my other two innovations (time and MMO orientation) and you solely focused on the graphics shows how subjective and obssesed you are against 3D graphs.

Im glad that we re talking but we ve been talking about the same things instead of progressing. And it s you who keeps the discussion back cuz you wont let go.


Quote:

Whether or not 3D works for HoMM


It did work, in HoMM 5. The fact that YOU dont find it charming, it doesnt make it unsucessful.

---------------------
Leaving that behind, because i am tired of all the bad vibe:

Here is an innovative idea:

Make all unupgraded creature types neutral: dragon, horse, medusa (examples), roc, griffin, wyvern.

Their upgrades are according to the hero that they belong to.
Their upgrades are part of a faction.

Which means that:

If a dragon is controlled by a Druid/Ranger: it will be upgraded to an Earth Dragon
If controlled by a Priest: Light Dragon
If controlled by a Necromancer: Bone Dragon

If a horse is controlled by a Druid/Ranger: Unicorn
If a horse is controlled by a necromancer: Dread Steed
If controlled by a heretic: Fire Steed
If controlled by a water class (Aquamancer): Kelpie
etc.


If a medusa is controlled by a warlock: Medusa Queen
If controlled by a water class (AquamenceR): Naga/Siren


If a wyvern is controlled by a beastmaster: Wyvern Monarch (poisonous, wild type)
If a wyvern is controlled by a frost class: Winter Wyvern.

ETc. You get the point. The skilled up HERO can upgrade his troops ala sharpshooter/enchanter.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 21, 2020 06:56 PM
Edited by Galaad at 18:57, 21 Jun 2020.

dj said:
Have u forgotten that the developers created polls for months about any aspect of line-ups and factions? They DID listen to the community and that's what made them flop, now that i think of it.


Sorry again, but this makes me jump to the roof again. Maybe because I was involved during this "community process", and I think again you weren't. I don't disagree with everything you say but please stop making bold statements about things you just followed from afar. These lineup polls were a disaster. They literally separated favorite units and had community fight over it. They told us to **** off about 90% of the gameplay aspects. EVERYTHING they asked the community was only for marketing purpose and they did THE OPPOSITE of what community ACTUALLY asked, time and again, not only in forums but also from their VIP circle. You an ask Elvin or JollyJoker what they think about this, as they were part of the VIP group. In the end they just dismantled the VIP group anyway.

I don't say we shouldn't have an open mind for the future, but please be more enlightened about the past if you're going to say such things, especially regarding Ubi.
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2020 07:03 PM

dj said:


It did work, in HoMM 5. The fact that YOU dont find it charming, it doesnt make it unsucessful.





For me it didn't "work" at all. That the game sold copies doesn't matter to my personal enjoyment at all.

But as you said, let's leave it at that...
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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2020 07:08 PM

Had I waited for you to give me money I'd starve now, so don't sweat about it.

Also, my mindset is the mindset of someone who can create something groundbreaking. Your mindset on the other hand (with all of the whining about the best game in the franchise and all that junk) leaves a lot to desire for.

Third thing, you've said it yourself: "the devs have failed because they have listened to the fans". Which is exactly what I am not doing. I have my own ideas, and I am capable of putting them into something marvelous because I have the qualities for that: I like creating dilemmas, and I am also a VERY critical person (critical, like in I like finding - and when I don't find them I create them - critical angles, points of view, etc. in everything that piques my interest).

I think these 2 qualities, when combined with my desire to make a TBS strategy game like Heroes, and when I have the calling for it (time will tell if I have a calling for this) and the resources to do it... I will create something that will put you, and all other skeptics on 2 rows (as Romanians say).

The trick to creating a great strategy game like Heroes, as I've already mentioned in an earlier post is to accomplish 3 things, in THIS order:

1) create great strategy
2) create infinite replayability
3) create fun (and in a game like Heroes the fun comes from mixing replayability and deep strategy along with a few other ingredients in the right proportions, which I'm not gonna go into detail about because of reasons).

I could explain more and you would end up being as amazed as I am by my own ideas, but I'm not wasting my time with you. Besides, I don't want to give my ideas away to anybody. As I've said many times on this forum I either create something that awes God himself, or take the entire concept with me in the grave... whichever comes first. I've never been a man of compromise, so I'm not compromising my most valuable dream to prove to random strangers online that I have the right mindset to create something extraordinary. In case you didn't know, mankind's greatest minds have had to fight the narrow minds of the masses, and to aim and dream further than the masses could see. And I am one of those minds, I feel the potential deep inside of me. I just need to let it out somehow, and at the right time.

And now that I've cooled down, let me address your other filler content:

Quote:
And yes we should look at other games
you should look at other games, not me. If I want to create something amazing I need to get out of the box and not take inspiration from anywhere... IF I am destined to create something amazing, that is. Otherwise, if I just want to create a mainstream game I could look at other games, yes. But I rarely aim for the ordinary, and never when it comes to my precious dreams. My dreams need to be extraordinary, or not exist at all. That's how I see it.

Quote:
It's a game industry, you have to adapt, take the good parts, evolve, grow
you have to evolve, adapt and grow in anything you do in life, not just video games. Finally something that I agree with you, despite of your pessimistic mindset

Quote:
Things that you cant achieve with that mindset
My mindset is the right mindset for now. In 2-3 years it will be even more suited to achieving great things (unless I die, of course). Just because you can't see things my way doesn't mean that mindset is wrong. Quite the opposite - and I'm saying this without the slightest intention of upsetting, or insulting you - your mindset is the wrong one here

Quote:
Did you know that there are 3D versions for each classic game you enumerated? There is a snake game in which you are a growing snake in a world...3D. Even snake adapted to the 3D world and you won't
I think I remember having seen one of them at some point. And even if they are all 3D I don't care cause I'm not a fan of those games. Ok, I am a fan of Sudoku, and I wouldn't want sudoku to be butchered by using 3D, but all others I don't care about. They can make them VR-ready and I wouldn't care a bit

Quote:
And u re still blind to see it
well, I do wear glasses (and quite big dioptres, too) ... But anyway, jokes aside what I am blind to see?? Elaborate!

Quote:
The fact that you dont like 3D graphics based on your limits and preferences (you cant see objects on maps, oversaturation etc) shows that you have only egoistic views which are limited
first of all, I DO like 3D graphics, just not in HoMM (call me old-fashioned, but I got used to 2D and I stick to that). Secondly, what has the fact that 3D graphics hurt my eyes and alter the perception of the game anything to do with being egoistic?

Quote:
And the fact that you greatly overlooked my other two innovations
"greatly overlooked" HAHA. Good one I don't even know what you are talking about, cause I didn't follow this thread start to finish. I think the first time I clicked on this thread's link is when it already had 7 pages of content, so I navigated straight to page number 7. So, if I missed any of your ramblings it's because I genuinely missed them, not because I "greatly overlooked" them lol.

Quote:
you solely focused on the graphics shows how subjective and obssesed you are against 3D graphs
of course I am subjective in my statements, cause they are MY statements. And the same goes for you, and everyone else on this planet. When we state our opinions they are obviously ours, which makes those opinions subjective. Just like I am subjective when I say that I don't like 3D (only in games like Heroes, though, and I don't know how many more times I need to say it before you get it) so are you subjective when you whine about 3D. We are both subjective, and I see nothing wrong with that.

Quote:
Im glad that we re talking but we ve been talking about the same things instead of progressing
any ideas on how we can "progress" in making a new, improved HoMM game? Cause if you present me with a plan that is already in motion and which is delayed by my conversation with you I swear that I'll stop replying

Quote:
And it s you who keeps the discussion back cuz you wont let go
let go of what? Of sharing my opinion? If that's what you mean, sorry to disappoint but I'm free to share my opinion on whatever I want, whenever I want, whether or not you like it.

Quote:
It did work, in HoMM 5. The fact that YOU dont find it charming, it doesnt make it unsucessful
OK
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 21, 2020 07:17 PM
Edited by dj at 19:41, 21 Jun 2020.

Galaad said:
dj said:
Have u forgotten that the developers created polls for months about any aspect of line-ups and factions? They DID listen to the community and that's what made them flop, now that i think of it.


Sorry again, but this makes me jump to the roof again. Maybe because I was involved during this "community process", and I think again you weren't. I don't disagree with everything you say but please stop making bold statements about things you just followed from afar. These lineup polls were a disaster. They literally separated favorite units and had community fight over it. They told us to **** off about 90% of the gameplay aspects. EVERYTHING they asked the community was only for marketing purpose and they did THE OPPOSITE of what community ACTUALLY asked, time and again, not only in forums but also from their VIP circle. You an ask Elvin or JollyJoker what they think about this, as they were part of the VIP group. In the end they just dismantled the VIP group anyway.

I don't say we shouldn't have an open mind for the future, but please be more enlightened about the past if you're going to say such things, especially regarding Ubi.



U re right.

And it doesnt really matter if MMH6/7 flopped or not.

What we have to do is to learn from this.

I, one, can extract a few conclusions from this:
1. Keeping the HoMM 3 formula + good graphs is not enough (i never said they are); more aspects of the game should be added and the existing ones to be made more complex
2. Town screens are part of the heroes formula <- we saw that the lack of town screen provoked an outrage haha


And i can list a few important heroes domains:
1. Heroes themselves (with skills and magic schools)
2. Creatures (abilities)
3. Town (buildings)
4. Adventure (resources and mines, buildings)
5. Battleground

6. Lore

Any other domains that are important to the series?

It is extremly hard to design a game and it is even harder to have people who draw you back in endless conversations about preferences when preferences and what a game needs are not the same.

Nobody will even look at your game if your graphics suck compared to the current ones and you wont make money out of a limited number of die hard fans while other games get money from younger generations (who are exponentially more than us) and surpass your game. Ubi faced the same issue.

You have to balance the preferences of old fans and new fans. That's why HoMM faces these issues.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 21, 2020 07:23 PM

I agree. Lore is also an important domain but maybe it felt too evident for you to actually mention it.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 21, 2020 07:36 PM
Edited by dj at 19:48, 21 Jun 2020.

Haha, cute. U re right.

I overlooked it because lore is probably the least exploited domain in HoMM 3.

Imagine this:

You enter the game, in the SELECTION screen in a Single Scenario.

You pick your  side: good / evil / neutral

Good gives access to the following flags (not red, blue, green, but Faction Flags)

humans: the Golden Griffin flag
elves: the Green Leaf flag
wizards: the Blue Eye

NOTE: your allies cannot pick the evil side.


If you pick human: you have access to Houses (Organizations, in general, for orcs would be CLANS)

1. House of the Wolf
2. House of the Griffin
3. House of the Stag
4. House of the Steed
5. House of the Dragon
6. House of the Lion

Each house would provide you the beast in your line -up which it represents.

So, if you pick the house of the Wolf, you have access to a few heroes. These heroes get abilities from the wolf and at a big level, it can become a Werewolf.

Another lore aspect:

QUESTS from inside the city:
Townsfolk and blacksmither and mayor etc give you internal quests to kill specific creatures, gather resources, acquire a specific level.



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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted June 21, 2020 09:46 PM

dj said:
Leaving that behind, because i am tired of all the bad vibe:

Here is an innovative idea:

Make all unupgraded creature types neutral: dragon, horse, medusa (examples), roc, griffin, wyvern.

Their upgrades are according to the hero that they belong to.
Their upgrades are part of a faction.

Which means that:

If a dragon is controlled by a Druid/Ranger: it will be upgraded to an Earth Dragon
If controlled by a Priest: Light Dragon
If controlled by a Necromancer: Bone Dragon

If a horse is controlled by a Druid/Ranger: Unicorn
If a horse is controlled by a necromancer: Dread Steed
If controlled by a heretic: Fire Steed
If controlled by a water class (Aquamancer): Kelpie
etc.


If a medusa is controlled by a warlock: Medusa Queen
If controlled by a water class (AquamenceR): Naga/Siren


If a wyvern is controlled by a beastmaster: Wyvern Monarch (poisonous, wild type)
If a wyvern is controlled by a frost class: Winter Wyvern.

ETc. You get the point. The skilled up HERO can upgrade his troops ala sharpshooter/enchanter.
Had an idea like this myself at one point.

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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted June 21, 2020 10:20 PM
Edited by watcher83 at 23:09, 21 Jun 2020.

Guys I do not mean to state the obvious here but homm7 flopped because it was an unfinished bugfest sorry excuse of a game and when the community stated the obvious the developers basically called us entitled never pleased tards who cannot understand the greatness of their game.More than a year later with the expansion coming out the game was still borderline unplayable due to bugs whom nobody bothered with, then the game was "thrown" by ubi, leaving it just like homm6 an unfinished, unpolished, buggy, with too few playable factions but this time in a worse state.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted June 21, 2020 10:29 PM

One correction: HoMM7 had plenty of factions.
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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted June 21, 2020 11:09 PM

plenty -2
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 21, 2020 11:22 PM
Edited by Galaad at 23:23, 21 Jun 2020.

Imo it's too easy to excuse poor game design and missing the whole touch of the series because the product was an unplayable bugfest. Sure, not only it sucked, but also it was unplayable. I'm sure had it been playable it would have still flopped.
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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted June 21, 2020 11:33 PM
Edited by watcher83 at 23:39, 21 Jun 2020.

I wasn't defending homm7, was just saying that talking about bad design is not even necesary when the game is unplayable. If ubi bothered to finish their products then we could judge them by their design.

Conclusion - I have been with the series since 1995 and sure a well designed new game would be great, but I stopped dreaming about M&M a few years ago. Now I would settle for a remastered homm7 or homm6 with all the 9 factions playable and with no bugs; maybe toss in a cool map editor and some ylath neutral creatures.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted June 22, 2020 12:50 PM

As to WoG, it had a number of fairly decent ideas (and plenty of not-so-good ones as well), but boy was it a mess. It wasn't so much a mod as a bunch of pick-and-choose mini-mods.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 22, 2020 03:11 PM
Edited by Galaad at 15:12, 22 Jun 2020.

That's the beauty of wog though, a strong tool for modders to create all kinds of mods and the ability for the player to turn them on or off according to his preference.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted June 22, 2020 03:37 PM

I don't remember being able to disable all WoG specific stuff.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 22, 2020 04:36 PM

Get pure SoD mod.
Yes, it's a wog mod disabling anything wog-related.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted June 22, 2020 04:37 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 16:38, 22 Jun 2020.

Oh, so that exists. I forgot about it.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 22, 2020 04:44 PM
Edited by dj at 16:48, 22 Jun 2020.

MattII said:
dj said:
Had an idea like this myself at one point.


I did not know that. I didnt steal it, i swear

So, if two people have the same idea, then i think it's safe to say that it could be good.


Also, another important dimension, learning from WoG, is modability/complex map editor.

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